A Tale of Two Eucharists

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clmowry said:
… Jesus’ Earthly body was just like ours, same as Elijah’s or Mary’s.

But that doesn’t tell he anything about what constitutes a glorified ressurrected body assended to heaven or a human body that has been “assumed” into heaven. …
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Funny that you should mention Elijah, Chuck. Was it not Elijah who was taken into heaven in bodily form?

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
*(2 Kings 2:11)
*
It seems to me that someone does not have to have any kind of spiritual body to enter heaven. Then there is Peter:

25During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

27But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”
28"Lord, if it’s you," Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”
29"Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.

(Matthew 14)

Peter did not need any resurrected body to walk on water.

These historical events tell me that the examples of Jesus ascending into heaven and walking on water are not evidence that His body had some non-physical properties to it. Ascending into the sky and walking on water might be accomplished by God, for example, by making the atoms of one’s body as light as those of oxygen.

This is not an absence of atoms, it is a change of accidents. That is, it is a change of the properties of the atoms. But the atoms still do not cease to exist.

That is what i’m thinking. What do you think?
 
Pax said:
Soc,

I’ve sung the hymn many times at my parish.
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That’s cool! 🙂

It’s no less surprising than what my co-worker told me the other day: She said they play electric guitar and drums and sing modern worship songs at her parish.

It’s a far cry from that lone nun who used to make my ears bleed as a kid. She’d keep playing the wrong notes on her acoustic guitar and sing out of tune at the end of Mass.

😃
 
:newidea: I am out of here… :banghead: as in unsubscribing.

:tiphat:
 
Pax said:
The problem is within our knowledge and understanding of the glorified body. The nature of the atom as we understand it to be in our own bodies, may not be the same as that of a glorified body. This is something that has not been revealed to us by God. What we do know, however, is that we will be changed. It is the exact nature and essence of the change that we do not know or understand. …
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True. We don’t know of what kinds of atoms His body will be composed. However, it will be composed of atoms, won’t it? If His resurrected body did not have atoms, Pax, then how could Thomas put his finger in the wound in Jesus’ side?

http://www.thevalve.org/uploads/car_doubting_thomas.jpg
 
Pax said:
… We can only guess at some things because we know that Jesus rose from the dead and that his body was alive again. Jesus resurrected body was different from our own in some ways. We simply don’t know what those differences may or may not be at an atomic level. We only know that his body is no longer subject to the same limits that ours are. The post resurrection miracles associated with his body have already been mentioned in this regard. …
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Please see my response to Chuck regarding your point, here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3519257&postcount=957
 
Pax said:
… There is also the element of what it means for Jesus to be “sacramentally” present in the Eucharist. Jesus gave us a covenant oath promising to literally feed us with his body and blood in John chapter 6. He then states at the Last Supper that “this is my body…this is my blood.” Jesus never tells us the details of the “how.” Sacraments are covenant oaths that have an outward sign. Baptism has water and the Eucharist has bread and wine. The signs speak to an inner reality that is not visible. This is all related to God’s grace. Grace cannot be seen, but its effects are real. …
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Please read my question for Steve regarding your point, here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3517343&postcount=933
 
Pax said:
… When God says that He will do something, it happens. When Jesus says that the bread and wine are his body and blood then that is what they are. The miraculous aspects and details of this are not subject to the observation of science. We are unable to look upon the face of God lest we die. We are allowed to recieve Jesus in his fully glorified state, but we are not allowed to see him lest we die.
…
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Please consider what i asked David regarding your point, here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3518122&postcount=941
 
Pax said:
… Those that saw Jesus after the resurrection did not see Jesus in his fully glorified state. The transfiguration gave a glimpse of his glory, but even that was a far cry from what we will see of him in heaven. To see Jesus fully glorified would be seeing the Father and the Holy Spirit at the same time. This we cannot do this side of heaven. Jesus is hidden by the accidents of bread and wine. We cannot look upon him in his heavenly glory, otherwise we would already be enjoying the beatific vision and much would already have been revealed. We would literally be in heaven. Instead, Jesus comes to us. The Eucharist is where heaven and earth touch, but they are not fully integrated with one another.

