A theological argument FOR abortion

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Hi Crazzeto,

I wouldn’t know where to look for a scholarly source of the matter (Note that I am not making an allegation against Catholicism when I say that conquistadores baptized babies before murderring them. Humans of all stripes are capable of terrible barbarism.), it is just the sort of historical fact that gets referred to fairly often. For example. It came up in a debate with Craig:

“evils such as those in which the conquistadors first baptized Indian infants, thus saving their souls, then dashed out their brains so as to ensure that they couldn’t become heretics”

leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-bradley2.html

Like most barabaric acts (e.g. family members killing a rape victim), I imagine it was done because they thought they were doing the right thing. These conquistadores probably didn’t think that they were putting their own souls at risk in any way and were doing God’s work.

Best,
Leela
Why don’t you start by looking at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the councils many of which may be found at www.vatican.va or www.ewtn.com. I’m not sure what you mean by “scholarly resource”, I certainly trust you’re not suggesting that you some how couldn’t trust what the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the relevant Church documents have to say about these matters, as any scholar (even the athiest ones) have to use these very same documents to form opinions. It seems rather silly to me to think that you can’t turst the source matierals.

I would suggest to you, cut the middle man out… Access the documents your self, and heck while you’re at it buy a bible and read the biblical references as well. God bless,
 
The OP’s argument is essentially “negative utilitarianism”. The extreme form is that mankind can prevent the greatest quantity of future suffering by wiping itself out… then all those people in the future who would be raped, tortured, etc. will never exist in the first place. So they won’t suffer. It is ultimately about as anti-life as you can get.

It all falls down on the premise of Consequentialism, of course. That acts receive their moral justification based on their outcomes. This is a commonplace of Liberalism, but it is a degenerated and disreputable principle.

In Catholic theology we recognize the Moral Object. The Moral Object is the act that is done. It may or may not have an intrinsic moral value, depending on its form. Rape, for example, is a moral object which is intrinsically evil. Supposing that you’re a counter-terrorism guy trying to stop the bomb from going off, and the terrorist in your custody is too tough for torture but is a devoted family man, you cannot rape his family in front of him to coerce him into telling you where the bomb is. That is because rape is intrinsically evil… the absolutely prohibited nature of the moral object in this case renders the consequence utterly irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if the bomb will destroy the whole planet… it is better that all should die rather than a rape be committed.

That’s what moral absolutes actually turn out to mean. The OP is just selling Consequentialism as an alternative to Moral Absolutism (the Catholic Faith), but he’s not couching it in those terms of course.
I guess he’s in Peter Singer’s cheerleading squad.
 
I’m not taking any bet. I’m just trying to do understand what is true and to do what is right.

And what does it mean to reject Jesus? Jesus said “Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” so clearly the issue is not belief :(. The goats and sheep will instead be separated based on a compassion test (I was hungry and you gave me to eat.) How do you know that you are more compassionate than those you are conversing with on the internet? What makes you think that you have a better shot at heaven than I do or any other nonbeliever?
God will judge whether you have tried to understand what is true and to do what is right. If your own conscience is clear that is good, but hardly the final word (see the passage you quoted, for example). As for your use of a ‘proof-text’ here, it is pretty clear evidence that you are not trying to understand what is true but are simply trying to justify your own agenda. Compare:

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” Jn 20:31
“God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:16

There are *many *texts like these (which I’m quite sure I have pointed out to you before) that speak of the central importance of belief.
Right. No one is guaranteed anything. So what makes you think that you are better off with regard to God’s judgment than R Daneel is? Doesn’t you Catholic teaching tell you that you, no matter what you do, are not worthy of salvation just as R Daneel is not worthy?
No. We believe in the reality of the transforming power of grace - we are not dung covered over with snow, as Luther taught. We actually *become *worthy through the gift of grace, which is not earned, but of which we are not passive recipients, instead with which we must actively participate.

