A technicality?

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Hello

Your views would be much appreciated.

I have a dilemma. I am the holder of a season ticket for a famous London based football club. On certain occasions I have been lending it to a friend or my brother (they will give me some money at face value or less) and then I will give the money to charity. We have been basically sharing the ticket as the cost is prohibitive and this way everyone’s a winner. I know lots of people do this and the club is aware this practice is common.

However My OCD has just flared up about this issue. I went to the Terms and conditions of the contract and it states “The ticket is for the holder’s use only” :eek:. Everyone knows the reason this clause was inserted was to stop ticket 'tout’s selling on the ticket for profit. Nevertheless it’s there in black and white. Everytime I lend it to my brother or friend apparently I am in breach of contract. Is this sinning?

The same is true of concert tickets.Let’s say you are sick on the day of a concert and you give it to your brother…chances are the small print will say you need written permission or such liketo do that.:eek:

How does one live in the light of technicalities? Is it immoral? WIll I go to hell on a technicality? :eek:

Other issues for you to consider. Lending a friend a video or DVD or CD.Is that in breach of copyright? Will Hell await?:eek:
 
John_of_Woking said:
Hello

Your views would be much appreciated.

I have a dilemma. I am the holder of a season ticket for a famous London based football club. On certain occasions I have been lending it to a friend or my brother (they will give me some money at face value or less) and then I will give the money to charity. We have been basically sharing the ticket as the cost is prohibitive and this way everyone’s a winner. I know lots of people do this and the club is aware this practice is common.

However My OCD has just flared up about this issue. I went to the Terms and conditions of the contract and it states “The ticket is for the holder’s use only” :eek:. Everyone knows the reason this clause was inserted was to stop ticket 'tout’s selling on the ticket for profit. Nevertheless it’s there in black and white. Everytime I lend it to my brother or friend apparently I am in breach of contract. Is this sinning?

The same is true of concert tickets.Let’s say you are sick on the day of a concert and you give it to your brother…chances are the small print will say you need written permission or such liketo do that.:eek:

How does one live in the light of technicalities? Is it immoral? WIll I go to hell on a technicality? :eek:
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I doubt it. The ticket remains your property, and only one person is using it at a time. The club probably prefers that someone be sitting in that seat, even if it isn’t you - it makes for better television when all of the seats are filled up. So, yeah, if you can’t go, they most likely won’t mind if you lend it to a friend or relative. They just don’t want you scalping it for profit.
Other issues for you to consider. Lending a friend a video or DVD or CD.Is that in breach of copyright? Will Hell await?:eek:
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No, not at all. Again, only one family is using it at a time, so, no big deal. It’s not like you’re making copies and selling them.

In fact, it might inspire them to buy a copy of their own, so, don’t worry about it.
 
Depending on what the term “Holder” means, I may have to strongly disagree.

If by the term “Holder” they mean the person with the ticket physically held in his hand, then no, probably not morally wrong. But if by the term “Holder” they mean the person who originally purchased the ticket or to whome it was given as a gift then I would urge caution. When you purchased the ticket, you were expected to abide by the policy - as part of the transaction you paid money and they gave you access to the game subject to the terms of use of the ticket. If those terms were that only you use the ticket, then giving the ticket to a friend to go to the game is stealing. I really doesn’t matter that anyone or everyone is doing it.

OK, so you weren’t aware of the policy when you purchased the ticket and made a mistake and so that is probably not a sin and if it is, a small one at that. But now you know! If the ticket was sold under the condition that only the person who purchased it can use it then letting someone else use it is stealing.

The part that I question is, if the ticket issuer knows that violations of the agreement are common and does nothing about it, does that mitigate they requirement to abide by the agreement? Hard to say and where it becomes sinful is a difficult question. But it’s one thing to say “I didn’t know” and quite another to knowingly violate conditions upon which a transaction was based and which were agreed upon beforehand.

People copy software, burn music CD’s, share passwords for pay internet sites, photocopy books and training manuals, return clothing after wearning it. Most of the time it is simply stealing. If the intent of the agreement under which the ticket was purchased was to prohibit ticket sharing, then sharing the ticket is stealing and breaking a promise.

What are you gonna do, risk your salvation over a soccer game?

-Tim-
 
Thanks for your replies.

With respect to TimothyH. *I don’t copy software, burn music CD’s, share passwords for pay internet sites, photocopy books and training manuals, return clothing after wearning it *. (Here I presume you mean - returning it to a shop)

I can see those issues are clear cut.

What about…

instances where you tick a box that says “I have read all the terms and conditions” even though you haven’t. Have you ever done that? Does that jeopardise your immortal soul?

Lending a friend a DVD to watch? Is that grave matter?

