A Taylor Marshall question

[Crusader13]

I think that approach is just a myth or an ideal some have but that in real life, debate about the Trinity don’t come up. It is more about more base behaviours like sex outside marriage, homosexuality, not meeting together in faith and Eucharist.

I’ll give you that. The issues that we deal with are more internal than external. Meaning the church’s biggest threat doesn’t come from non-Catholics seeking to disprove the Church and her authority, but instead by those within who would seek to reshape her into the Church they want.

We meet people where they but we don’t leave them there. We show them the One True Way to salvation we don’t walk with them down their road to destruction and point out all the beauty along the way.

If I meet a young loving couple who are on the fence about leaving the Church because they disagree with the Church’s teachings on birth control, I don’t shift the conversation to Pope Francis’s talk about breeding like rabbits in an attempt to point out that Church is with them.

I’ll probably refer them to Humanae vitae and the validity of the church’s understanding regarding life and marriage.

 

[RogueSemicolon]

If I’m not mistaken De Lubac referred to this topic in his book Surnaturel.

If the reference is, indeed, true, the book Surnatural was never published in English. It wasn’t until 21 years later that a “refinement and further development of his core thesis” was published and translated into English in his book The Mystery of the Supernatural, with a new edition from Crossroads Publishing as recent as 1998. Has Taylor Marshall read either book himself or has he relied on others in forming his own opinion of de Lubac’s theology? Given how controversial de Lubac apparently was in his time, I imagine works critical of his theology would not be difficult to access, but reading such works wouldn’t be the same thing as reading from the original sources for the full context.

 

[catholic03]

There is some great content on his channel, and he is a defender of Christian orthodoxy. I don’t agree with everything he says, but he’s fine in my opinion. Do stay away from some of his videos though.

ΙϹ ΧϹ ΝΙΚΑ

 

[Jen7]

Has Taylor Marshall read either book himself or has he relied on others in forming his own opinion of de Lubac’s theology?

Oh I wouldn’t have any idea. He’s a professor, though, right? I imagine he’s read it. I wish I had the time to do so & the brain to understand these type of things “in the original,” but I really don’t have either. I appreciate everyone who has chimes in here to help me understand!!

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

we do not have knowledge about whether or which men will end up in hell

There is no question whether there will be men in hell. There is a question as to which men and thus we pray for all men, because we do not know which men.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

CCC
1257:
“Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament .”

Do you deny that there are those to whom the gospel has been proclaimed that have not received the sacrament of baptism? Who have not wished to receive the sacrament?

 

[Jen7]

Do you deny that there are those to whom the gospel has been proclaimed that have not received the sacrament of baptism? Who have not wished to receive the sacrament?

Undoubtedly, right? Can you say more? I’m not sure what you’re getting at…

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

And no unbaptized person is ever in the state of grace, correct?

No. But that baptism can be by water, blood or desire. But without baptism by one of those means, one cannot be saved.

As an aside, Christopher West got raked over the coals years ago for saying something along the lines of Hugh Hefner was seeking something good via his life of public sin, but that he didn’t know a better way to do so.

I don’t know what he actually said (or who he is) but I think the concept is simply that we all seek that which is good for us (makes us happy, content). Another way of saying that is that all sin we commit begins with seeking a good, but in the case of sin it is wrongly ordered, such that something like sexual pleasure, rightly ordered, leads to marriage and family, while wrongly ordered leads to fornication, adultery and things even more heinous. By staying rightly ordered, we are granted more light, more grace. If we go against that order, or natural law, we darken our intellects and are further from knowing God and His salvation.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Undoubtedly, right? Can you say more? I’m not sure what you’re getting at…

Since baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament, those who do not ask and do not seek it until the moment of their death cannot enter heaven.

 

[Aquinas11]

Has Taylor Marshall read either book himself or has he relied on others in forming his own opinion of de Lubac’s theology?

De Lubac theology was the topic of his 350 page PhD dissertation so I’m sure he has

 

[RogueSemicolon]

I hadn’t found any mention of a dissertation except the one he wrote for his PhD in Philosophy, “Thomas Aquinas on Natural Law and the Twofold End of Humanity.” Is this the one you mean? Is de Lubac’s theology a topic within it or another dissertation? If true, that answers my question.