As for RD, who knows what his issues are, God-love-him, but he is very clearly not someone who presents himself as being open to the truth, at least in what I have read (or even open to minimally respectful dialogue, as you at least are).
And I know all about Pascal’s Wager. (Have you heard of Homer’s Wager? “What if I pick the wrong God? Then I’m just making him madder and madder every time I go to Church.”) Doesn’t it apply just as well to Islam or the Mormon’s or Flying Spagetti Monster-ism any other religion that promises eternal damnation for non-adherents? And Catholicism does NOT promise eternal damnation for all non adherents, so the Wager doesn’t work. In addition, there is always the fact that one cannot will onesself to believe what one does not already believe.
You totally miss the point of the wager and in the context of this discussion we should ask, why? - is it because you’re not very bright? …or because you really prefer not to understand? I suggest reading Eklecktica’s post again.
 
Why don’t you start by looking at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the councils many of which may be found at www.vatican.va or www.ewtn.com. I’m not sure what you mean by “scholarly resource”, I certainly trust you’re not suggesting that you some how couldn’t trust what the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the relevant Church documents have to say about these matters, as any scholar (even the athiest ones) have to use these very same documents to form opinions. It seems rather silly to me to think that you can’t turst the source matierals.

I would suggest to you, cut the middle man out… Access the documents your self, and heck while you’re at it buy a bible and read the biblical references as well. God bless,
I thought you were asking about whether in fact Spanish conquistadores actually baptized some of the babies babies they murdered. I don’t know where to find a source on that, but it seems very plausible to me. I see no reason to doubt the many times I’ve heard it claimed. There is no doubt that the conquistadores performed all sorts of horrors and as Catholics it is reasonable to think that just in case the indigenous actually were human that they would have considered baptizing them.
 
You totally miss the point of the wager and in the context of this discussion we should ask, why? - is it because you’re not very bright? …or because you really prefer not to understand? I suggest reading Eklecktica’s post again.
Do you actually find Pascal’s argument to be something that people ought to consider? Even if I thought the reasoning was sound, which I don’t, I would still have no way to make myself belief in God.
 
As a non-Catholic who has only read first couple pages of this thread…

I have no idea what happens to a killed fetus, but don’t really worry about it since I have full confidence that God knows what he is doing – whether hell / limbo / heaven / non-existence / something completely different. This alone kills your argument since you have no idea that you have helped the fetus you have just killed. Catholics don’t make the claim to know for certain either.

Even if you did know that the fetus was better off being killed than being allowed to live, who are we to interfere with God’s will? If it is God’s will that the unjust should be punished, why should I take it upon myself to prevent that from happening? What good is it for me to try and subvert God’s plan? So if that fetus should grow up and be evil, and God wants it in hell, why should I decide that God is wrong and kill the fetus? Is it an evil that wrongdoers are punished? I don’t think so.

It is our duty to get people to heaven by teaching them the good news of the kingdom, not by killing them before they are allowed to do either good or evil.
 
I thought you were asking about whether in fact Spanish conquistadores actually baptized some of the babies babies they murdered. I don’t know where to find a source on that, but it seems very plausible to me. I see no reason to doubt the many times I’ve heard it claimed. There is no doubt that the conquistadores performed all sorts of horrors and as Catholics it is reasonable to think that just in case the indigenous actually were human that they would have considered baptizing them.
Perhaps I got confused as to which point you were addressing… I would ask then that such an argument not be made then and you refrain from commenting upon it in these disuccsions as there is no valid historical source to support the idea that the Spanish were baptising then murdering Indian childeren. If you can’t support such an inflamitory statement, then you best not make it as a statement of fact. So whatever points were made with this regard are completely invalid.
 
What part of Jesus saying said "Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven" is unclear? Reading only what we want to see, perhaps?

If I do my best to do the will of God, then yes, I think I DO have a better “chance”, as it were, of making it to heaven, than someone who looks but does not see, and hears but does not listen. One example: Conservative Christians have been proven to donate more to charity even when adjusting for non-religious institutional giving.
ABC News reported the following:
“ …the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation.
Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization:
“Actually, the truth is that they’re giving to more than their churches,” he says. “The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities.”
The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions. Those who think government should do more to redistribute income are less likely to give to charitable causes, and those who believe the government has less of a role to play in income redistribution tend to give more. Finally, people who couple and raise children are more likely to give philanthropically than those who do not. The more children there are in a family, the more likely that a family will donate to charity. One of Brooks’s most controversial findings was that political conservatives give more, despite having incomes that are on average 6 percent lower than liberals. Per Arthur Brooks
The typical no-faith American donated just $200 in 2006, which is more than seven times less than the amount contributed by the prototypical active-faith adult ($1500). Even when church-based giving is subtracted from the equation, active-faith adults donated twice as many dollars last year as did atheists and agnostics. In fact, while just 7% of active-faith adults failed to contribute any personal funds in 2006, that compares with 22% among the no-faith adults. From the Barna Group
If you really want to discuss whether or not Allah is a rational being, read the Koran, then read the bible. Comprehend what each is saying, in context, and compare the consistency with the two.

