A Tale of Two Eucharists

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I agree with a poster (was it #52?) who said something to the effedt that S4Jesus doesn’t really want an answer…

What is funny (strange) is… even though i have not read every single post (Who has time for that???) I have yet to find out what kind of person this Socrates4Jesus even is… I mean, we don’t know whta religion, if any, he was raised in, what religion he goes by now… nothing of the age bracket he is in… Nothing…

True, i haven’t read all the posts… and i am not going to…
I felt i read enough of them after about the first 10.
 
davidv said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

… I do, however, think that contrasting the two philosophies will facilitate discussion. Please tell me why definitions (A2) and (B2) are not true.A2. The individual substances of a physical object are atoms. These atoms, when bonded together to form the physical object, give the physical object observable properties. The physical object can gain and lose some atoms whilst itself enduring, but it can never exist without any atoms.B2. The substance of a physical object is being as in the whatness underlying or causing the physical object. It is the atoms of that object, which together are its form, definition, essence and nature. Accidents inhere in the physical object; it inheres in atoms.

I believe that neither are true because they both deny the existance of the immaterial.
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They might if one claimed that the only substances are physical substances. So i should add these two definitions to the other two:

**C2. The individual substance of an immaterial object is not atoms. The immaterial object is one and cannot be divided or added to another immaterial object. It can change its properties whilst itself enduring, but it can never cease to endure.**D2. The substance of an immaterial object is being as in the whatness underlying or causing the physical object. It is its form, definition, essence and nature. Accidents inhere in the immaterial object; it inheres in nothing but itself. It is one and cannot be divided or added to another immaterial object. It is immortal and cannot cease to exist.

I believe one might accept all four definitions without denying the existence of souls, spirits, angels, demons, or God. Do you think so, too? or do you think (C2) and (D2) contradict (A2) and (B2)?
 
clmowry said:
… To answer the question at hand, we have a more difficult task than “simply” identifying the “essence” and “individual substances” which make up a Human. We need to be able to identify the substance or essence of God: One God in 3 persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Or more specifically, what is the essence of the “Glorified Body of Christ”.

For the question at hand, I think, is: Is the “Body of Christ” “substantially” present in the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist of the Catholic Church?

I am not sure if this helps or confuses the issue, but, it may be important to not that the Church claims that Christ is substantially and fully present in both the Bread and the Wine. That is, either physical object, which is obviously made up of an entirely different set of types of atoms is Christ.

Chuck
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I’m looking for common ground here, Chuck. Yes i agree that God is one God in three persons. This, of course, is no contradiction, because God is not one God in three Gods, nor is God one person in three persons. Rather, God is one what in three whos. Now, if you asked me to tell you whether God is one substance, or three, or more, i might blow my mind! I do not think, however, that we have to dive that deep into the sea of incomprehensibility.

We can stay near the shore, closer to the assurance of what we know about ourselves, and not confuse the body of Jesus with the Spirit of the Son of God. For i think it is the Catholic belief that God is not man and man is not God. So God has two natures: He is 100% man and 100% God, and the two natures never mix. They are still distinct from one another. Jesus, who was in the flesh, said:

“God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” *(John 4:24)*In light of this, i’d suggest the question you should ask should be modified slightly: “Since the body of Christ is substantially physical, how can its atoms be present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist of the Catholic Church?”

🤷
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
“Since the body of Christ is substantially physical, how can its atoms be present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist of the Catholic Church?”

🤷
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The atoms of the bread and wine are the form of the substance of Jesus Christ (body and blood, soul and divinity) in the Eucharist.
 
jmcrae said:
The atoms of the bread and wine are the form of the substance of Jesus Christ (body and blood, soul and divinity) in the Eucharist.
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I’m not sure i’m understanding you, correctly, JM. Are you suggesting that Jesus is the host?

🤷
 
Over three hundred posts ago I mentioned that I felt like we had already reached the limits of the philosophical understanding of substance and accidents. I think that all of the posts following that one have validated that view.

Perhaps another look at things from a more basic and biblical approach will be helpful in determining if the miracle of the Eucharist is indeed real.

There seems to be a general consensus on how accidents are easily observed as changing without affecting the substance. The classic example used on this thread involves water as a liquid, then a sold, and finally as a gas. So we all should be able to agree that changes can occur in the accidents even while the substance remains unchanged.

The next issue is the changing of the substance of something. Scripture gives us clear examples of miraculous changes in substances. In Exodus 4:3 we read about the rod of Moses turning into a serpent when Moses cast it on the ground. We then read that it turns back into a rod when Moses grasps the serpent by the tail. Later in verse 9, God tells Moses that if Pharoah does not accept the first signs, he is to then “take some water from the Nile and pour it upon the dry ground; and the water which you shall take from the Nile will become blood upon the dry ground.” Later in Exodus chapter 7, Moses turns the Nile river into blood.

In Genesis 19:26 we read that Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt.

At the marriage feast of Cana Jesus turns water into wine.

All of these instances show the power of God at work. God changing the substances of some things and even the substance of a person into some other substance.

