A Taylor Marshall question

[Jen7]

Earth is not a botanical garden, but a training academy. I think it is fine to keep up with what is going on around us, but if you find yourself getting depressed about it, take a break from it and focus on your relationship with Christ, and continue to do your part by praying for all.
pax

This made me smile. I love botanic gardens! I hope heaven is like a giant one!!

I am only distressed because I teach catechesis. I don’t want to catechize the kids and teens wrong. The CCC has been the spine of what I know and teach. I have a very advanced catechetical degree. But it is founded in the CCC. Marshall has shaken me deeply as a catechist. I don’t want to lead others astray. It matters to me if I can/should explain that all men are in some sense being pulled toward God… or not. I have always believed this and always taught it. I wish I could call Marshall on the phone and talk to him. I’m no philosopher or theologian. He talks over my head. But if he’s right I need to change how/what I teach. Bringing souls to a relationship with Christ and his true church is all I care about as a catechist but it matters to me if I’m expressing the authentic deposit of faith!!

 

[Jen7]

Taylor Marshall has several web pages that I suspect you could message or email him and ask him to clarify what you think he is saying, otherwise here you will more than likely get opinions of Taylor Marshall rather than answers to your questions.

I’ll look around for other websites. I’d love to talk to him although I’d probably be a waste of time from his perspective!

 

[commenter]

Omgoodness, all I did was go to Sunday Mass real quick! Lol. Lots of posts to catch up on here!!

What? You slacked off on your internet responsibilities to head over to some Sunday church service?

Not very conscientious, I’d say.

 

[rdj88]

the reasonable hope that all men are saved.

That is not Church teaching.

From CCC 1821:
“In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved.”

Also, Mary herself instructed us to pray for Jesus to lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of his mercy.

So it seems hoping and praying for the salvation of all men is, indeed, taught by the Church.

 

[rdj88]

No, he is saying that there is nothing in them that naturally (nothing in their essential nature) that seeks God. They have some amount of Grace in them, but that Grace is all external. None of it comes from within them. The definition of man does not include “seeks after God”. A man may seek after God or he may not, but he remains a man regardless.

This seems to go against the Church’s teaching on Natural Law.

 

[rdj88]

God has not promised that all men will be saved.

I don’t think anyone here claimed that He has.

In fact, He has explicitly taught that many men are damned.

Can you provide your source for this? Because you’re effectively claiming that the Magisterium and Mary herself are telling us to pray for something that is contrary to what God has revealed to us. Your distinction between individuals and the whole is irrelevant; if it’s reasonable to hope and pray that each individual is saved, it therefore follows that it’s reasonable to hope and pray that the group as a whole is saved.

 

[rdj88]

What?
From the Catechism:
“The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.”

The natural law is not “natural” in the sense that you’re implying. It’s a divine light God has placed in us Himself.

 

[rdj88]

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the parable of the Ten Virgins, the parable of the man without the correct garment, the discourse on Judgement, the parable of the wheat and the tares, the description of the wide gate and the narrow gate, and countless other times where Christ explicitly taught the reality of Hell.

These are all stories which require interpretation. I’m not looking for your interpretation of them; you’re claiming that these stories are definitive claims by God that there are men in hell, so you need to provide a source from the Magisterium which supports this interpretation.

It is reasonable expect that one man will win the foot race, it is unreasonable to expect that all contestants will win the foot race.

I think it’s perfectly obvious why this analogy doesn’t apply here, so I won’t bother explaining why I reject it.

 

[rdj88]

What you’re saying here is irrelevant.

You made the claim “that there is nothing in them that naturally (nothing in their essential nature) that seeks God.”

This is contrary to what the Church teaches about Natural Law. I already provided the quote from the Catechism which demonstrates this. God has placed in us a divine light that guides us towards Him. There’s really nothing to argue about; you’re simply incorrect.

 

[rdj88]

I hold the majority view.

This is a fallacious argument, and it’s also missing the point.

Within the context of this discussion, you have claimed that something is true. In order to support this claim, you must provide a valid source. In this case, because we’re taking about Catholic theology/doctrine, the valid source would be the Magisterium.

So in actuality, you are the one who must find some source from the Magesterium that explicitly teaches that no men are in Hell or will ever go to Hell.

