A theological argument FOR abortion

[Rence]

But, what about the woman who makes this decision? Well, it depends on her intent. Catholics, (unlike some Protestants) take the intent into consideration, and not just the act itself. If her intent is to assure a place in heaven, she acts out of love, performing an act in the fetus’s best interest. Furthermore, she sacrifices herself, her future place in heaven, which is the highest form of love. So, she is not a criminal, she does not sin, she puts the well-being of the fetus in front of her own. Thus she is to be praised and a self-sacrificing person, who risks everything just to assure the fetus’s place.
Moreover, she prevents the possible “slip” of her child, who might commot some mortal sin and consequently would be confined to eternal damnation. From a simple risk-benefit analysis, it is her optimal solution. The fetus will get an assured place in heaven. Her fate is also assured, as a self-sacrificing person, who exhibits the highest form of love. Surely God will take her intent into consideration.

I appreciate your arguement, but it’s not likely you will ever encounter a woman whose intention to have an abortion is to save her unborn child from potential damnation. Though I know several people who think this world has gone “to hell in a handbasket” and therefore won’t have children with the intention of saving them from this hell of a world yadda yadda, none of them would have an abortion over this notion.

An extremely high percentage of abortion is due to convenience: can’t afford it, not the right time (must finish school, too wrapped up in other family crises), or don’t want the responsibility. In addition, there is the tragedy of those who abort because they are in abusive or other oppressive conditions that, though they don’t want an abortion, they think, in their despair that it’s the only choice they have. So sad. Then there’s like 1-2% who have abortions due to rape, incest or threat to the woman’s life. I’ve never heard of someone having an abortion to save the fetus from potential damnation or hardship, though who knows, there could be someone out there who thinks this.

Regardless, according to the Catholic Church, the reasons don’t justify the actions. Intent in this case doesn’t matter. According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, direct abortion is always forbidden in every circumstance. The intention of saving the fetus from him/herself is not acceptable, even if said fetus would earn a one-way ticket to paradise.

So, though you get an A for effort, no, this is not a theological argument FOR abortion. Nice try though Now please go pray a rosary for all the hypertension you caused on this thread that won’t be relieved with medications, ice cream, or counting backwards from 100.

 

[NeedImprovement]

That actually does appear to be what the Catholic position suggests. Of course I understand that intention matters, and that the immortal soul of the perpetrator is believed to be at stake. However, it must also be said that the Catholic (and perhaps general Christian) ethic holds sacrifice for one’s neighbour in the highest regard. Why is it not greater to sacrifice one’s immortal soul for the sake of another than to sacrifice any worldly good? And why is compassionate intention not considered relevant in such a circumstance? I don’t say this to be insolent, but because I am genuinely curious - such questions really never came up when I was growing up Catholic.

My own answer, as an atheist, would be that it is wrong to commit an act of assault or violence against any person against their will; is the Catholic position the same? If so, why?

If you don’t say it to be insolent, then quite possibly your atheism may be blocking you from clearly seeing the Christian perspective.

… Why is it not greater to sacrifice one’s immortal soul for the sake of another than to sacrifice any worldly good ?..

Because at the moment of conception, it is God who gives you your human soul. Your parents (and mine) are co-creators with God. But because God Himself gives your human soul , only He knows its true value. And your soul is very precious in God’s eyes - so precious that He would come and die in order to save your soul. Does it make at least a little bit of sense to you that what you’re saying doesn’t make sense to us ?

Corinthians tells us, “You were bought at a great price.”

The precious value of your human soul in God’s eyes, can be gleaned from Jesus’ words:

Jesus’ words to St. Faustina- used for meditation on Day 1 of the novena to the Divine Mercy -

“Today bring to Me all mankind, especially all sinners, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. In this way you will console Me in the bitter grief into which the loss of souls plunges Me.”

***Mark 8: 36-37 ***
" For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? "

That is the “bone” under the “meat” of the Catholic position. If you don’t get it , it’s probably because you just haven’t figured out yet how dearly God loves you and wants you to make it to heaven. I pray that you will given that insight - it changes everything when you have it.

 

[R_Daneel]

RDaneel, I have to say I admire your gumption.

Thank you.