I hope this helps.
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Yes, i can understand how the Spirit of the Son of God, and the soul of the Son of Man, might be hidden in the Eucharist, Pax. I’m not questioning that.

I’m trying to see how it is not self-contradictory, and even absurd, to say that the physical body and blood of Jesus is hidden in the Eucharist.

If it is not the atoms of His body and blood that are in the bread and wine, then what part of His body and blood are in the Eucharist?

It’s the same question i’ve been asking for days and days, and in various ways. However, unless i’ve missed something, no one has an adequate answer, thus far. I don’t think it is an unreasonable thing to ask, Pax, do you?

🤷
 
It is unreasonable if it exceeds the limits of human understanding and goes into the area of mystery.
 
I don’t recall if you addressed my point that I believe the accidents go all the way to the atomic level. The Church believes that the level of “accidents” or physical attributes - is, what can be seen, touched, tasted, or measured. That seems to me to include what we can observe at the atomic level.

What do you think?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
That’s cool! 🙂

It’s no less surprising than what my co-worker told me the other day: She said they play electric guitar and drums and sing modern worship songs at her parish.
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This is quite common. We also sing a lot of praise and worship songs at Youth Group, where the “Jesus is my homeboy” style of theology is, in fact, somewhat appropriate, as a starting place.
It’s a far cry from that lone nun who used to make my ears bleed as a kid. She’d keep playing the wrong notes on her acoustic guitar and sing out of tune at the end of Mass.

😃
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I think she has a relative who comes to my parish … :rolleyes: 😛
 
Pax said:
It is unreasonable if it exceeds the limits of human understanding and goes into the area of mystery.
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Are you saying, then, that whether the body and blood of Christ is really the Eucharist is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, swallowed by the black hole of all that is unknown and unknowable?

😃

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Pax said:
I don’t recall if you addressed my point that I believe the accidents go all the way to the atomic level. The Church believes that the level of “accidents” or physical attributes - is, what can be seen, touched, tasted, or measured. That seems to me to include what we can observe at the atomic level.

What do you think?
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Yes, and no.

Yes, because it is entirely possible that God can change the attributes of atoms. One example being the mass of the atoms of Peter’s body being reduced to the point where he was light enough to walk on water.

No, because it is absurd to think that a body can exist without atoms.

God can change the attributes of atoms, and change the molecular bonds of atoms, and add or remove atoms, but if He were to remove all atoms from a body, that body would cease to exist. It would be an atomless body, or a disembodied body, or a bodiless body–all three of which are logically impossible and irrational nonsense.

That’s my opinion, anyway. If you can explain how an atomless body is not a self-contradictory idea, that would do much to bridge the gap from where i am and where you stand.

 
Question 17.

If it is not the atoms of Jesus’ body and blood that are in the bread and wine, then what part of His body and blood are in the bread and wine of the Eucharist?

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Question 18.

Is the truth about whether the body and blood of Christ are really the Eucharist a mystery, wrapped inside an enigma, swallowed by the black hole of all that is unknown and unknowable?

Is the truth that we simply cannot know for certain that the Eucharist is Jesus?

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As Judas Iscariot was an antagonist, and the other 11 were protagonists, I would side with the 11. They knew Jesus personally and they took him literally. That’s good enough for me.

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven”, says the Lord. Clear and concise!
 
jjformica said:
As Judas Iscariot was an antagonist, and the other 11 were protagonists, I would side with the 11. They knew Jesus personally and they took him literally. That’s good enough for me.

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven”, says the Lord. Clear and concise!
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Thank you, JJ. What do you think Jesus meant when He said these words?

28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30So they asked him, “What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

(John 6)
 
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