A thought about being saintlike!

[eyesopening]

Hello all!!

I posted this thread in another section earlier by accident but I meant it to go here!

I often read posts by members asking is “this” a sin or is “that” a sin. Discussion ranges from masturbation, to cohabitation, to “making out”, etc. Many people are looking for confirmation that what they are already doing is “ok” and they can continue to do it. (Not everyone, but I suspect this is often the case.)

I have heard that the goal of every Catholic should be to become “A Saint!” Of course, not every Saint will be canonized, but when someone goes to heaven they are a saint. Also, of course being Saintlike involves the imitation of Christ Himself.

So my thought is merely that if we are called to be Saints, we should avoid any activity that is un-saintlike! “Can I make out with my gf if we are not married?” Ok…would it have been ok for Jesus to make-out with Mary Magdalene as long as they didn’t go “all the way?” Because if it is not a sin, then why not?

“Can I cohabit with my fiancee? We promise not to have sex!” Well, would any of the great saints of history have done this? Would you have approved of Therese of Lisieux shacking up with some guy, just until she entered the convent? She promises not to have sex!

When you put these questions into the context of what Jesus and the Saints would have done they are clear.

We are not perfect. This is why Jesus had to die on the cross and this is why he established the sacrament of confession. But…we are called to be Saints. Please!!! Be Saintlike! Avoid anything that can even remotely conceived of as a sin!

 

[underacloud]

I often read posts by members asking is “this” a sin or is “that” a sin. Discussion ranges from masturbation, to cohabitation, to “making out”, etc. Many people are looking for confirmation that what they are already doing is “ok” and they can continue to do it. (Not everyone, but I suspect this is often the case.)

I don’t think it’s fair to assume that people are merely seeking confirmation to continue in their sin. The reason for this forum is so people can seek clarification for moral issues, and we should treat people as though their questions are legitimate.

When you put these questions into the context of what Jesus and the Saints would have done they are clear.

For some issues, this is certainly a good guide. For others, it is not really relevant. For most of us, who’s vocation (eventually) is marriage and family life, we are not called to live the sorts of lives that the great saints lead. The morally grey challenges we face are naturally different, and the question “what would Jesus do” simply doesn’t apply to many issues we face.

 

[eyesopening]

I don’t think it’s fair to assume that people are merely seeking confirmation to continue in their sin. The reason for this forum is so people can seek clarification for moral issues, and we should treat people as though their questions are legitimate.

For some issues, this is certainly a good guide. For others, it is not really relevant. For most of us, who’s vocation (eventually) is marriage and family life, we are not called to live the sorts of lives that the great saints lead. The morally grey challenges we face are naturally different, and the question “what would Jesus do” simply doesn’t apply to many issues we face.

Thanks for your response!

 

[timrayk]

For most of us, who’s vocation (eventually) is marriage and family life, we are not called to live the sorts of lives that the great saints lead. The morally grey challenges we face are naturally different, and the question “what would Jesus do” simply doesn’t apply to many issues we face.

We are all called to sainthood . This is one of the biggest misunderstandings that is spread throughout the Church. Sainthood is not something reserved for the religious (Priests, Nuns, Monks, etc.).
I would recommend reading some reading by Josemaria Escriva-- “Each day be conscious of your duty to be a saint. — A saint! And that doesn’t mean doing strange things. It means a daily struggle in the interior life and in heroically fulfilling your duty right through to the end.” The Forge, 60
All Catholics have one Universal Vocation. To sainthood! Whichever primary vocation (Married, religious, or single) one is called to is simply the path to that sainthood. Something to think about .

 

[underacloud]

We are all called to sainthood . This is one of the biggest misunderstandings that is spread throughout the Church. Sainthood is not something reserved for the religious (Priests, Nuns, Monks, etc.).
I would recommend reading some reading by Josemaria Escriva-- “Each day be conscious of your duty to be a saint. — A saint! And that doesn’t mean doing strange things. It means a daily struggle in the interior life and in heroically fulfilling your duty right through to the end.” The Forge, 60
All Catholics have one Universal Vocation. To sainthood! Whichever primary vocation (Married, religious, or single) one is called to is simply the path to that sainthood. Something to think about .

I think you misunderstand my point. I certainly understand that we’re all called to sainthood; that is the very purpose of our existence. I’m just saying that the example of the canonised saints is not always relevant to answering particular topics that come up on these forums.