I think you’ll probably find that most Catholics here will respond to this as a facetious attack on their beliefs, and perhaps that was your intent…

Well, I sure have poked into a hornet’s nest, which was my intent. The funny thing is that I was only half facetious. Of course I anticipated a lot of heated responses, but in reality I am wondering why people are so reluctant to accept the logical corollaries of their belief system.

Apart from one poster all would agree that unbaptized fetuses / zygotes will go to heaven. So from a strictly utilitarian perspective one would advocate this solution for all. As a matter of fact, since all believers want to get into heaven, and almost all believe that this Earthly existence is without any meaning on its own right - being only a “way station”, or “testing ground” - it is the only sensible solution to make this “vale of tears” as short as possible. Many declared in a forceful fashion that all the pain, misery, horror in this existence is without significance when compared to the eternal “bliss” in heaven. Why does a simple curette raise such a ruckus, when the unborn will get a “get out of jail” card free, “don’t pass Go, get directly into heaven”? Are they envious, perhaps? One must wonder.

However, I do think that within this, there is a point of cognitive dissonance to be addressed for anyone who seriously believes that miscarried human foetuses go straight to heaven - how is it morally supportable, in the light of such a belief, for abortion to be condemned as injustice? The outcome for the foetus is favourable - given what is believed to be the ultimate purpose of earthly life - even if the intent of the mother is not necessarily compassionate.

Yes. Another funny thing is that the atheist way of life is “condemned” to be without “ultimate signifance” and therefore “meaningless”, the very same people do not want the “shortcut” extended to their offspring, and they deliberately expose them to the very strong possibility that they will “fail the test” (the road to heaven is narrow, and few will get there, while the road to hell is wide, and many will get there). How cruel to deny the surefire way to get to heaven!? The amazement never stops.

 

[R_Daneel]

By your argument; it would be a mercy to kill all people who are in a state of grace.

Of course it would be. I suggest to watch the play “Sister Mary Ignatius explains it all for you”. Warning: watching this wonderful play may be detrimental to your faith.

 

[seagal]

Very simply put, the life God creates is His alone, whether it’s your life or someone else’s. You don’t have the right to destroy what doesn’t belong to you.

 

[R_Daneel]

All in all, we don’t know that aborted fetuses experience the beatific vision, but most Catholics believe it, I would guess.

Well said! You don’t know. You don’t know anything, but you believe a lot. And beliefs are dime a dozen, they have no significance.

I think you’ve been on this board long enough to have heard THE ENDS DON’T JUSTIFY THE MEANS enough times.

I agree with this very strongly. Indeed the end (in and by itself) never justifies the means. But some means and some ends can form a justifyable sequence (while others may not). Suppose that by taking away one cent (forcefully) from a very rich person would somehow (magically) alleviate all the hunger in the world? This means and that end could be justified, very easily.

What if someone wants to euthanize their grandfather because he is suffering? Of course, it is still a sin. God takes peoples desperation into accounts. But for someone who is sound of mind, and they kill someone, fetus or grandfather or anyone, is God going to praise that act? Is God going to not consider that sin? No. I’m sure by now you’ve read enough posts to realize this.

Indeed I read many posts. I also realize that you do not speak for God. Maybe you think you do, but that is no skin off my nose.

Do you want to know why no (mentally healthy) woman would ever abort her baby to get it to heaven? Because one of the commandments is “You shall not kill.” Anyone who believes that their fetus’ soul will go to heaven is going to realize that killing it will land her in hell if she doesn’t repent.

Correct - at least according to your beliefs. But she also does the ultimate and selfless sacrifice - which is the highest form of love - also according to Catholic teaching. The funny thing is that the Catholic Church tries to blow both hot and cold from its collective mouth, thereby invalidating its teachings

 

[R_Daneel]

Me thinks this is a joke trying to get us angry.

Not angry, thinking… but maybe it is a tall order…

 

[R_Daneel]

It is ultimately about as anti-life as you can get.

Exactly right. But that is not my philosophy, it is the religious (Christian) philosophy, whether realized or not. This life is only a testing ground, this life is meaningless without the assumed continuation. Nothing in this life matters when compared to the eternal bliss in heaven. The only thing that matters here is to achieve the admittance to heaven. Yes, it is as anti-life as it gets.