In this instance I admit there is a technical breach at play and I intend to resolve the matter . Will it really forfeit my soul? I hope not but I will probably reasonably not be able to resolve the matter before next season when I intend reliniquishing membership or finding some other way.

I hope I don’t die before then :eek:

Another moral dilemma for you all…

If you are entering a country and there is a box which says " Have you ever broken the law?" What happens if you tick no - but have had a speeding ticket…or used to smoke weed in college. Or even been jailed for praying outside an abortion clinic Are you expected to tick Yes? Even if that would mean preventing you from seeing a loved one?
 
TimothyH said:
Depending on what the term “Holder” means, I may have to strongly disagree.

If by the term “Holder” they mean the person with the ticket physically held in his hand, then no, probably not morally wrong. But if by the term “Holder” they mean the person who originally purchased the ticket or to whome it was given as a gift then I would urge caution. When you purchased the ticket, you were expected to abide by the policy - as part of the transaction you paid money and they gave you access to the game subject to the terms of use of the ticket. If those terms were that only you use the ticket, then giving the ticket to a friend to go to the game is stealing. I really doesn’t matter that anyone or everyone is doing it.

OK, so you weren’t aware of the policy when you purchased the ticket and made a mistake and so that is probably not a sin and if it is, a small one at that. But now you know! If the ticket was sold under the condition that only the person who purchased it can use it then letting someone else use it is stealing.

The part that I question is, if the ticket issuer knows that violations of the agreement are common and does nothing about it, does that mitigate they requirement to abide by the agreement? Hard to say and where it becomes sinful is a difficult question. But it’s one thing to say “I didn’t know” and quite another to knowingly violate conditions upon which a transaction was based and which were agreed upon beforehand.

People copy software, burn music CD’s, share passwords for pay internet sites, photocopy books and training manuals, return clothing after wearning it. Most of the time it is simply stealing. If the intent of the agreement under which the ticket was purchased was to prohibit ticket sharing, then sharing the ticket is stealing and breaking a promise.

What are you gonna do, risk your salvation over a soccer game?

-Tim-
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For the record I didn’t purchase the season ticket my brother did…but it is still in my name. Does that absolve me of guilt;)
 
TimothyH said:
Depending on what the term “Holder” means, I may have to strongly disagree.

If by the term “Holder” they mean the person with the ticket physically held in his hand, then no, probably not morally wrong. But if by the term “Holder” they mean the person who originally purchased the ticket or to whome it was given as a gift then I would urge caution. When you purchased the ticket, you were expected to abide by the policy - as part of the transaction you paid money and they gave you access to the game subject to the terms of use of the ticket. If those terms were that only you use the ticket, then giving the ticket to a friend to go to the game is stealing. I really doesn’t matter that anyone or everyone is doing it.
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This just seems way too scrupulous, to me. The intent of the rule is to prevent people from scalping, and there is no scalping going on, here - he is just lending his pass to a friend on the days when he can’t go.

The club would most likely prefer that he do that, rather than have the seat be empty on game day, to make for better television. You don’t want there to be empty seats showing on television. (In fact, in some places, you can make good money being a “seat filler” for games that don’t get sold out. They place you in range of the cameras, and you have to yell and scream and carry on like you’re having a good time at the event. (You have to go in groups of ten, twenty, etc., in order to get paid for it - it’s a good Youth Group fundraiser, though.) 🙂
 
Technically, the unconfessed sins that send us to Hell are mortal sins. Standard one to be mortal is it has to be a GRAVE matter.

If I give the ticket away, or sell it at discount or at the face value price, I do not see any grave matter at all.

If I sell it for say 10% over face value, is that grave matter or does it become grave at 100% over face value? Does selling it to a poor man or a rich man make a difference? If I offer it for sale at any price, but do not try to extort the buyer - he freely chooses to buy, is it a grave matter? As a buyer, I am free to not pay more than face value. Nothing requires me to attend the game.

But if I made a profit on the sale am I obliged to declare that income on my tax return?

I note also, that no one asks for ID upon entering nor do they compare that ID with the name of the original purchaser. So, is the use of the ticket by someone other than the original purchaser considered a GRAVE matter to the football club? I think not.

So much for pounding a peanut. 😉
 
GratefulFred said:
Technically, the unconfessed sins that send us to Hell are mortal sins. Standard one to be mortal is it has to be a GRAVE matter.

If I give the ticket away, or sell it at discount or at the face value price, I do not see any grave matter at all.

If I sell it for say 10% over face value, is that grave matter or does it become grave at 100% over face value? Does selling it to a poor man or a rich man make a difference? If I offer it for sale at any price, but do not try to extort the buyer - he freely chooses to buy, is it a grave matter? As a buyer, I am free to not pay more than face value. Nothing requires me to attend the game.

But if I made a profit on the sale am I obliged to declare that income on my tax return?