We also learn in the NT that, in some unexplainable sense, the substance of Jesus body is changed. Jesus now has a “glorified” body that is different from the earthly body that He shared with the rest of humanity. Paul says in 1 Cor 15:51-52 that “we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” We too will have glorified bodies that are somehow changed from the way they are now.

We will still be the “persons” that we have always been. We will still be defined as human beings. We will be like angels in some ways, but we will not be angels. The essence of what we are will remain. The change that we undergo, however, will not be a simple change in the accidents. The change to a heavenly saint with a glorified body is much more profound than a change in the accidents. It is conceivable that we will even have some new/additional accidents to go along with our glorified bodies.

If all of this is true, then it seems clear that Jesus can and will give us His promised body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist. The questions shouldn’t be about the logic and the science. The questions should be about the intent of Jesus and his purpose.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
“Since the body of Christ is substantially physical, how can its atoms be present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist of the Catholic Church?”

🤷
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How do you know that the “ressurected Body of Christ” is “subtantially physical” or that it is so in the same way as yous and mine?

Chuck
 
Pax said:
The questions should be about the intent of Jesus and his purpose.
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How do you all figure that the message from Christ has become so complicated? Did He bring a message for all people or for just the intellectually gifted?
 
Pax said:
Over three hundred posts ago I mentioned that I felt like we had already reached the limits of the philosophical understanding of substance and accidents. I think that all of the posts following that one have validated that view.

Perhaps another look at things from a more basic and biblical approach will be helpful in determining if the miracle of the Eucharist is indeed real. …
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Well, i still have much to learn about the substance of the Eucharist, Pax. However, i agree that the basics are a good place to start.

👍
 
Pax said:
… There seems to be a general consensus on how accidents are easily observed as changing without affecting the substance. The classic example used on this thread involves water as a liquid, then a sold, and finally as a gas. So we all should be able to agree that changes can occur in the accidents even while the substance remains unchanged.
…
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Agreed.
 
Pax said:
… The next issue is the changing of the substance of something. Scripture gives us clear examples of miraculous changes in substances. In Exodus 4:3 we read about the rod of Moses turning into a serpent when Moses cast it on the ground. We then read that it turns back into a rod when Moses grasps the serpent by the tail. Later in verse 9, God tells Moses that if Pharoah does not accept the first signs, he is to then “take some water from the Nile and pour it upon the dry ground; and the water which you shall take from the Nile will become blood upon the dry ground.” Later in Exodus chapter 7, Moses turns the Nile river into blood.

In Genesis 19:26 we read that Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt.

At the marriage feast of Cana Jesus turns water into wine.

All of these instances show the power of God at work. God changing the substances of some things and even the substance of a person into some other substance. …
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True.
 
Pax said:
… We also learn in the NT that, in some unexplainable sense, the substance of Jesus body is changed. Jesus now has a “glorified” body that is different from the earthly body that He shared with the rest of humanity. Paul says in 1 Cor 15:51-52 that “we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” We too will have glorified bodies that are somehow changed from the way they are now.
…
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Yes, looking forward to that! No more getting older, losing my hair.

😃

I like how John records it:

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

(Revelation 21)
 
It’s not. My 6 year old gets it because she believes me when I say that Jesus (the Bible) and the Church tell me so.

It takes the intellectually gifted to make it very complicated and the more gifted you ae the more complicated you can make it.

It’s not neccessary that we know the how or why of a mystery in order to believe, but smart folks just gotta know.

Chuck
Namesake said:
How do you all figure that the message from Christ has become so complicated? Did He bring a message for all people or for just the intellectually gifted?
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Pax said:
… We will still be the “persons” that we have always been. We will still be defined as human beings. We will be like angels in some ways, but we will not be angels. The essence of what we are will remain. The change that we undergo, however, will not be a simple change in the accidents. The change to a heavenly saint with a glorified body is much more profound than a change in the accidents. It is conceivable that we will even have some new/additional accidents to go along with our glorified bodies.

…
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In what sense will we be the same, Pax? In soul? In body?

🤷

It seems to me that an immortal body is not the same as a mortal one. A soul never again tempted by sin will not be the same as a sinful one.

The only thing that i think might possibly be the same are the memories, both of the good and the bad. Which is one reason why i think Jesus will wipe the tears from our eyes–bitter tears of regret mixed with grateful tears of joy.

“He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

(Revelation 21:4)
 
But what am i saying? Lord forgive me for making Him out to be a liar!

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

(Revelation 21:5)

Since He will make everything new, not even my tears of regret will remain. I imagine that when Jesus wipes them away, the memories will be wiped away as well.

🙂

Yes, i’m looking forward to that day.
 
Pax said:
… If all of this is true, then it seems clear that Jesus can and will give us His promised body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist. The questions shouldn’t be about the logic and the science. The questions should be about the intent of Jesus and his purpose.
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Yes, i agree. All of it true, except the bit about you or i remaining the same.

👍
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Well, i still have much to learn about the substance of the Eucharist, Pax. However, i agree that the basics are a good place to start.

👍
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Are the heart of these basics are Christ’s own words:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears myword and believes him who sent me, has eternal life
Jn 5:24
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We have already shared what Jesus says about the offering of the bread and wine “…this is my body…this is my blood…”

These are the basics. Either we trust Him and believe or not.
 
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