 

[davidv]

Thank you.

Well, I sure have poked into a hornet’s nest, which was my intent. The funny thing is that I was only half facetious. Of course I anticipated a lot of heated responses, but in reality I am wondering why people are so reluctant to accept the logical corollaries of their belief system. {snip}

I am not reluctant to accept logical corollaries of my belief system. You have not offered one in this thread. See post #8.

 

[seagal]

Not angry, thinking… but maybe it is a tall order…

Actually, you did get me thinking… about why I believe what I believe and to try to articulate it. It also got me researching exactly what the Church teaches. I love a good debate, but you didn’t change my mind.

 

[R_Daneel]

I appreciate your arguement, but it’s not likely you will ever encounter a woman whose intention to have an abortion is to save her unborn child from potential damnation. Though I know several people who think this world has gone “to hell in a handbasket” and therefore won’t have children with the intention of saving them from this hell of a world yadda yadda, none of them would have an abortion over this notion.

Very probable. But exceptions may occur.

Regardless, according to the Catholic Church, the reasons don’t justify the actions. Intent in this case doesn’t matter. According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, direct abortion is always forbidden in every circumstance. The intention of saving the fetus from him/herself is not acceptable, even if said fetus would earn a one-way ticket to paradise.

What the Catholic Church teaches is self-contradictory - just like in this case.

So, though you get an A for effort, no, this is not a theological argument FOR abortion. Nice try though

Thank you for your kind assessment, even if we disagree.

Now please go pray a rosary for all the hypertension you caused on this thread that won’t be relieved with medications, ice cream, or counting backwards from 100.

Sorry, I don’t pray… there is no one to pray to. I feel the pain of those who became frustrated from my words, but they can only blame themselves, by attempting to believe self-contradictory teachings. It simply does not work. As the saying goes: “don’t shoot the messenger”.

 

[tonyrey]

Of course I anticipated a lot of heated responses, but in reality I am wondering why people are so reluctant to accept the logical corollaries of their belief system.

Your question reveals the emptiness of your disbelief system! You spend a lot of time and energy on this forum attacking theism and Christianity because you have **nothing **to defend…

Apart from one poster all would agree that unbaptized fetuses / zygotes will go to heaven. So from a strictly utilitarian perspective one would advocate this solution for all. As a matter of fact, since all believers want to get into heaven, and almost all believe that this Earthly existence is without any meaning on its own right - being only a “way station”, or “testing ground” - it is the only sensible solution to make this “vale of tears” as short as possible.

Your distortion of Christian belief highlights your belief that earthly existence is unconditionally and categorically without any meaning. You are obviously ignorant of the fact that this life is, in the words of John Keats, a vale of soul-making rather than a meaningless spark in the darkness of eternity…

Many declared in a forceful fashion that all the pain, misery, horror in this existence is without significance when compared to the eternal “bliss” in heaven.

All the pain, misery, horror in this existence is without significance for you because you accept it as a brute fact without making any attempt to consider whether in your wisdom you can create a pain-free, misery-free, horror-free world. If life is so terrible why bother to hang around? Is it just because you’re afraid of death?

Why does a simple curette raise such a ruckus, when the unborn will get a “get out of jail” card free, “don’t pass Go, get directly into heaven”? Are they envious, perhaps? One must wonder.

Obviously you have no scruples about killing the defenceless because you regard goodness and justice as mere human conventions… Perhaps you are the one who is envious… of something else…

Another funny thing is that the atheist way of life is “condemned” to be without “ultimate signifance” and therefore “meaningless”, the very same people do not want the “shortcut” extended to their offspring, and they deliberately expose them to the very strong possibility that they will “fail the test” (the road to heaven is narrow, and few will get there, while the road to hell is wide, and many will get there).

Are you suggesting that the atheist way of life does have ultimate significance?
If so where do you obtain it? If not why pretend that it does? Of course, your version of life as a senseless joke by the blind Goddess makes nonsense of any claim to intellectual superiority on your part. Your little “agitation of the brain” - as David Hume called it - is an inadequate tool for proving anything whatsoever.

How cruel to deny the surefire way to get to heaven!? The amazement never stops.