Jesus was called to a radically different life than anyone else. The question “what would Jesus do” doesn’t help resolve many questions that come up say between a husband and wife, or parents and children.

Many of the great saints that we venerate were also called in special ways. Their lives, their missions, their sacrifices simply aren’t comparable to what most of us are called to. To make the point most clearly, most Christians will not be called to martyrdom, while many saints are recognised for this very sacrifice of faith. Most Christians are not called to celibacy, whereas many saints were. Most Christians are not called to take on a life of poverty, whereas many saints were. Their examples are inspiring, and there are certainly lessons to be learnt from them, but there are issues that some of us face which simply aren’t answered by looking to the example of the great saints.

 

[Joy2day]

Pope John Paul 2 canonised a mother & wife who was also a professional in the medical field - possibly a dentist but i am not sure. I will try to find her name. She wasnt a spiritual director or created& led religious orders, but she qualified nonetheless for sainthood. There is a saint for everyone, & just because your life doesnt mirror theirs, it doesnt mean you cant relate to their struggles, words or examples in some things. Even if you cant relate, their words & struggles might bring great comfort & inspiration. The holy spirit often speaks through them.

 

[MarkInOregon]

For some issues, this is certainly a good guide. For others, it is not really relevant. For most of us, who’s vocation (eventually) is marriage and family life, we are not called to live the sorts of lives that the great saints lead. The morally grey challenges we face are naturally different, and the question “what would Jesus do” simply doesn’t apply to many issues we face.

Could you elaborate on this a little more? What issues do you see us facing in our daily lives where considering what Jesus would do in that situation is not relevant or does not apply? Why are we not called to live the sort of lives that the great saints lived in the context of family life?

It seems to me we (I mean Christians - especially myself and others in the affluent countries of the west) are called to live lives of much great austerity, humility, and evangelization. We have, for the most part, given and children and ourselves far too much without requiring responsibilty for it and without much thought for most of the people of the world. But before I go on–I was asking for you to elaborate on what you meant.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

I think you misunderstand my point. I certainly understand that we’re all called to sainthood; that is the very purpose of our existence. I’m just saying that the example of the canonised saints is not always relevant to answering particular topics that come up on these forums.

Jesus was called to a radically different life than anyone else. The question “what would Jesus do” doesn’t help resolve many questions that come up say between a husband and wife, or parents and children.

Many of the great saints that we venerate were also called in special ways. Their lives, their missions, their sacrifices simply aren’t comparable to what most of us are called to.

You don’t think we are all called in special ways? I think our lives, our missions and the sacrifices we are called to make can be comparable–especially as our society continues to devolve and where are values are held in increasing contempt. I think part of the problem is that most of us (and I consider myself chief among “us”) don’t want to listen to and embrace that mission and the resulting sacrifices. We want the most comfortable life we can get.

To make the point most clearly, most Christians will not be called to martyrdom, while many saints are recognised for this very sacrifice of faith.

Perhaps we are not living our faith boldly enough. We are all called to make sacrifices for our faith–you will see on some of these forums people questioning whether or not they can keep their job–if it requires them to engage in immoral actions–that society approves of. While this is not death–it is a heavy sacrifice–especially if one has a family. It is a sacrifice that requires great trust and faith in God. Many of us simply lack that trust–and seek to justify keeping our jobs. Increasingly proclaiming your faith and standing up for what you believe may ostracize you from your “friends” or family or clients or possibly keep you from getting a job, and so often we are silent.

Most Christians are not called to celibacy, whereas many saints were.

But any unmarried Christian is called to chastity–for those who never marry what is the difference?

Most Christians are not called to take on a life of poverty, whereas many saints were.

Are you sure about this–maybe it is our definition of poverty. I would argue that we, in the west, are all called to lives of much greater austerity than the vast majority of us lead. Look around at how much is wasted in our society and at how most people live. I can’t believe how many young children I see with smart phones, i-this and i-that, their own computer and TV etc. Look at how much more stuff we have than just 30 years ago–do we really need it all? Does every room need a TV–and not just a TV but a giant TV. Look at how much larger the average house is today than 40 years ago. Do our children really need their own rooms? I realize that not everyone lives like this, but look around.

So if not poverty it is at least a life much more austere–I would tend to think.

Their examples are inspiring, and there are certainly lessons to be learnt from them, but there are issues that some of us face which simply aren’t answered by looking to the example of the great saints.