I note also, that no one asks for ID upon entering nor do they compare that ID with the name of the original purchaser. So, is the use of the ticket by someone other than the original purchaser considered a GRAVE matter to the football club? I think not.

So much for pounding a peanut. 😉
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Thankyou Fred…I appreciate it
 
You’re welcome, John.

Too often, I think we focus too finely on whether something is right or wrong and loose sight of degree.

I think the example is clearly not a Mortal Sin and one should rest easy knowing that such a technical wrong is not a grave wrong in most cases.

We can be too complacent as well as being too scrupulous. We need to guard against going to either end.
 
Wow. I thought my OCD/ Scrupulosity was bad…The original post just took it to the next level… I am now cured.
 
John_of_Woking said:
Hello

Your views would be much appreciated.

I have a dilemma. I am the holder of a season ticket for a famous London based football club. On certain occasions I have been lending it to a friend or my brother (they will give me some money at face value or less) and then I will give the money to charity. We have been basically sharing the ticket as the cost is prohibitive and this way everyone’s a winner. I know lots of people do this and the club is aware this practice is common.

However My OCD has just flared up about this issue. I went to the Terms and conditions of the contract and it states “The ticket is for the holder’s use only” :eek:. Everyone knows the reason this clause was inserted was to stop ticket 'tout’s selling on the ticket for profit. Nevertheless it’s there in black and white. Everytime I lend it to my brother or friend apparently I am in breach of contract. Is this sinning?

The same is true of concert tickets.Let’s say you are sick on the day of a concert and you give it to your brother…chances are the small print will say you need written permission or such liketo do that.:eek:

How does one live in the light of technicalities? Is it immoral? WIll I go to hell on a technicality? :eek:

Other issues for you to consider. Lending a friend a video or DVD or CD.Is that in breach of copyright? Will Hell await?:eek:
Click to expand...
Hey man, first off. Relax, breathe. What you did was COMPLETELY fine. NO SIN AT ALL.

It’s only your scrupulousness that is causing you to think that way. You’re 100% OK. 👍
 
TimothyH said:
Depending on what the term “Holder” means, I may have to strongly disagree.

If by the term “Holder” they mean the person with the ticket physically held in his hand, then no, probably not morally wrong. But if by the term “Holder” they mean the person who originally purchased the ticket or to whome it was given as a gift then I would urge caution. When you purchased the ticket, you were expected to abide by the policy - as part of the transaction you paid money and they gave you access to the game subject to the terms of use of the ticket. If those terms were that only you use the ticket, then giving the ticket to a friend to go to the game is stealing. I really doesn’t matter that anyone or everyone is doing it.

OK, so you weren’t aware of the policy when you purchased the ticket and made a mistake and so that is probably not a sin and if it is, a small one at that. But now you know! If the ticket was sold under the condition that only the person who purchased it can use it then letting someone else use it is stealing.

The part that I question is, if the ticket issuer knows that violations of the agreement are common and does nothing about it, does that mitigate they requirement to abide by the agreement? Hard to say and where it becomes sinful is a difficult question. But it’s one thing to say “I didn’t know” and quite another to knowingly violate conditions upon which a transaction was based and which were agreed upon beforehand.

People copy software, burn music CD’s, share passwords for pay internet sites, photocopy books and training manuals, return clothing after wearning it. Most of the time it is simply stealing. If the intent of the agreement under which the ticket was purchased was to prohibit ticket sharing, then sharing the ticket is stealing and breaking a promise.

What are you gonna do, risk your salvation over a soccer game?

-Tim-
Click to expand...
I don’t mean this in a mean way, but boy man I think the advice you gave him could really make his scrupulosity WAY WORSE.

He’s not going to go to Hell if he gives someone a ticket and then gives the money he gets to charity. 🤷
 
Adam1986 said:
I don’t mean this in a mean way, but boy man I think the advice you gave him could really make his scrupulosity WAY WORSE.

He’s not going to go to Hell if he gives someone a ticket and then gives the money he gets to charity. 🤷
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No kidding… it’s funny to read all of the different takes on this. The terms and conditions want the season pass holder to not go out and profit from that pass. That’s it. Anything else is way over the top… the seat was paid for and we are allowed to give gifts… teachccd
 
teachccd said:
No kidding… it’s funny to read all of the different takes on this. The terms and conditions want the season pass holder to not go out and profit from that pass. That’s it. Anything else is way over the top… the seat was paid for and we are allowed to give gifts… teachccd
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Yep agreed man. 👍
 
Thanks for the follow ups. Feeling calmer about this. They inserted the clauses to stop touts. They suggest written consent should be obtained when passing on to a friend. However even that is there to stop touts. I think my OCD means I follow the letter of the law till it kills me
 
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