The amazement never stops that you’re so obsessed with attacking Christianity that you can find nothing better to do! Why devote your valuable time and energy - when your life is so meaninglessly short - to sheer nonsense? Could it be that you cannot really find anything worthwhile in your mindless philosophy and are envious of those who can? Or is it because the pleasure of destruction exceeds all your other forms of entertainment while you await for extinction? After all you don’t have a glimmer of doubt that you have absolutely nothing to look forward to, do you?

 

[the_hazel_nut]

Well said! You don’t know. You don’t know anything, but you believe a lot. And beliefs are dime a dozen, they have no significance.

FONT=“Verdana”]Indeed I read many posts. I also realize that you do not speak for God. Maybe you think you do, but that is no skin off my nose.

I thought we were on a Catholic forum discussing Catholic beliefs, so I wouldn’t have to write a disclaimer. But I’ll make one, if it will make you feel better, and make me not seem like I think I’m God’s mouthpeice.

In this particular thread, I speak to my understanding of Catholic beliefs, a religion that I follow and believe in. I am not perfect when it comes to relaying these beliefs. I’m not 100% sure it is true, nor am I 100% sure that anything is true except that I, in some form, exist. I recognize the reality and merit of other belief systems, but since we are not discussing them right now, I’m going to speak from my view point, without having to make a disclaimer at every turn that what I’m saying is only my belief and doesn’t come directly from God’s mouth.

I agree with this very strongly. Indeed the end (in and by itself) never justifies the means. But some means and some ends can form a justifyable sequence (while others may not). Suppose that by taking away one cent (forcefully) from a very rich person would somehow (magically) alleviate all the hunger in the world? This means and that end could be justified, very easily.

I see what you are saying. To be honest, I’m not sure I can give an adequate response… All I can say is that murdering a human being is grave matter, and stealing one cent from a rich person is not. You are right, that in certain situations, doing something bad, is definitely justifiable.

Correct - at least according to your beliefs. But she also does the ultimate and selfless sacrifice - which is the highest form of love - also according to Catholic teaching. The funny thing is that the Catholic Church tries to blow both hot and cold from its collective mouth, thereby invalidating its teachings

What? Giving up your salvation is not the ultimate and selfless sacrifice according to Catholic teaching, because if you give up your salvation, that means you committed mortal sin, something that by definition goes against Catholic teaching. There isn’t a need to give up salvation because both people can have salvation, in any circumstance…

 

[NeedImprovement]

Thank you. …
…Apart from one poster all would agree that unbaptized fetuses / zygotes will go to heaven. So from a strictly utilitarian perspective one would advocate this solution for all. …

Would they all ? Or would we rather, do well to recall that the OP is only a force of “one” (perhaps “two” if we included his fan club).

I would suggest that even the majority of atheists and proponents of utilitarianism are against self annihilation - which is exactly where this fellow-member’s “solution” would lead. All the moreso because they place the emphasis on this earthly existence alone. The OP appears to presume to be speaking on their behalf in post # 43 (and most of his posts). He really shouldn’t presume to speak for them. According to what I’ve read, the larger part tends to concur with the universally held view that self-annihilation is the ultimate indignity to humankind.

If one is intent on presenting eccentric ideas - attempting to place them in opposition to the life in a mother’s womb , the very least one could do is to present the complete idea . However it appears the OP has not “thought” his idea all the way through. If he had , he would realize it is neither practical nor viable. And that , in turn, has me seriously considering whether he craves the attention more than the debate.

Case in point:

…
As a matter of fact, since all believers want to get into heaven, and almost all believe that this Earthly existence is without any meaning on its own right - being only a “way station”, or “testing ground” - it is the only sensible solution to make this “vale of tears” as short as possible. …T]

Judging from this comment the OP obviously has no inkling of what merit entails. It seems to be a recurring argumentative practice of his - to base an argument on erroneous presumptions of the Catholic mindset (there’s a simplified primer here catholicity.com/catechism/merit.html he might wish to read) .

Furthermore, if he had thought the aforementioned all the way through, he’d come face to face with a dilemma: Namely, exactly how do you propose this (ahem) “solution” be carried out ?

