A Tale of Two Eucharists

  • Thread starter Thread starter Socrates4Jesus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Namesake said:
How do you all figure that the message from Christ has become so complicated? Did He bring a message for all people or for just the intellectually gifted?
Click to expand...
I don’t believe that the message from Christ is all that complicated. Miracles can, however, be hard to believe and not all of scripture is easy to understand.

The apostle Peter says the following about scripture:

2 Peter 1:20-21
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

The apostle then goes on to say this:

2 Peter 3:15-16
So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Another thing to keep in mind is that scripture has incredible depth. It cannot be exhausted. That is one of the beautiful things about scripture and getting to know the Lord. The spiritual beauty and meaning is never shallow…it is always profound.

I hope this helps.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
In what sense will we be the same, Pax? In soul? In body?

🤷

It seems to me that an immortal body is not the same as a mortal one. A soul never again tempted by sin will not be the same as a sinful one.

The only thing that i think might possibly be the same are the memories, both of the good and the bad. Which is one reason why i think Jesus will wipe the tears from our eyes–bitter tears of regret mixed with grateful tears of joy.

“He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

(Revelation 21:4)
Click to expand...
I agree…we will be changed, but right now we really do not know exactly what this means. The apostle John makes this clear when he says:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Well, i still have much to learn about the substance of the Eucharist, Pax. However, i agree that the basics are a good place to start.

👍
Click to expand...
Yes, we do have much to learn but we must also recognize the limits of our understanding. Afterall, we are talking about something miraculous…it simply won’t comform to our philosophical and scientific scrutiny.
 
davidv said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Well, i still have much to learn about the substance of the Eucharist, Pax. However, i agree that the basics are a good place to start.

👍*

Are the heart of these basics are Christ’s own words:

Quote:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears myword and believes him who sent me, has eternal life
Jn 5:24
We have already shared what Jesus says about the offering of the bread and wine “…this is my body…this is my blood…”

These are the basics. Either we trust Him and believe or not.
Click to expand...
Do you believe the rest of what our Lord said, David?

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
(John 5:24)
 
Pax said:
I don’t believe that the message from Christ is all that complicated. Miracles can, however, be hard to believe and not all of scripture is easy to understand.

The apostle Peter says the following about scripture:

2 Peter 1:20-21
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

The apostle then goes on to say this:

2 Peter 3:15-16
So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Another thing to keep in mind is that scripture has incredible depth. It cannot be exhausted. That is one of the beautiful things about scripture and getting to know the Lord. The spiritual beauty and meaning is never shallow…it is always profound.

I hope this helps.
Click to expand...
Agreed. The gospel is so simple a child can understand it, but also so deep a seasoned theologian can drown in it.
 
Pax said:
I agree…we will be changed, but right now we really do not know exactly what this means. The apostle John makes this clear when he says:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Click to expand...
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
(1 John 3)
Three thoughts:


  1. *]“what we will be” might be speaking of position (what kind of authority you or i might have as sons of God in the new world to come).
    *]“But we know that … we shall be like him” might be speaking of what John knew about the resurrected body of Jesus, whom he touched and with whom he ate after He rose from the dead.
    *]“we shall see him as he is” might be speaking of understanding the nature of God in Christ more fully than we do now (see being a metaphor for comprehension of the truth).

    Regarding (2), do you Pax believe Jesus had a physical, material body, or a non-physical, immaterial body?
 
There seems to be a general consensus on how accidents are easily observed as changing without affecting the substance. The classic example used on this thread involves water as a liquid, then a sold, and finally as a gas. So we all should be able to agree that changes can occur in the accidents even while the substance remains unchanged.

**But we are saying the example of water into steam into ice is a natural form of metamorphsis and I would call it a visual lesson form that God has given to us to help us understand things about His nature. The substance of water to me has nothing to do with the atomic form but has to do with the original ‘thought’ God had about water as a metaphor for His Love. *

So if we are talking about miraculous form of metamorphosis in a sense ( is that a way to say it? Why not talk about a caterpillar transforming into a butterfly…both came from the same material and yet are so very different in form that if you did not know the process by which a caterpillar builds a cacoon and then is transformed, you would hardly recognize they came from the same matter. Could this not be another natural ‘lesson plan’ by God showing us something, a way to think of the resurrection and His glorified body?*

MaryJohnZ
 
Pax said:
Yes, we do have much to learn but we must also recognize the limits of our understanding. Afterall, we are talking about something miraculous–it simply won’t comform to our philosophical and scientific scrutiny.
Click to expand...
Yet, eyewitness testimony will conform to the true nature of the body of Christ, if it is the testimony of trustworthy witnesses.