The examples of our lives–should be inspiring. Perhaps that’s our problem. Perhaps that’s why so many leave the faith. Perhaps that why our society is moving further and futher away from our values–they don’t see the vast majority of us living lives inspired by our faith–instead they see us pursuing the american dream–not Gods call. In everything we do, in every issue we face–we should be asking: “How does this further Gods kingdom?”–and that is precisely the answer we find by looking to the example of the great saints. The situations may be different but the answer isn’t–how do I best further the kingdom of God? If we all do that–we will once again transform the world.

I don’t think the lives we are called to is so different.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[eyesopening]

You don’t think we are all called in special ways? I think our lives, our missions and the sacrifices we are called to make can be comparable–especially as our society continues to devolve and where are values are held in increasing contempt. I think part of the problem is that most of us (and I consider myself chief among “us”) don’t want to listen to and embrace that mission and the resulting sacrifices. We want the most comfortable life we can get.

Perhaps we are not living our faith boldly enough. We are all called to make sacrifices for our faith–you will see on some of these forums people questioning whether or not they can keep their job–if it requires them to engage in immoral actions–that society approves of. While this is not death–it is a heavy sacrifice–especially if one has a family. It is a sacrifice that requires great trust and faith in God. Many of us simply lack that trust–and seek to justify keeping our jobs. Increasingly proclaiming your faith and standing up for what you believe may ostracize you from your “friends” or family or clients or possibly keep you from getting a job, and so often we are silent.

But any unmarried Christian is called to chastity–for those who never marry what is the difference?

Are you sure about this–maybe it is our definition of poverty. I would argue that we, in the west, are all called to lives of much greater austerity than the vast majority of us lead. Look around at how much is wasted in our society and at how most people live. I can’t believe how many young children I see with smart phones, i-this and i-that, their own computer and TV etc. Look at how much more stuff we have than just 30 years ago–do we really need it all? Does every room need a TV–and not just a TV but a giant TV. Look at how much larger the average house is today than 40 years ago. Do our children really need their own rooms? I realize that not everyone lives like this, but look around.

So if not poverty it is at least a life much more austere–I would tend to think.

The examples of our lives–should be inspiring. Perhaps that’s our problem. Perhaps that’s why so many leave the faith. Perhaps that why our society is moving further and futher away from our values–they don’t see the vast majority of us living lives inspired by our faith–instead they see us pursuing the american dream–not Gods call. In everything we do, in every issue we face–we should be asking: “How does this further Gods kingdom?”–and that is precisely the answer we find by looking to the example of the great saints. The situations may be different but the answer isn’t–how do I best further the kingdom of God? If we all do that–we will once again transform the world.

I don’t think the lives we are called to is so different.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

Thank you for this post. I agree with you completely. When I was a child, I was once told by an adult, “It’s good to believe in God and go to church and all that, but just make sure it doesn’t interfere with your daily life.” She went on to use the phrase, “Make sure that you’re not so heavenly minded, that you’re no earthly good!” Of course, today I realize what a terrible example this was for a child. It is this attitude that I believe plagues many Christians today. In the case of some, I believe that Christianity serves the function as mere “fire insurance” when it should instead be a life changing philosophy that affects every decision every day.

 

[underacloud]

You don’t think we are all called in special ways? I think our lives, our missions and the sacrifices we are called to make can be comparable–especially as our society continues to devolve and where are values are held in increasing contempt. I think part of the problem is that most of us (and I consider myself chief among “us”) don’t want to listen to and embrace that mission and the resulting sacrifices. We want the most comfortable life we can get.

Yes, I do think each of us is called by God to a special vocation. Mine is as a husband/father, and I do believe that it is my special vocation. It is nonetheless different from the calling received by many of the canonised saints. That’s all I meant. Perhaps “different” would have been a better word to use, and relates more to what I meant in general.

I do agree with you that each of us has to embrace the mission and sacfrices we are called to make, and in that regard the example of saints is a great encouragement.

Are you sure about this–maybe it is our definition of poverty. I would argue that we, in the west, are all called to lives of much greater austerity than the vast majority of us lead. Look around at how much is wasted in our society and at how most people live. I can’t believe how many young children I see with smart phones, i-this and i-that, their own computer and TV etc. Look at how much more stuff we have than just 30 years ago–do we really need it all? Does every room need a TV–and not just a TV but a giant TV. Look at how much larger the average house is today than 40 years ago. Do our children really need their own rooms? I realize that not everyone lives like this, but look around.

