A Tale of Two Eucharists

[MaryJohnZ]

Have you ever been fooled by your feelings, Mary? You would not say, for example, that on the days you do not feel Jesus is near, that He must not be near. He’s there whether you feel Him or not. In fact, isn’t God always near, whether you are at Mass or not? Isn’t he just a prayer away, even if you feel far from Him?

It seems to me that feelings ebb and flow like the tide, but the reality is that God is always present. At least, that’s what Jesus tells me.

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.*-- Jesus (John:14)*http://i.pbase.com/g4/82/265582/3/62021093.DXXC8R7U.jpg

That is true, Christ as a supernatural being is omnipresent…everywhere. But the fact that He has given Himself a way to be physically present in the Blessed Sacrament means that He allows me to come to Him…in more than the one way of spiritually going to Him through prayer or thought.

Feelings can be deceiving it is true yet the Prophet found God in the s,allest breeze, and I believe that if you strive for holiness your spirit can become atuned to what is Holy as well as atuned to evil. I believe that is part of developing the 'inner senses".

Besides, would it make sense for early Christians to die to protect the Blessed Sacrament if they thought it was only symbolic?

Sometimes God does leave you to yourself and you live by faith without any special feelings, but that is part of being faithful just like in marriage.

There have been enough reported miracles and signs all over the world through the centuries to prove that the Blessed Sacrament is Christ’s presence. I had a dream when I was in Medugorje as well.

I saw a large crowds of people all streaming toward a mountain, so I woke up and folowed after them. They went up the side of the mountain and there was a large white round shape pressed into the side of the mountain. All the people stood in a circle around the shape. I woke up in the morning and of course realized the shape was the Eucharist or Host. I felt the dream was special but it took 17 years for me to understand the whole thing. Last fall when I was on a Carmelite retreat they passed our posters that were made in 1996, about 6 years after I had my dream. The poster illustrated St. Alberts Rule. In the center of the Poster was a large white round shape representing the Blessed Sacrament.
Around it was a gold rim. When the priest said the gold rim was all the Carmelites and hermits who have stood* around* the Presence of God from the beginning I understood I was looking at a graphic representation of what I had dreamed. The poster represented Mt. Carmel with the white shape of the Eucharistic presence pressed into it and the centuries of contemplatives standing around it.

I believe deep in my heart my dream came from God. It took 17 years for me to have it fully explained. Although I believe it perhaps means God is calling back all His family to be around one table, around One Holy Tabernacle. jesu is truly present in the eucharist.

That is my witness.

God Bless, maryJohnZ

 

[blossom02]

Your welcome Socrates.

 

[toaslan]

What about Jesus’ comment to Nichodemus, ToAslan?

3In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” 5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
(John 4)

Isn’t this proof of salvation, at least to the one who experiences it?

Sorry, Soc:

Isn’t what proof of salvation?

experiences what?

I see in the passage hope of salvation, that it is possible to be saved by being this mysterious thing called being born again from above.

 

[toaslan]

Thanks, MaryJohnZ, for your wonderful posts. This one about your huge dream is lovely. Yes, the Host, focus of contemplation, surrounded by us joining all the centuries of contemplatives ringing Him in golden reverence.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

That is true, Christ as a supernatural being is omnipresent…everywhere. But the fact that He has given Himself a way to be physically present in the Blessed Sacrament means that He allows me to come to Him…in more than the one way of spiritually going to Him through prayer or thought.

Feelings can be deceiving it is true yet the Prophet found God in the s,allest breeze, and I believe that if you strive for holiness your spirit can become atuned to what is Holy as well as atuned to evil. I believe that is part of developing the 'inner senses".

Besides, would it make sense for early Christians to die to protect the Blessed Sacrament if they thought it was only symbolic?

Sometimes God does leave you to yourself and you live by faith without any special feelings, but that is part of being faithful just like in marriage.