 

[Jen7]

So I think the “two fold end of humanity” part is where de lubac comes in to the dissertation. Aquinas supported the concept of a two fold end but de lubac did not. That is what I gathered from listening to Marshall’a videos. What I’m the world it means is what I’m trying to figure out…

 

[Aquinas11]

I hadn’t found any mention of a dissertation except the one he wrote for his PhD in Philosophy, “Thomas Aquinas on Natural Law and the Twofold End of Humanity.” Is this the one you mean?

Yes, the Twofold End is how we have a
(1) Natural end (to inquire/naturally ask about God, via philosophy) and
(2) a Supernatural end (to seek God in afterlife via Sacraments, etc).
The two are related but distinct. De Lubac said they’re the same, hence believed anything we do in this life fulfills our supernatural end. So going to yoga class or Pagan ceremony would do as much for me getting to heaven as going to Mass. Also reason people saying “reasonable hope all men be saved” = if everything everyone does moves them towards heaven , why wouldn’t everyone be saved? Essentially deletes concept of sin.

 

[RogueSemicolon]

I just find it doubtful a theologian held in such high esteem as Henri de Lubac took to the heterodox belief of universalism or indifferentism. While it is true that de Lubac was censured by Rome and removed from teaching for almost a decade because it was believed a few of his works contained doctrinal errors, he was later reconciled with Rome and allowed to teach again starting in 1958. De Lubac was a good friend of Joseph Ratzinger, both having participated as theological advisers and experts during the Second Vatican Council, and, later, working with Hans Urs von Balthasar, Louis Bouyer, Jorge Medina, and others to found the theological journal Communio intended to, as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger put it in a 2002 lecture “Eucharist, Communion, and Solidarity,” “deepen and develop the inheritance of the council.” That he was made a cardinal at the age of 90 by St. John Paul II should speak to the respect his theological thought had in the Church.

Nevertheless, since the controversial work in question is inaccessible to me, I cannot comment further on it and will have to leave it unexplored. (Not that I’d likely understand it to begin with.) But, given his great standing and influence in the Church in the 20th century, I would hope others read it in charity first, as if it were in continuity with Church doctrine, rather than assume the worst.

 

[Jen7]

I just find it doubtful a theologian held in such high esteem as Henri de Lubac took to the heterodox belief of universalism or indifferentism.

My understanding is that his teachings were the seedbed for errors we are seeing now. Plus when I was reading about his personal life it sounds like toward the end he may have had some regrets - but I wasn’t clear if those were ideological regrets or “darn I got caught” regrets.

 

[Jen7]

The two are related but distinct. De Lubac said they’re the same, hence believed anything we do in this life fulfills our supernatural end. So going to yoga class or Pagan ceremony would do as much for me getting to heaven as going to Mass. Also reason people saying “reasonable hope all men be saved” = if everything everyone does moves them towards heaven , why wouldn’t everyone be saved? Essentially deletes concept of sin.

I get the wrongness of this when stated so clearly. But what about in statements like this: God infinitely perfect in himself in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life… therefore at every time and in every place God draws close to man… etc (CCC paragraph 1). Is it true?? Or should we say God infinitely perfect… freely created man to live some type of natural existence and IF he responds to grace through evangelization and receives the sacraments to share his blessed life in heaven…”??? I know I keep bringing up paragraph 1. I almost got the entire thing tattood on my back in college! It was life changing to me. But maybe it’s not quite right?

 

[graciew]

And who is Marshall that you are doubting the Cathecism?
That is bad…
Why don’t you devote more time to a peaceful reading of the Cathecism and put your “ unrest” to rest?

 

[Jen7]

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Strengthened by this mission, the apostles “went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it.”

3 Those who with God’s help have welcomed Christ’s call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ’s faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.

The above are the first three paragraphs of the CCC. My concern is the italicized portion at the beginning. I’m probably concerned about all of Gauguin et Spes now too, but I haven’t looked at it in any detail for a few years…

 

[Crusader13]

I don’t think anyone is doubting the Catechism and in his videos he never referenced anything negative regarding the Catechism.

He was talking about the Nouvelle Théologie as a whole and how this movement has largely influenced much of what we are seeing today in the Church.

 

[graciew]

Gaudium et Spes.
Gauguin was a painter.
Why being restless unnecessarily?