So if not poverty it is at least a life much more austere–I would tend to think

Yes, this is very true. And not just a more austere life, but a more detached life. Detached from material goods in particular. And again I agree here that any saints provide great inspiration.

The examples of our lives–should be inspiring. Perhaps that’s our problem. Perhaps that’s why so many leave the faith. Perhaps that why our society is moving further and futher away from our values–they don’t see the vast majority of us living lives inspired by our faith–instead they see us pursuing the american dream–not Gods call. In everything we do, in every issue we face–we should be asking: “How does this further Gods kingdom?”–and that is precisely the answer we find by looking to the example of the great saints. The situations may be different but the answer isn’t–how do I best further the kingdom of God? If we all do that–we will once again transform the world.

I don’t think the lives we are called to is so different.

I think that when someone posts here with a complex (to them, at least) moral problem, they start from the position that they are trying to further God’s kingdom in their own lives by doing His will, but they don’t understand what exactly that means in a given situation. Catholic moral theory is a complex discipline, and there are some questions that require deeper thought that merely saying we should do “what Jesus would do” or “what the saints would do”. I think for many questions it is more helpful to explore the abstract theory, as discussed in the catechism and by saints such as Augustine, Aquinas, Francis de Sales, etc, than it is to refer to the example of saints. Where relevant (and there are not always relevant examples) the lives of the saints can be helpful too.

I hope that clarifies what I meant a little better.

 

[underacloud]

Could you elaborate on this a little more? What issues do you see us facing in our daily lives where considering what Jesus would do in that situation is not relevant or does not apply? Why are we not called to live the sort of lives that the great saints lived in the context of family life?

It seems to me we (I mean Christians - especially myself and others in the affluent countries of the west) are called to live lives of much great austerity, humility, and evangelization. We have, for the most part, given and children and ourselves far too much without requiring responsibilty for it and without much thought for most of the people of the world. But before I go on–I was asking for you to elaborate on what you meant.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

Sorry, I missed this earlier.

I don’t want to get too graphic in my examples, but there a couple of fairly common questions on this forum that I don’t think we can answer by the example of Jesus or the saints, but need to review moral theology, consult the catechism and other relevant sources, debate the opinion of moral theologians, etc…

a) what can and can’t a married couple do in the bedroom?
b) what should a young man/woman with a habit (addiction?) of masturbation do with regard to not being able to get to confession often, receiving the Eucharist, etc?

The first one is a very popular topic around here, although I think the moderators would prefer it wasn’t such a focus. I can’t think of how the example of Jesus or the saints helps answer these sorts of questions, apart from the more general principle that the spouses should seek to love each other selflessly in whatever they are doing. But when we get into the detail, which is generally what people want to know about, it’s a more abstract moral issue with differing opinions among respected theologians.

The second one; again, the example of Jesus and the saints provides an inspiration to any young man or woman struggling with temptation, but there remains complex issues about when it is a habit, perhaps exacerbated with anxiety etc, and what they ought to do. There’s usually enough responses encouraging such a person to seek regular spiritual direction from a confessor who can provide appropriate instruction, but it’s still helpful for the person to know what the relevant teachings and considerations are when they post such questions here. Anyone with a great love for Christ and receiving the Eucharist, yet afflicted with such a habit and struggle with temptation, deserves more nuanced guidance than mere admonition.

Do those examples help clarify the sorts of issues that I think aren’t really answerable with the response “do what Jesus would do”?

 

[eyesopening]

Sorry, I missed this earlier.

I don’t want to get too graphic in my examples, but there a couple of fairly common questions on this forum that I don’t think we can answer by the example of Jesus or the saints, but need to review moral theology, consult the catechism and other relevant sources, debate the opinion of moral theologians, etc…

a) what can and can’t a married couple do in the bedroom?
b) what should a young man/woman with a habit (addiction?) of masturbation do with regard to not being able to get to confession often, receiving the Eucharist, etc?

The first one is a very popular topic around here, although I think the moderators would prefer it wasn’t such a focus. I can’t think of how the example of Jesus or the saints helps answer these sorts of questions, apart from the more general principle that the spouses should seek to love each other selflessly in whatever they are doing. But when we get into the detail, which is generally what people want to know about, it’s a more abstract moral issue with differing opinions among respected theologians.