Further, Mohammed was a man. He was buried. Where would one find the bones of Christ? Or His Mother? Surely, for a religion as bent on artifacts and sacramentals as Christianity, they ought to be known and held high, right?

As far as the Flying Spaghetti Monster goes, really? Really? :ehh:We have given you sound arguments, based, if nothing else, in the historical record, and that’s the best the atheist movement can come up with? Or to quote Homer Simpson as a way to refute the work of someone as brilliant as Pascal? He whose development of probability theory is extremely important in economics, especially in actuarial science? Pascal is regarded as “one of the most important authors of the French Classical Period and is read today as one of the greatest masters of French prose. The content of his literary work is best remembered for its strong opposition to the rationalism of René Descartes and simultaneous **assertion that the main countervailing philosophy, empiricism, was also insufficient for determining major truths.” **

It’s almost insulting, really.

Finally, if, for example, the miracles of the resurrection and ascension and everything else associated with Christianity did NOT happen, then something even more farfetched did:

Twelve uneducated men came up with a tale of miracles, death, and resurrection, and a protagonist so compelling that thousands of people, over the course of 2000 years, would be willing to die for it. That story caused good things to happen, eg women being considered equal under the law to men, and is responsible for much of the western world. (Like it or not, Christianity is responsible for the majority of things we take for granted in the western world.) You can claim, if you like, that in the name of the christian religion, barbaric things have been done, and it would be nothing but true. However, how many people have been killed by atheists? Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot come to mind, and in light of them, the numbers affected by even the most wild accusations against Christianity pale in comparison.
 
I read most of this thread, and anybody who can’t tell that this is a troll thread needs to learn how Internet forums works. The original poster made an inflammatory comment, and despite the fallaciousness of several of his points being repeatedly pointed out, the thread-maker continues to cite how he’s easily refuted the Catholic faith and now just has to deal with the problem of angry Catholics dealing with doublethought. 🤷\

A person with a serious intent to find the truth would obviously have attempted to respond to the rebuttals as opposed to ignoring them and continuing to make silly comments.

God bless.
 
Spanish conquistadores supposedly stole babies from their Mayan mothers, baptized them, and then killed them so they would not be raised by their heathen parents to reject Jesus. They believed that they were preventing the babies from being eternally damned and ensuring a place for them in Heaven.

The logic and morality of the act seems inescapable to me given the premises. Even if the Conquistadores thought that they themselves would be damned for their murders, they were then making the greatest possible sacrifice to save the babies. Jesus said that there is no greater love than to give your life for your friend. Perhaps there is a greater love. One could give up his eternal soul in the way these Conquistadores did.

You don’t have to tell me that the idea is disgusting. It’s not my idea. It is a consequence of Catholic ideas.
I have no idea whether this actually happened but, if it did, it is just one more example of how morality flies out the window in conditions of armed struggle.

To say it represents Church teaching is a reach. These soldiers were not taking orders from the Vatican. I’d also not expect medieval soldiers to have expert knowledge of Catholic theology.

It’s about the same as saying that the atrocities perpertrated in the Soviet Union (numerically far worse than anything religion-driven) were a “consequence of atheist ideas” and blaming atheism for them.

ICXC NIKA
 
In response to the point of the Conquistadores: if those baptized babies hadn’t been smothered, perhaps they would’ve grown up to become saints, and therefore help hundreds to thousands of people. Therefore, it’s disingenuous to say that the Conquistadores were deriving good from evil; they didn’t know what the antecedent will of God is. The fact that God commands “thou shalt not kill” means that they in fact were not doing His will.

God bless.
 