We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
(2 Peter 1:16)

Do you think it would be wise for you and me, Pax, to consider this eyewitness testimony of Peter and the others before we make up our minds about who the body of Christ is?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
(1 John 3)
Three thoughts:


  1. *]“what we will be” might be speaking of position (what kind of authority you or i might have as sons of God in the new world to come).
    *]“But we know that … we shall be like him” might be speaking of what John knew about the resurrected body of Jesus, whom he touched and with whom he ate after He rose from the dead.
    *]“we shall see him as he is” might be speaking of understanding the nature of God in Christ more fully than we do now (see being a metaphor for comprehension of the truth).

    Regarding (2), do you Pax believe Jesus had a physical, material body, or a non-physical, immaterial body?
Click to expand...

  1. The resurrected Jesus ate and drank, he could be seen and touched, he built a charcoal fire and cooked fish for the apostles. He broke bread, spoke, and was heard.

    I believe Jesus has a physical material body, but this is a glorified body that could appear and disappear. He could enter a locked room which suggests that he could physically pass through walls. Likewise, Jesus was seen bodily ascending into heaven. I do not understand how these things are possible within our understandings of our physical world. The glorified body of Christ defies our earthly understanding.

    All of this is the wonder and power of miracles.
 
MaryJohnZ said:
**
**But we are saying the example of water into steam into ice is a natural form of metamorphsis and I would call it a visual lesson form that God has given to us to help us understand things about His nature. The substance of water to me has nothing to do with the atomic form but has to do with the original ‘thought’ God had about water as a metaphor for His Love. **

So if we are talking about miraculous form of metamorphosis in a sense ( is that a way to say it? Why not talk about a caterpillar transforming into a butterfly…both came from the same material and yet are so very different in form that if you did not know the process by which a caterpillar builds a cacoon and then is transformed, you would hardly recognize they came from the same matter. Could this not be another natural ‘lesson plan’ by God showing us something, a way to think of the resurrection and His glorified body?

MaryJohnZ
Click to expand...
Good thoughts, Mary! The thing about a caterpillar and a butterfly is that they both have exactly the same DNA. To use a metaphor, both have exactly the same programming code. Yet the program produces different results.

Even though there is a change of form, there is not a change of DNA. There is, however, an addition of atoms (creating the wings of the butterfly, for example). I’m not sure how this analogy helps us understand the change from a mortal body to a resurrected one.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Yet, eyewitness testimony will conform to the true nature of the body of Christ, if it is the testimony of trustworthy witnesses.

We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
(2 Peter 1:16)

Do you think it would be wise for you and me, Pax, to consider this eyewitness testimony of Peter and the others before we make up our minds about who the body of Christ is?
Click to expand...
I’m not sure if I understand the question, but I will say that I accept the testimony as part of the package of faith. The testimony of the apostles is an instrument of God and imparts grace.
 
Pax said:
The resurrected Jesus ate and drank, he could be seen and touched, he built a charcoal fire and cooked fish for the apostles. He broke bread, spoke, and was heard.

I believe Jesus has a physical material body, but this is a glorified body that could appear and disappear. He could enter a locked room which suggests that he could physically pass through walls. Likewise, Jesus was seen bodily ascending into heaven. I do not understand how these things are possible within our understandings of our physical world. The glorified body of Christ defies our earthly understanding.

All of this is the wonder and power of miracles.
Click to expand...
In our investigation, i’d recommend that it is important to be as objective as possible. There is no certainty that He ever walked through walls like a ghost. It seems He might have, however, suddenly appeared and disappeared. One example:

"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

(John 20:26)

He might have had the ability to teleport Himself. He might have had the ability to manipulate light waves to make Himself invisible so that they did not notice Him walk into the room with them before they closed the door and locked it. He might have arrived before them and hid in a broom closet before they arrived.

Ascending into heaven is a different matter, and raises some questions. Where did He go? Outer space? Beyond the end of the infinite universe? Another dimension? I mean, just what kind of place is heaven? Is it a place with no matter, or with something beyond matter? You are correct, indeed, Pax! It’s beyond your understanding or mine.

However, i see no eyewitness evidence that conclusively shows Jesus’ body had no atoms, do you? Let’s say, for the sake of argument, the body of Christ could lose all of its atoms. What would it be? I mean, i’ve heard of disembodied souls, but never disembodied bodies. Have you?

🤷
 
Pax said:
I’m not sure if I understand the question, but I will say that I accept the testimony as part of the package of faith. The testimony of the apostles is an instrument of God and imparts grace.
Click to expand...
Yes, that’s pretty close to the response i was hoping you’d give to the question.