The second one; again, the example of Jesus and the saints provides an inspiration to any young man or woman struggling with temptation, but there remains complex issues about when it is a habit, perhaps exacerbated with anxiety etc, and what they ought to do. There’s usually enough responses encouraging such a person to seek regular spiritual direction from a confessor who can provide appropriate instruction, but it’s still helpful for the person to know what the relevant teachings and considerations are when they post such questions here. Anyone with a great love for Christ and receiving the Eucharist, yet afflicted with such a habit and struggle with temptation, deserves more nuanced guidance than mere admonition.

Do those examples help clarify the sorts of issues that I think aren’t really answerable with the response “do what Jesus would do”?

My statements in the original post were geared more to the people that I have noticed that will say, in essence, “How close to sinning can I get without it actually being a sin?” The questions that I see from young people who want to make out with their gf/bf are a good example of this. Another one I see frequently is “I know the church teaches that we shouldn’t live together before marriage, BUT…” In fact all the “but…” questions are really the focus of what I am talking about. Note, that we are not talking about people who need clarification on what the church teaches, nor are we talking about people who are habitually involved in a sin and struggling. I am talking about folks who know the clear teaching but who want to look for some exception that makes it okay for them to do what they want. To these people I hold up the saints as an example and exhort them to live saintlike.

To put it another way, the folks who pose the “but…” questions have usually already engaged in an illicit activity and they know it. Many times the questions will be posed so that someone here on the forum will hopefully say, “since your intentions are not evil, it is not a sin, keep doing what you are doing.” Often, people will not give them this confirmation and they will become agitated and belligerent and will argue vociferously that what they are doing is indeed NOT a sin, regardless of what kind of answers they get. Again, I am not talking about people who have hardships, nor am I talking about those who need clarification on church teaching. I am talking about those who know church teaching but have chosen to ignore it on what they consider special circumstances.

Hope that clarifies the point of my post.

 

[underacloud]

To put it another way, the folks who pose the “but…” questions have usually already engaged in an illicit activity and they know it. Many times the questions will be posed so that someone here on the forum will hopefully say, “since your intentions are not evil, it is not a sin, keep doing what you are doing.” Often, people will not give them this confirmation and they will become agitated and belligerent and will argue vociferously that what they are doing is indeed NOT a sin, regardless of what kind of answers they get. Again, I am not talking about people who have hardships, nor am I talking about those who need clarification on church teaching. I am talking about those who know church teaching but have chosen to ignore it on what they consider special circumstances.

Hope that clarifies the point of my post.

Ah, I understand better now, thanks. Sorry if I went off on the wrong track.

Yes, we do get posts like that. Especially where they don’t get the “approval” they seek and turn on the rest of the posters.

 

[FrancisBenedict]

A different view.

Yes we are all called to be saints and it’s in the lives we find ourselves in that we are called to do it.

Probably every saint made mistakes in their life. We are all human, we all crave affection and intimacy sometimes, that is natural, we are not perfect that is why we need grace.

It is possible for a couple to live together and not have sex and that not be a sin. I think that’s known as a brother-sister relationship and I understand its permitted. I lived like this myself for 7 years and read that if I explained to the priest, I could have full communion (after confession).

Pax vobiscum +

 

[eyesopening]

A different view.

Yes we are all called to be saints and it’s in the lives we find ourselves in that we are called to do it.

Probably every saint made mistakes in their life. We are all human, we all crave affection and intimacy sometimes, that is natural, we are not perfect that is why we need grace.

It is possible for a couple to live together and not have sex and that not be a sin. I think that’s known as a brother-sister relationship and I understand its permitted. I lived like this myself for 7 years and read that if I explained to the priest, I could have full communion (after confession).

Pax vobiscum +

I have heard of such a thing, however it usually involves a couple who have lived as husband and wife for many years and late in life discover that in order to join the church they must remain chaste until the marriage is validated or a previous marriage annulled, or similar circumstance. My understanding is that this information is kept private between the priest and the couple, so that even if an annulment is not granted, the other people within the local community never know that the marriage is irregular. Of course, the couple privately remains chaste.