No I don’t, because I haven’t claimed that. What I claimed is that we do not have knowledge about whether or which men will end up in hell (a sentiment I’m echoing directly from Pope Saint John Paul II), and that it is reasonable to hope and pray for all men to be saved because we are directly taught this by both the Blessed Mother and by the Magisterium.

 

[rdj88]

I will quote another part of the Catechism:

“The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself.”

I haven’t misrepresented anything. What you’re doing is rejecting clear and explicit statements made by the Magisterium in favor of what some guy on YouTube says.

 

[rdj88]

take it up with the Church, that has explicitly taught, based on the words of Christ, that some men are damned.

Where have they taught this? Just claiming over and over again that something is the case does not count as evidence in support of the claim. This is getting ridiculous.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

From CCC 1821:
“In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved.”

Also, Mary herself instructed us to pray for Jesus to lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of his mercy.

Yes but there is a difference between praying that all men be saved and having a reasonable hope that all men are saved and part of the conclusion that has followed that theory is that hell is empty.

A blanket salvation for all people is not Church teaching.

 

[rdj88]

So you’re saying that Mary told us to pray for something that isn’t reasonable?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

So you’re saying that Mary told us to pray for something that isn’t reasonable?

No because the prayer is asking Jesus to lead all souls to heaven, which he does but not everyone needs that leading.

And the reasonable hope throry is based on everyone just going to heaven no matter what. That’s not the same as the prayer she gave us asking Jesus to lead souls to heaven.

She also showed the children an image of hell where she said souls go because no one makes sacrifices for them.

Are you saying Jesus is not The Way?

 

[rdj88]

Of course the punishment exists; please stop attacking straw men.

The fact that hell exists is not proof that any man is there.

You can either provide a quote from the Magisterium which teaches that we know there are human souls in hell, or admit that you’re incorrect, and that you’re following the word of Taylor Marshall over the word of the Church of Christ.

 

[rdj88]

Are you saying Jesus is not The Way?

To say Jesus is The Way means that Jesus embodied The Way. Christ showed us The Way by being The Way.

You’re taking the meaning to a borderline Protestant level. Natural Law is placed by God in every man, and Christ speaks to us through our conscience. This means that one can be saved having never even heard of the person “Jesus Christ.” How else would all of the righteous before him have been saved? They obviously didn’t know who Jesus was because he didn’t exist yet. You’re taking the notion that Jesus is The Way too literalistically. He is indeed The Way, but that doesn’t mean you have to know who he is as a person, because his divine nature speaks to us all.

 

[rdj88]

Good grief. Maybe an analogy will help:

Say you ask me whether any men are in prison.

If I tell you that prison exists, does that prove there are men in prison?

No.

If I quote you the law that explains what crimes will send a man to prison, does that prove there are men in prison?

No.

You have proven that hell exists, and that certain behavior will send men to hell. Neither of these things prove that there are any men in hell.

Do you understand?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

You’re taking the meaning to a borderline Protestant level

Sorry but no. The Church still teaches there is no salvation outside the Catholic church and the grace given to us in baptism is God’s grace because He is the Way.

How else would all of the righteous before him have been saved? They obviously didn’t know who Jesus was because he didn’t exist yet.

They had the hope of the coming Messiah and they did not enter heaven until after His death and resurrection.

that doesn’t mean you have to know who he is as a person, because his divine nature speaks to us all.

That is not Catholic teaching. Only because of ones invincible ignorance can one be saved outside the Church.

Yes His natural law is written in our hearts but all do not follow that and natural law is not how one enters heaven.

 

[Emeraldlady]

And there i am completely confused. Can someone explain to me this distinction he’s making? I thought our hearts are restless until they rest in God & we are all seeking Him whether we realize what we are seeking or not. But Taylor Marshall seems to say this is a very wrong way to see things. Perhaps he feels God is seeking US but that we aren’t exactly seeking him? I don’t know. I wish I could ask him. But since I can’t I thought id ask here. Anyone???

Just go with the Catechism and have faith in that. What often happens with some converts is that after a while they try and reconcile Catholicism with the tradition that they’ve come from in some way as a resistance against the type of ‘assent’ is required by a Catholic. This may be what’s happened to Marshall?

CCC I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1

28 In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:

From one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him - though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For "in him we live and move and have our being."2

29 But this “intimate and vital bond of man to God” (GS 19 § 1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man.3 Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call.4

30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God