There have been enough reported miracles and signs all over the world through the centuries to prove that the Blessed Sacrament is Christ’s presence. I had a dream when I was in Medugorje as well.

I saw a large crowds of people all streaming toward a mountain, so I woke up and folowed after them. They went up the side of the mountain and there was a large white round shape pressed into the side of the mountain. All the people stood in a circle around the shape. I woke up in the morning and of course realized the shape was the Eucharist or Host. I felt the dream was special but it took 17 years for me to understand the whole thing. Last fall when I was on a Carmelite retreat they passed our posters that were made in 1996, about 6 years after I had my dream. The poster illustrated St. Alberts Rule. In the center of the Poster was a large white round shape representing the Blessed Sacrament.
Around it was a gold rim. When the priest said the gold rim was all the Carmelites and hermits who have stood* around* the Presence of God from the beginning I understood I was looking at a graphic representation of what I had dreamed. The poster represented Mt. Carmel with the white shape of the Eucharistic presence pressed into it and the centuries of contemplatives standing around it.

I believe deep in my heart my dream came from God. It took 17 years for me to have it fully explained. Although I believe it perhaps means God is calling back all His family to be around one table, around One Holy Tabernacle. jesu is truly present in the eucharist.

That is my witness.

God Bless, maryJohnZ

Thank you, Mary, for sharing that with me. Your mention of the Carmelites reminds me of Mount Carmel in Israel.

I’ve been to Israel and sat at the top of Mount Carmel, where Peter and the other two saw Jesus light up and heard the Father speak. The view from there is breathtaking. I could see for miles and miles. I felt far away from the people below, and i was given a better understanding of why Jesus chose to go to the top of mountains to get away and pray.

http://greatcommission.com/israel/MountCarmelViewOfValley.jpg

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Sorry, Soc:

Isn’t what proof of salvation?

experiences what?

I see in the passage hope of salvation, that it is possible to be saved by being this mysterious thing called being born again from above.

Sorry for the confusion ToAslan! I forget that most Roman Catholics have always been Roman Catholics and that few have converted. In contrast, in some non-Catholic churches, few there have always been Christians and most have converted. Thieves, gang members, convicts, drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, and others experience life-transforming events. They leave their old lives behind and begin new lives. People who used to know them are amazed by the change, or think it’s merely a con. But those who have been changed from the inside, out know better.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!*(2 Corinthians 5:17)*I’m not criticizing those who have always remained faithful to Jesus. It’s better to have always loved, then to have been lost before discovering His love. I’m just saying that Jesus seems to be making the point that when a dramatic change of thoughts, words and deeds occurs, it is good evidence of the miracle of the Holy Spirit changing a person’s life.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… My position is that “no miracles” are subject to empirical proof, including the miracle of the Eucharist and the others you and Soc have listed.

The best we can expect to prove is that there** was** an observable change in the “material accidents” (is this even a term?) associated with the objects of some miracles.

The presence of a physical change or lack there of, however, can never prove or disprove that a miracle has taken place.

It can only demonstrate that there was a physical change, we cannot determine if it was an action of God or not scientifically.

So even if I can “prove beyond a reasonable doubt” that an unexplained physical event took place, I cannot “prove” that the explanation lies with God.

Chuck

mir·a·cle/ˈmɪrəkəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationmir-uh-kuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
*–noun *
1.
an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.

I can see your point, Chuck, and it is a good one! For even though i’m not yet fully convinced you are correct, experience tells me that some people, no matter how compelling the evidence i present, remind blind as a bat to the truth!



My fear is that the same fate will effect my spiritual eyes, so i’m trying to keep them wide open to see what i might have missed.

I do agree with you that miracles often have some observable evidence of some physical change. Definition (1) from the dictionary you cited appears to agree, too. Consider Jesus’ first miracle–turning water into wine. What was water certainly did not look, smell or taste like water after Jesus made the miraculous change. And while critics might cry foul, saying it never was water; you and i, trusting Jesus as we do, know better.