It is important to understand that young people who decide to move in together (to give it a try) are sinning even if they do not have sex because the entire community knows that they are not married but will assume that they ARE having sex. This is called “the near occasion of sin” or “giving rise to scandal.” Note that this is a totally different situation than an established couple who “find” themselves in an irregular ecclesial status, which the community never needs to know about. So I am not picking on such a couple. My own parents are in this situation.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Is part of the thrust of this thread to consider sins as important issue, rather than just finding out “how serious” it is and basing decisions on that?

Personally I don’t think whether a sin is mortal or venial is important. If something is sinful, I want to improve so that I don’t do it. I don’t want to do venial sins any more or less than mortal ones, and I need to rid them from my life.

That said, I don’t consider accidents, or things when I meant well but it turned out I was wrong, as sins at all. If they are venial sins, I don’t see what the point in calling them “sins” is, if it was not an act of the will against God. St. Teresa of Avila made this distinction between “inadvertent venial sin” and “advertent” venial sin, the latter of which is freely chosen and deliberate.

St Teresa of Avila on venial sin:

Be careful and attentive – this is very important – until you see that you are strongly determined not to offend the Lord, that you would lose a thousand lives rather than commit venial sins – that is, advertently, for otherwise, who can go without committing many?

St. Teresa understands the scripture “Though the just fall seven times, they rise again, but the wicked stumble from only one mishap.” (Prov 24:16) to mean the person who is basically righteous, but inadvertently committing venial sins, will not be impeded by someone who deliberately chooses.

St Teresa on “advertent” venial sin:

It seems to me a sin is very deliberate when, for example, one says: “Lord, You see it, and I know You do not want it, and I understand this; but I want to follow my whim and appetite more than Your will.” It doesn’t seem to me possible that something like this can be called little, however light the fault; but it’s serious, very serious.

Alan

 

[MarkInOregon]

Yes, I do think each of us is called by God to a special vocation. Mine is as a husband/father, and I do believe that it is my special vocation. It is nonetheless different from the calling received by many of the canonised saints. That’s all I meant. Perhaps “different” would have been a better word to use, and relates more to what I meant in general.

I do agree with you that each of us has to embrace the mission and sacfrices we are called to make, and in that regard the example of saints is a great encouragement.

Yes, this is very true. And not just a more austere life, but a more detached life. Detached from material goods in particular. And again I agree here that any saints provide great inspiration.

I think that when someone posts here with a complex (to them, at least) moral problem, they start from the position that they are trying to further God’s kingdom in their own lives by doing His will, but they don’t understand what exactly that means in a given situation. Catholic moral theory is a complex discipline, and there are some questions that require deeper thought that merely saying we should do “what Jesus would do” or “what the saints would do”. I think for many questions it is more helpful to explore the abstract theory, as discussed in the catechism and by saints such as Augustine, Aquinas, Francis de Sales, etc, than it is to refer to the example of saints. Where relevant (and there are not always relevant examples) the lives of the saints can be helpful too.

I hope that clarifies what I meant a little better.

I hope I didn’t offend you. This is just an area I think about, it is an area I wish I was doing better in, it is an area I struggle in. And I think at times when I write my tone may not come accross when people read it than it came out of my head with.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

Sorry, I missed this earlier.

I don’t want to get too graphic in my examples, but there a couple of fairly common questions on this forum that I don’t think we can answer by the example of Jesus or the saints, but need to review moral theology, consult the catechism and other relevant sources, debate the opinion of moral theologians, etc…

a) what can and can’t a married couple do in the bedroom?
b) what should a young man/woman with a habit (addiction?) of masturbation do with regard to not being able to get to confession often, receiving the Eucharist, etc?

The first one is a very popular topic around here, although I think the moderators would prefer it wasn’t such a focus. I can’t think of how the example of Jesus or the saints helps answer these sorts of questions, apart from the more general principle that the spouses should seek to love each other selflessly in whatever they are doing. But when we get into the detail, which is generally what people want to know about, it’s a more abstract moral issue with differing opinions among respected theologians.

The second one; again, the example of Jesus and the saints provides an inspiration to any young man or woman struggling with temptation, but there remains complex issues about when it is a habit, perhaps exacerbated with anxiety etc, and what they ought to do. There’s usually enough responses encouraging such a person to seek regular spiritual direction from a confessor who can provide appropriate instruction, but it’s still helpful for the person to know what the relevant teachings and considerations are when they post such questions here. Anyone with a great love for Christ and receiving the Eucharist, yet afflicted with such a habit and struggle with temptation, deserves more nuanced guidance than mere admonition.