Suppose that the abortion is not spontaneous, it is volitional. For the fetus the outcome is not diifferent, still a nice, cozy, warm place in heaven. Good outcome again. So, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, abortion is good. No risk of hell, only an assured place on God’s bosom.
The Church has no official teaching on what happens to those who die before the age of reason. Volitional abortions (or older child murders) are wrong for a number of reasons, none of which are directly connected to death per se. For example, murder alters the opportunity of the person to fully live out his or her role in the grand scheme of things.

Death in of itself is not immoral. We all die, and God is indeed the ultimate cause of our death. There is nothing immoral about death in the same way that there is nothing immoral about birth- it is simply a transition from one phase of life to the next. God causes this transition and there is nothing to fear from the transition itself.

The world exists as an opportunity for beings created with free will to choose to love. That’s the main reason why the world exists in the first place- as a way for us to make decisions. In a more technical sense, the world as a contingent entity exists so that we can be contingent within time (and therefore capable of change), which enables us to mold ourselves to the point where we can become unchanging in such a way that corresponds to our best interest in light of the most fundamental reality.

I would speculate that those who die in the world of matter remain within time in a non-material way, and that they are given the opportunity to choose before passing into unchangeable existence.

Therefore, abortion does not guarantee that the child will go to heaven- only the child can choose that. Abortion remains wrong because it changes the ability of the child to live out his or her role in the world, which is not a decision at our disposal to make. God may make such decisions, and he does so (for he causes death to everyone at some point, which is not immoral), but that’s not our sphere of authority.

This does not imply fatalism, for God can work through our hands. We are obliged to always work to eliminate suffering, pain, and death, and God will intervene if we go to far for our own good.

I will not have internet service for about a week.
 
The Church has no official teaching on what happens to those who die before the age of reason.
I have been wondering about this. Too many times do I get the same response: “The Church has no offical teaching” on this and on that. Looks like a Jolly Joker to me. If one cannot offer an answer to an embarracing question, it is maintained that the “Church has no offical teaching” on that particular problem.

What does the Church have “offical” teachings on? Is there a list? And please don’t refer to the Cathecism. It is neither clear, nor useful. I tried to look up problematic questions and never found more than bald assertions and empty phrases. For example, the Cathecism states that one can know God’s existence through reason alone - without referring to faith and revelation. I was most curious what that “purely rational thought process” might be. Guess what: there is nothing there. Zilch, nada, nitchevo, nothing. The empty assertion, and no details. That is the value of the Cathecism.

Now, going back to what you said. The concept of “invincible ignorance” is not an official teaching? Does the Church simply admit ignorance on the matter?
 
I have been wondering about this. Too many times do I get the same response: “The Church has no offical teaching” on this and on that. Looks like a Jolly Joker to me. If one cannot offer an answer to an embarracing question, it is maintained that the “Church has no offical teaching” on that particular problem.

What does the Church have “offical” teachings on? Is there a list? And please don’t refer to the Cathecism. It is neither clear, nor useful. I tried to look up problematic questions and never found more than bald assertions and empty phrases. For example, the Cathecism states that one can know God’s existence through reason alone - without referring to faith and revelation. I was most curious what that “purely rational thought process” might be. Guess what: there is nothing there. Zilch, nada, nitchevo, nothing. The empty assertion, and no details. That is the value of the Cathecism.

Now, going back to what you said. The concept of “invincible ignorance” is not an official teaching? Does the Church simply admit ignorance on the matter?
Pardon, what is embarrasing about not being able to answer the question as to whether or not unbaptised childeren go to heaven. There’s nothing embarrasing about it, it’s a genuinly open question as there is some tension in the data we have. The fact is, God didn’t make this one entirely clear, there for what we have is opinion not fact.
 
I have been wondering about this. Too many times do I get the same response: “The Church has no offical teaching” on this and on that. Looks like a Jolly Joker to me. If one cannot offer an answer to an embarracing question, it is maintained that the “Church has no offical teaching” on that particular problem.
At some point the honorable thing to do is admit you lost an argument rather than grasping at straws. Christians are not embarrassed by their lack of omnipotence. Neither are software engineers, biologists, physicists, historians, etc. There are some things historians will never know. Should they be embarrassed by this?
 