🙂
 
distracted said:
I agree with a poster (was it #52?) who said something to the effedt that S4Jesus doesn’t really want an answer…

What is funny (strange) is… even though i have not read every single post (Who has time for that???) I have yet to find out what kind of person this Socrates4Jesus even is… I mean, we don’t know whta religion, if any, he was raised in, what religion he goes by now… nothing of the age bracket he is in… Nothing…

True, i haven’t read all the posts… and i am not going to…
I felt i read enough of them after about the first 10.
Click to expand...
I was baptized, confirmed and participated in the sacrament of Holy Communion before i was old enough to attend High School. I’ve spent some time with Baptists, Calvinists, Mennonites and Evangelicals. I’ve not made up my mind as to what is the closest way to God. I’m currently not attending any church, but would like to find a local body of believers where my wife, two sons, an myself might feel welcome and needed.

I work in Information Technology for a software corporation, which is a job i love. I like hanging out with my wife and kids, reading the Bible and Plato, watching science fiction, drinking strong coffee and good wine, hiking in the mountains, and walking my schnauzer.

Like you, i’m easily distracted! I imagine we both like to pray, too. I spend more time praying for wisdom than anything else (though i’m afraid i might be giving God a bad reputation for not answering prayers by saying so)! Let me know if you’d like to learn anything else about me.
 
steve_b said:
Re: the Eucharist Jn 6:

Quote:48 I am the bread of life. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." 53Jesus said …unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. …he who feeds on this bread will live forever."61 "Does this offend you? 64 there are some of you who do not believe."66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
They left God incarnate, the one who spoke in he beginning and created all that there is. Why? because they would not believe His teaching and the realities of the Eucharist.

What I find chilling, God incarnate didn’t go after them. He didn’t feel the need to further explain or clarify. He let them go.
Click to expand...
Why do you think Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” when He had not yet ascended into heaven, Steve? Do you think it would have been more accurate for Him to say, “I will be the bread of life” instead? I mean, “I am” is present tense, but “I will be” is future tense. At that moment in time, how was Christ the Eucharist?

🤷

(BTW, i’m not asking this to avoid discussing John, chapter 6; i’m asking this to begin taking a closer look at this passage, if you are interested.)

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&version=31
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
In our investigation, i’d recommend that it is important to be as objective as possible. There is no certainty that He ever walked through walls like a ghost. It seems He might have, however, suddenly appeared and disappeared. One example:

"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

(John 20:26)

He might have had the ability to teleport Himself. He might have had the ability to manipulate light waves to make Himself invisible so that they did not notice Him walk into the room with them before they closed the door and locked it. He might have arrived before them and hid in a broom closet before they arrived.

…
…
🤷
Click to expand...
I agree with the idea of objectivity. Likewise, I cannot state categorically that Jesus walked through the walls of the upper room even though this has been the common understanding of most Christians thoughout the ages. Your alternative explanations are fine with me except for the the broom closet idea. I think all of the other explanations would be equally miraculous. Besides, if Jesus could do any one of those things why couldn’t he do the other, i.e. walk through walls?

The big problem is that the biblical data does not give us the data of physics. Spiritual realities and supernatural miracles are described in everyday terms rather than scientific terms. Applying science without scientific data is problematic. Objectivity isn’t automatically compromised in religious matters when science is of little or no help.

Christians cannot explain how God, who is pure spirit, created matter and energy,as we understand them, out of nothing. Nevertheless, we do accept the fact that God did create everything out of nothing. In doing this, God simultaneously gave everything substance and accidents. The substance is by His design and so are the accidents. The Creator is in the unique position of assigning substance and accidents in any way He pleases. Moreover, I believe that God’s assignment of accidents can extend all the way to the atomic level.
 
Yes and Christ has a “DNA”, His “essence” that was His and His alone before the incarnation, after He took on His particular human body, after His resurrection and when He is present in the Eucharist.

3 changes in form One Christ.

Chuck
Socrates4Jesus said:
Good thoughts, Mary! The thing about a caterpillar and a butterfly is that they both have exactly the same DNA. To use a metaphor, both have exactly the same programming code. Yet the program produces different results.

Even though there is a change of form, there is not a change of DNA. There is, however, an addition of atoms (creating the wings of the butterfly, for example). I’m not sure how this analogy helps us understand the change from a mortal body to a resurrected one.
Click to expand...
 
clmowry said:
Yes and Christ has a “DNA”, His “essence” that was His and His alone before the incarnation, after He took on His particular human body, after His resurrection and when He is present in the Eucharist.

3 changes in form One Christ.

Chuck
Click to expand...
Are you saying Christ’s DNA is actually present in the bread, Chuck?

🤷
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top