 

[teadough]

Sorry for the confusion ToAslan! I forget that most Roman Catholics have always been Roman Catholics and that few have converted. In contrast, in some non-Catholic churches, few there have always been Christians and most have converted. Thieves, gang members, convicts, drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, and others experience life-transforming events. They leave their old lives behind and begin new lives. People who used to know them are amazed by the change, or think it’s merely a con. But those who have been changed from the inside, out know better.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!*(2 Corinthians 5:17)*I’m not criticizing those who have always remained faithful to Jesus. It’s better to have always loved, then to have been lost before discovering His love. I’m just saying that Jesus seems to be making the point that when a dramatic change of thoughts, words and deeds occurs, it is good evidence of the miracle of the Holy Spirit changing a person’s life.

You almost make it sound as if you really knew what you were talking about.

It’s better to have always loved, then to have been lost before discovering His love.

I bet you think that sounds really deep. It’s kind of like one of those sentences that look good on paper but when you think about it you realize it make no sense.

People leave the types of churches you talk about all the time.

Thieves, gang members, convicts, drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, and others experience life-transforming events. They leave their old lives behind and begin new lives.

People leave those types of lifestyles behind without ever having any sort of Faith is Jesus.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

So i ask myself, “Soc, just what about the water did Jesus change?” Did substance of the water (if there is such as thing as substance) change? If it did, then what is the substance of water? i wonder. For, if i can figure out what that is, then my hope is that i’ll be closer to discovering the truth of what the substance of the Eucharist is.

So i ask God, “Lord, you know everything. Please tell me what it is that you changed when you made water, wine.” He seems to be telling me to start with what i know. What i know about water is that it has the chemical structure of molecules consisting of two hydrogen atoms bonded with one oxygen atom.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

What i know about wine is that it consists, in part, of what water does not–ethyl alcohol (i.e., ethanol).

http://chimge.unil.ch/En/scnat/images/image29.gif

And this molecular structure is certainly different from water, and reminds me of my dog.



So Jesus, when He changing water into wine, must have at least added carbon atoms to the water by some miraculous method. This leads me to my question for you, Chuck, and you ToAslan, and anyone who is good enough to offer her best guess.

My question is this: Did Jesus change the substance of the water to make it wine?

 

[teadough]

Socrates4Jesus;3503567] no matter how compelling the evidence i present, remind blind as a bat to the truth!

You have not presented any compelling evidence throught out this thread my friend. You are trying your best to sound shcolarly but what you don’t realize is that the only person you have convinced is you. You have,in a sense,blown your own mind.

God Bless You and may Christ open your heart

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I bet you think that sounds really deep. It’s kind of like one of those sentences that look good on paper but when you think about it you realize it make no sense.
…

Perhaps, Tea. I often say things about which i have no idea what they mean. Do you think the proverb that came to me just now makes sense in the context of this passage?

11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17"When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21"The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22"But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

– Jesus (Luke 15)

 

[teadough]

So i ask myself, “Soc, just what about the water did Jesus change?” Did substance of the water (if there is such as thing as substance) change? If it did, then what is the substance of water? i wonder. For, if i can figure out what that is, then my hope is that i’ll be closer to discovering the truth of what the substance of the Eucharist is.

So i ask God, “Lord, you know everything. Please tell me what it is that you changed when you made water, wine.” He seems to be telling me to start with what i know. What i know about water is that it has the chemical structure of molecules consisting of two hydrogen atoms bonded with one oxygen atom.

http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistry/tutorials/chemistry/graphics/water.gif

What i know about wine is that it consists, in part, of what water does not–ethyl alcohol (i.e., ethanol).

http://chimge.unil.ch/En/scnat/images/image29.gif

And this molecular structure is certainly different from water, and reminds me of my dog.



So Jesus, when He changing water into wine, must have at least added carbon atoms to the water by some miraculous method. This leads me to my question for you, Chuck, and you ToAslan, and anyone who is good enough to offer her best guess.