Do those examples help clarify the sorts of issues that I think aren’t really answerable with the response “do what Jesus would do”?

Thank you–it does give insight into what you were driving at. Can’t argue that those are not extremely popular topics on here–as they certainly are. And I can’t argue with you statement “deserves more nuance guidance than mere admonition”–as anyone seeking to rid their life of whatever habitual sin(s) happen to be theirs–deserves any help and guidance they can get–hopefully delivered in a charitable manner.

That said with regards to the type of questions that seem to be about how far can I go-- I guess I am of the camp - that if you’re asking the question–you kind of know the answer or at the least–if it is that gray or questionable perhaps the safe thing is to avoid. I guess I don’t see the great saints trying to walk as close to the line of permitted behavior as possible but rather trying to run as far from that line as possible–that was the point I was trying to make. I guess I equate the question “what would Jesus do?” with “Does this further the kingdom of God?”–and anytime we are trying to get close to the “is this a sin line” – I think the safe answer is – probably not–so err on the side of caution. I realize this is extemely broad and generalized and does not address the issue of scrupulosity(sp). I’m just commenting in general terms. Perhaps that is my problem.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[underacloud]

I hope I didn’t offend you. This is just an area I think about, it is an area I wish I was doing better in, it is an area I struggle in. And I think at times when I write my tone may not come accross when people read it than it came out of my head with.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

No, not offended at all. Your posts were well reasoned and appropriate to the discussion.

I know, all too well, that tone is difficult to convey in written form. I worry that my posts in these sorts of forums do not come across as I intended either. But I didn’t find your posts to be at all offensive, and I hope likewise that mine were not offensive.

 

[eyesopening]

I agree with Alanfromwichita that whether a sin is mortal or venial is less important than why a person is committing that sin. As believers we should be against sin totally. Sadly, our human nature often interferes. However, I think the point of the thread is to correct those who attempt to make God’s laws and the Church’s mandates “line-up” with their personal behavior already in progress, rather than the other way around. Being protestant for many years, I often evaluated my behavior based on whether or not I personally “felt convicted” about certain actions. When I didn’t go to church on Sunday I would come up with a number of excuses why I was justified in not going, none of which were very good. (I am not saying that there is no reason EVER to miss Mass.) If I got a little too handsy with my gf I would tell myself that “I don’t feel convicted, therefore it mustn’t be a sin.” Often, how I felt dictated whether or not I believed I was sinning.

Lets be clear, how one “feels” about their behavior has very little relevance to God when his law is broken. I could just as easily say, “I don’t ‘feel’ that homosexual actions are sinful, therefore I will continue to live as I wish.” I honestly believe it is a sort of denial that individuals go through. They enjoy a particular activity, they wish to continue in that activity, and so they convince themselves against the plain teachings of the Church that they personally have an exception to the rule. I once knew a man who was a Christian who openly had sexual relations with his girlfriend out of wedlock. He claimed that he did not believe that this was sinful because he and his gf “loved” one another very much. “We even pray afterward together!” he would tell me. Do you see how he has disregarded the teachings of Christianity in favor of his “feelings” on the matter?

This is also where we get the term “Cafeteria Catholic.” Like in a cafeteria, these individuals select which bits to believe in and leave the rest. I have a friend who loves to post things on Facebook like, “I am a devout Catholic, but I believe that the Church’s teachings on ‘this’ or ‘that’ are a little extreme.” I would posit that anyone who says such a thing has just given the lie to the statement that they are a “devout Catholic.”

When we are confirmed we say “I do” to the teachings of the Church. Just like a marriage vow. Every time we deny one of the teachings of the church, we “cheat” on the Church, just as if a man or woman were to break their marriage vows.

Therefore, going back to my original argument, if it was sinful for Jesus, it is sinful for you. This is not a “what would Jesus do?” statement. It points out the objective sinfulness of certain actions, beyond human feelings. Sin must be objectively evil. It is not something that is sinful for some people and not others. There are no reasons that make a sin “not sinful.” (If it qualifies as sin, of course. Grave matter, full knowledge, full consent."

If you sin in a grave matter, you have full knowledge, and you give full consent, it is a sin, whether or not you feel like you have sinned! Follow the teachings of the Church. They will not lead one astray.

Sorry that was so long!