I have been wondering about this. Too many times do I get the same response: “The Church has no offical teaching” on this and on that. Looks like a Jolly Joker to me. If one cannot offer an answer to an embarracing question, it is maintained that the “Church has no offical teaching” on that particular problem.
On this matter, knowing what happens in this case has no practical effect- baptism by water is still the normative sacrament, and we ought not to take the innocent life of anyone- so the answer is not the most pressing issue to deal with.

Furthermore, revelation is developed by stages, and knowledge builds upon itself. Early scientists did not speculate on advanced topics, for they started with the basics. That’s what God does with His Church. Early Judaism was essentially a primitive, tribal religion. This eventually gave way to the more organized medieval period, down to our modern day. Revelation is progressive, and God continually supports a deeper and deeper understanding of the faith as humanity as a whole is more ready for it.
What does the Church have “offical” teachings on? Is there a list? And please don’t refer to the Cathecism. It is neither clear, nor useful. I tried to look up problematic questions and never found more than bald assertions and empty phrases. For example, the Cathecism states that one can know God’s existence through reason alone - without referring to faith and revelation. I was most curious what that “purely rational thought process” might be. Guess what: there is nothing there. Zilch, nada, nitchevo, nothing. The empty assertion, and no details. That is the value of the Cathecism.
The Vatican actually dumbed down the most recent catechism because not as many people are familiar with philosophy and theology as a whole. The Catechism of the Council of Trent is much more in depth, but it is therefore necessarily harder to read and understand. There are also Church encyclicals, most of which are available on the Vatican website in translation:
vatican.va/archive/index.htm
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/index_en.htm
papalencyclicals.net/
Now, going back to what you said. The concept of “invincible ignorance” is not an official teaching? Does the Church simply admit ignorance on the matter?
Invincible ignorance is an official teaching, but I’m not sure how you are tying this in to the issue at hand. On the one hand there is the disposition of the mother in terms of sin, which is completely distinct from the objective nature of the act itself. For example, it is possible to commit an objective wrong act while under invincible ignorance, which does not entail sin. However, the bad effects of the act as a whole are still there.

In regards to the salvation of the infants, invincible ignorance certainly applies to them, but this does not preclude God from offering them a chance to rationally choose to love or not. Is this what you mean?

God has not (yet) revealed what happens to infants who die in such a manner. Having this knowledge does not practically affect us, which is likely part of the reason it has not been revealed yet. It is also possible that humanity was not ready to understand the full implications of this in the past, and that at some point in the future the question will be definitively settled.
 
What does the Church have “offical” teachings on? Is there a list? And please don’t refer to the Cathecism. It is neither clear, nor useful. I tried to look up problematic questions and never found more than bald assertions and empty phrases. For example, the Cathecism states that one can know God’s existence through reason alone - without referring to faith and revelation. I was most curious what that “purely rational thought process” might be. Guess what: there is nothing there. Zilch, nada, nitchevo, nothing. The empty assertion, and no details. That is the value of the Cathecism.
:confused:

If I went to an encyclopedia and looked up the article about Harvard University, and saw that Harvard is managed by a president, would I then have to say that this encyclopedia is utterly useless if it doesn’t provide me with a biography of each and every president?

The Catechism states that the existence of God is demonstratively true by reason. Since the arguments themselves are many, and some of them are complex and usually only understandable by those with a firm grasp of philosophy, there’s no reason to expect them to be found in the CCC, a document designed for beginners to Catholicism.

I personally am a fan of St. Thomas Aquinas’ arguments for the existence of God. In particular, argument three, by which it is demonstrated that the universe cannot exist without a First Efficient Cause.
 
Clarification: Limbo is not an official teaching, as the prior link explains, but baptized infants are in fact given the grace to attain salvation:
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68
However, abortion is still wrong because it affects the ability of the baby to participate in life according to God’s plan. Life is not supposed to be about obtaining personal salvation as quickly as possible, but rather fighting in the world for the salvation of man as a whole. Killing yourself or someone else immediately after baptism is fundamentally selfish because it is an attempt to obtain personal salvation without considering the task you are entrusted with in bringing others to salvation. This ties in to original sin:
404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
 
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