1. 
   *]Would you, in the name of this false compassion simply try and abort all the babies in the world immediately or as soon as possible in order to save the theoretically potential human beings from ever existing ?..in which case there is no basis for practicality because a human being cannot exist before it exists – culminating nonetheless **in self-annihilation. **
   
   *]Or would you go “one-up” on the Nazis by waiting and working to increase and promote conceptions so you could increase the frequency of abortions on real human beings- making their vales of tears as short as possible ? … **still self annihilation **– simply a more protracted expanded more dramatic version of it.
   
   I wish I’d seen it earlier. If the OP really belives in what he says, ultimately, he’s saying, “Lets wipe out every human being on the face of the earth”. I will be praying for him, but I earnestly hope I don’t ever waste any more of my time and emotion reading his posts - let alone responding to them.
   
   I think I’d do better to engage in something with a purpose.

 

[Desertsailor]

If this theological argument held water there would be someone cutting the throats of everyone who goes to communion on Sunday.

I can’t think of an instance where it would be necessary for a person to sacrifice his soul for another. This thought is just nuts.

 

[seagal]

What the Catholic Church teaches is self-contradictory - just like in this case.

What exactly do you see as self-contradictory?? The Church teaching is plain, it’s your spin on it that’s off-kilter.

 

[Lycorth]

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/10/1/633584945109156823-trolling.jpg

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Some questions…

You stop a beating heart every time you kill a fly or a mosquito. What makes a foetal human heart more valuable than these?

Why is a heartbeat more important than sentience? Why must the life of the foetus be valued when the foetus cannot value its own life?

The ultimate argument is that we are made in God’s image. In the end, I]He’s the guarantor of the value of human life. We certainly can’t depend on other human beings to guarantee it, can we? We kill each other by the million every year.

I take it from your argument that you think you yourself are no more important than a fly or mosquito? This means you would have no objection to someone swatting you out of existence if you merely annoyed them? That is what you have implied.

 

[Teneas]

But maybe some do. It would be a sensible idea.

What about the RU486, or “morning after” pill?

As someone that went through an abortion, no I am not a female, I can assure you that there is NOT ONE PERSON that does this act of murder with the thought of “sending their child into heaven”, so to speak. It’s a selfish act that is so horrendous that it haunts every single person that partakes in it for life. No matter what reason they may do it, it’s selfish in it’s entirety. If…IF…someone did this with thinking that they are saving the baby, that person is very very mentally unstable in the first place, and deep down it has selfish reasons behind it. Your arguments are honestly one of fiction, and imagination. While I can appreciate one’s imagination, it’s misdirected with this topic.

I pray God has mercy on your soul for even attempting this horrid thought process.

 

[R_Daneel]

In this particular thread, I speak to my understanding of Catholic beliefs, a religion that I follow and believe in. I am not perfect when it comes to relaying these beliefs. I’m not 100% sure it is true, nor am I 100% sure that anything is true except that I, in some form, exist. I recognize the reality and merit of other belief systems, but since we are not discussing them right now, I’m going to speak from my view point, without having to make a disclaimer at every turn that what I’m saying is only my belief and doesn’t come directly from God’s mouth.

Yes, I understand all of that, and take it into consideration. I know what the Catholic Church teaches, and find it contradictory. I just point out some of those contradictions.

I see what you are saying. To be honest, I’m not sure I can give an adequate response… All I can say is that murdering a human being is grave matter, and stealing one cent from a rich person is not. You are right, that in certain situations, doing something bad, is definitely justifiable.

Good.

What? Giving up your salvation is not the ultimate and selfless sacrifice according to Catholic teaching, because if you give up your salvation, that means you committed mortal sin, something that by definition goes against Catholic teaching.

This is one of the contradictions I speak of. Agape is the acting of behalf of others. If one also sacrifices something very important for the other, it is even more valuable. There is nothing greater than giving your life for someone else - I am sure you are familiar with this quote. Not all “sacrifices” are equal. The more one gives up for the benefit of others, the greater the sacrifice. And according to Catholic teaching, there is nothing more valuable, there is nothing more precious than salvation. To give that up is the ultimate sacrifice. You give up not just this Earthly life, but also your eternal one. What else can be greater than that? This is just simple logic.

There isn’t a need to give up salvation because both people can have salvation, in any circumstance…

But that is risky. The solution I offered is certain! It takes a huge sacrifice - but that is what is valued - supposedly.