My question is this: Did Jesus change the substance of the water to make it wine?

Your Water theory is silly when you think about it. You have not even taken into consideration all of the microorganisms that would have been in the water in that time period

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Your Water theory is silly when you think about it. You have not even taken into consideration all of the microorganisms that would have been in the water in that time period

Do you believe a Roman Catholic should do his best to obey the first Pope Peter, Tea?

 

[teadough]

Perhaps, Tea. I often say things about which i have no idea what they mean. Do you think the proverb that came to me just now makes sense in the context of this passage?

11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17"When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21"The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22"But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

– Jesus (Luke 15)

You were trying to make a comparison to Catholics who have not loved,so the answer is no. the proverb makes very little sense.

 

[teadough]

Do you believe a Roman Catholic should do his best to obey the first Pope Peter, Tea?

Oh,gee. I wonder if you are going to try and trick me with one line of passage from St.Peter so as to make me think I am in the wrong for converting to the Catholic faith?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Oh,gee. I wonder if you are going to try and trick me with one line of passage from St.Peter so as to make me think I am in the wrong for converting to the Catholic faith?

Nothing like that, Tea. I just thought maybe you’d consider thinking about what Peter’s words mean to you:

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect …

(1 Peter 3:15)

 

[teadough]

Nothing like that, Tea. I just thought maybe you’d consider thinking about what Peter’s words mean to you:

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect …

(1 Peter 3:15)

Oh,they mean a lot to me. Thanks be to God

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Thank you, Mary, for sharing that with me. Your mention of the Carmelites reminds me of Mount Carmel in Israel.

I’ve been to Israel and sat at the top of Mount Carmel, where Peter and the other two saw Jesus light up and heard the Father speak. The view from there is breathtaking. I could see for miles and miles. I felt far away from the people below, and i was given a better understanding of why Jesus chose to go to the top of mountains to get away and pray.

http://greatcommission.com/israel/MountCarmelViewOfValley.jpg

That is the Mt. Carmel associated with the Carmelite order which traces its spirituality back to Elijah. It is the mountain wher God brought fire down to prove he is the God of israel and has true power, not like the pagan idols. I am wondering from my dream, since it did occur to me that the round shape could come from a meteor or something like that… if God is going to call fire down on His moutain again. But all that is pure personal speculation as I do not claim to be a messanger or prophet with a message I am directed to give people. But I do know that God has said at various places through others that He is going to give permanent signs that he is God so people no longer waunder in disbelief.

But at any rate…I thought Mt. Tabor was the Moutain of Transfiguration…

GodBless, maryJohnZ

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Your welcome Socrates.

It’s good to get a sweet smelling thought from someone who cares.



http://photos.igougo.com/images/p215006-Washington_D.C-Colorful_Cherry_Blossoms.JPG

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

http://greatcommission.com/israel/MountCarmelViewOfValley.jpg

That is the Mt. Carmel associated with the Carmelite order which traces its spirituality back to Elijah. It is the mountain wher God brought fire down to prove he is the God of israel and has true power, not like the pagan idols. I am wondering from my dream, since it did occur to me that the round shape could come from a meteor or something like that… if God is going to call fire down on His moutain again. But all that is pure personal speculation as I do not claim to be a messanger or prophet with a message I am directed to give people. But I do know that God has said at various places through others that He is going to give permanent signs that he is God so people no longer waunder in disbelief.

But at any rate…I thought Mt. Tabor was the Moutain of Transfiguration…

GodBless, maryJohnZ

Some Protestants think that the valley pictured will be the place of the last battle on earth where the armies of the anti-Christ will be defeated by the armies of Jesus. I’m not so sure their Futurist view of Revelation is correct, but i’ve been told that the the French general Napoleon did say that this valley would be the perfect place to have a battle.

At the top of the mountain is a small Catholic church. I thought it was beautiful inside at the time i visited.