A thank you to all Non - Believers

[Al_Moritz]

Metaphysical naturalism is a faith based ideology.

You can say that loudly. Naturalism is totally faith-based.

 

[tonyrey]

You can say that loudly. Naturalism is totally faith-based.

Nor has it ever been explained precisely what “nature” is. It is a nebulous term which seems to change to cover new discoveries, i.e.everything a naturalist feels compelled to believe - in addition to what s/he wants to believe!

 

[tonyrey]

That assumption rules out all probability estimates in

From any point of view! If the universe is improbable so is everything else in the universe. All probabilities in the universe become no more than degrees of improbability!

However, I do not think it is meaningful to consider the probability of the universe as a whole, so all we are left with is the probability of things within the universe.

If you believe it is not meaningful to consider the probability of the universe as a whole you imply that it must exist simply because it exists! You have faith in physical necessity - without justification…

1. There are **countless **

*possibilities of universes with physical constants different to our universe - unless it can be explained why certain physical constants are not feasible

1. There is **one **possibility of a universe with the same physical constants as our universe - unless it can be explained why there is more than one possible universe with the same physical constants
2. It is absurd to equate countless with **many **- unless it can be explained whymany possible universes must have the same physical constants
3. Therefore our knowledge of the physical constants essential for our form of life is sufficient to know that those conditions are extremely unlikely to be satisfied in all possible universes
4. Cosmologists frequently extrapolate from the conditions in our universe as a basis for their theories about this universe in the context of other possible universes

All that reasoning is fine-ish, but I’d rather describe those possible universes as potentially possible universes.

I don’t know what “fine-ish” means but I do know you haven’t refuted my statements!

Given that we don’t know about what caused our own universe, how can we know what other universes might be?

By the time-honoured method of extrapolation which is constantly used in philosophy and science. We are not entitled to assume that:

1. This is the sole universe
2. The features of this universe are necessary
3. The features of this universe are immutable
4. Knowledge always depends on knowledge of the origin of an entity

We do not know what is possible.

We do not know anything for certain (except our mental processes) but we are justified in believing many propositions because of our success in controlling ourselves and our environment. All empirical knowledge is based on probability and the principle of induction.

We can theorise what would happen if x, y, z were different, but this gives us no license to assume that they could actually be different. So they remain potential possibilities.

A “potential possibility” is a pleonasm! It amounts to “a possible possibility” but there are no degrees of possibility, are there? If something is more possible it amounts to being more probable, I should have thought…

I have having second thoughts about:

*2. There is **one ***possibility of a universe with the same physical constants as our universe - unless it can be explained why there is more than one possible universe with the same physical constants

There could be many universes with the same physical constants as our universe but in the absence of information we are entitled to assume there are an immensely greater number of possible universes with different physical constants.

If we never speculated about possibilities we would never make discoveries or have a true sense of perspective with regard to our existing knowledge. Wisdom consists to some extent in being open-minded…

 

[Fragile]

It seems far too many are far too easily offended these days!

 

[tonyrey]

It seems far too many are far too easily offended these days!

They may not be used to the rough and tumble of philosophical discussions where everything should be considered…

 

[Bobber90]

If you believe it is not meaningful to consider the probability of the universe as a whole you imply that it must exist simply because it exists! You have faith in physical necessity - without justification…

Be precise. I think we cannot talk meaningfully about the probability of the universe because we lack the necessary data. I do not think that the universe is the way it is because it can be no other way. That is equally impossible to assert. How can we talk about the probability of the universe knowing nothing of its cause, or if it has a cause?

And I remain convinced that this is right: We can theorise what would happen if x, y, z were different, but this gives us no license to assume that they could actually be different. You are trying to assure me that we can model alternative universes, and I agree. What I am trying to say is that being able to imagine alternatives does not make those alternatives in any way real, or as if they might have been real but for the specific cause of our universe, because we cannot see enough to know about other possibilities.

 

[Whadyamean]

It seems far too many are far too easily offended these days!

Excellent statement from someone handled “Fragile!”

 

[rhiannonh]

Everyone who enters my life is unique and special to me because invidually and collectively they have all enriched my life and help me grow regardless of their faith or non faith. Each has helped make my life a better place in their own individual and unique way. Not all of my friends and people I meet are Christian. Some declare themselves not. So yes, whilst I want everyone to turn to Jesus and accept him into their lives I know that Jesus loves them too and is waiting for their call. I know that whether one has faithfully believed all their lives or someone who may turn to Christ in their last living breath will be given same love. We all need someone to love us and they do through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Non believers have a very special place in our hearts as they can help us equally. They can help us see how rich we are to have faith. Not special. just rich. Something in the beattitudes there. Or we can help them to see they are no worse off for not having faith. Because we do not judge because Gods loves us all. They will be loved as much by God as we are. We just happend to be lucky and discovered Gods’ love sooner. But God loves us all equally whether we believe it or not.