A thought about being saintlike!

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eyesopening said:
Thank you for the references. I would very much like to read these works. I will check them out. The bold comments above are my annotation.
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Thank you for listening. The prosecution rests. 😉

And you won’t regret checking out the writings of these saints. You have nothing to lose except your life as you know it, and nothing to gain except the kingdom! :heaven:

I’m reading a book you might like, recommended highly by another poster, called “The Fulfillment of All Desire: A Guidebook for the Journey to God Based on the Wisdom of the Saints.”

Let me warn you, though, about the Cloud … it’s a bit odd for someone who hasn’t ever been introduced to the “apophatic” tradition of the Church. If it doesn’t speak to you, don’t force it. Plus a lot of translations are hard to read; I got the one by William Johnston based on my spiritual director’s recommendation.

Briefly, the “Cloud of Knowing” is everything we know and can imagine in our minds, including everything we believe and including all the words we can find to “describe” God. But God is bigger than this. Our “Cloud of the Knowing” is but a tiny bit of God’s universe, so to find God we have to get past our normal ways of thinking (which is why Jesus challenged our “old wineskins” by giving us seemingly impossible paradoxes) and enter into the Cloud of the Unknowing. Contemplative prayer “forms” endeavor to do just that. If you’ve not heard of them, you should. (CCC 2708 makes use of the word “should” so it’s not just IMO ;)) Note that in “Expressions of Prayer,” CCC 2700-2724, there is more about contemplative prayer than about vocal and meditative, combined.

And as far as the Dark Night of the Soul, you can read it here on ewtn.com.

I can’t resist dragging out the Stanzas of the Soul, on which the Dark Night is based, depicting the way a soul sees itself leaving in the safety of the Dark Night (contemplative moments for example) and finding its lover and achieve perfection, resulting in heavenly bliss. I love it; even copying and pasting it gives me so much joy my eyes water. YMMV…

STANZAS OF THE SOUL
Code: 
	1. One dark night,
	fired with love's urgent longings
	  -- ah, the sheer grace! -- 
	I went out unseen,
	my house being now all stilled.
	
	2. In darkness, and secure,
  	by the secret ladder, disguised,
	 -- ah, the sheer grace! -- 
	in darkness and concealment,
	my house being now all stilled.

	3. On that glad night,
  	in secret, for no one saw me,
	nor did I look at anything,
	with no other light or guide
	than the one that burned in my heart.

	4. This guided me
     	more surely than the light of noon
	to where he was awaiting me
	 -- him I knew so well -- 
	there in a place where no one appeared.

	5. O guiding night!
  	O night more lovely than the dawn!
	O night that has united
	the Lover with his beloved,
	transforming the beloved in her Lover.

	6. Upon my flowering breast
  	which I kept wholly for him alone,
	there he lay sleeping,
	and I caressing him
	there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

	7. When the breeze blew from the turret,
  	as I parted his hair,
  	it wounded my neck
	with its gentle hand,
	suspending all my senses.

	8. I abandoned and forgot myself,
  	laying my face on my Beloved;
	all things ceased; I went out from myself,
	leaving my cares
	forgotten among the lilies.
Gosh I keep editing this thing. Let’s hope the 20 minute timer runs out soon. 😛 Here’s a hymn based on Job and St. John of the Cross, that I really love. This might help you see a glimpse of the “apophatic” tradition… Holy Darkness, by Dan Schutte.

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita said:
Apparently some posters think I mean “make out” when I say “hang out.” :newidea:

I hang out with my friends. That’s what Jesus did, as far as I know. When I ask my son if I can hang out with him and his friends, it means to sit around and talk. If somebody wants to put a sexual context into it, then I wish somebody would have told me this right up front. If you think “hang out” is a code for trying to have sexual intercourse, like apparently it means to some demented people on the Internet that Google turns up, then explain that. Put your cards on the table so I know what you are accusing me of saying – or worse yet, assume what I mean without even the decency to accuse me of saying those things – like it’s so obvious to everyone that you don’t need to explain my pathetic problem. You could just as well find perverted stuff about Jesus by just Googling “did jesus have sex with mary magdalene” and eliminating the middle man. I had no idea I had to defend my term against such a lurid interpretation. I suppose it shows my age; back in the day one wasn’t accused of a suggestive meaning unless they actually used a suggestive term. Not “hanging out.” :rolleyes:

This reminds me of the nuns I had as teachers in grade school. I was socially unaware, so I would answer their questions honestly and they thought I was being disrespectful. But I had no idea what I had said wrong and if I asked, “what did I say/do wrong?” that would only get me into more trouble and they would shriek, “YOU know VERY WELL what you did, young man!” :mad: :mad:

Alan
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Alan,

When people use the phrase hanging out–as many are want to do with regard to Jesus and sinners–I am not thinking of making out. I am thinking of the definitions such as: to socialize with in public, to walk around chilling on the streets, to frequent a public place–especially in idling away ones free time, to loiter in public places. If someone called me up and said they wanted to hang out–I’d assume they had some free time to kill and wanted to grab a beer and chat for no particular purpose. I further think that when–those opposed to the Churches teaching on any given issue–use the phrase they use it as follows: Jesus hung out and ate with sinners and tax collectors, this means Jesus was tolerant of those engaging in wrongful behavior and therefore we (those opposed to the behavior) are flouting the example of Jesus by our intolerance. I do’t think that’s what Jesus eating with sinners and tax collectors means but I think when we allow the use of the phrase “hanging out” we help inadvertantly give credence to that argument.

I don’t think I accussed you of saying anything or implying anything indecent. From my posts I would have thought it was obvious that I think hanging out–is chilling for no purpose, idling time away etc. Heck I used the word idle in at least one of my previous posts. I think all of Jesus interaction has a purpose–I don’t think he whiled away his limited time here on earth just hangin out.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Kevin12 said:
It is possible that I was judging you, though I was trying not to. I was trying to point out that I have a sister who has done something that could be seen as much worse then passively approving of an evil, and yet by pointing out how she was in error time after time when she already knew my opinion, I was acting not out of love but pride, and that I ultimately drove her further from the Church. I will say, I do not condemn you, I do not know that what you have done is wrong. Only that to warn you from my own experience to beware of pride.
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You seem to have made a lot of assumptions regarding my interactions with my sister. For starters I don’t point out that she is in error time after time. I don’t repeatedly bring up the subject and tell her she is wrong. We, at times, have wide ranging discussions on a variety of issues–she has no problem stating her opinion and I have no problem stating and defending mine. When the issues come up I don’t see why I should shy away from stating and defending the Churches position. It may plant a seed. I know over the years there were times when I heard something and it fell on deaf ears. We hear when we are ready–what if when we are ready no one gives us the message? We should be able to state our beliefs in such a way that people are not angered or offened. I know my sister thinks I am wrong on a variety of issues–why should I get upset about that? And conversley she know that I think she is wrong on a variety of issues–why should she be upset about that?
As to sharing a table, it says in Matthew 9:9

And when Jesus passed on from hence, he saw a man sitting in the custom house, named Matthew; and he saith to him: Follow me. And he rose up and followed him. [10] And it came to pass as he was sitting at meat in the house, behold many publicans and sinners came, and sat down with Jesus and his disciples.

[11] And the Pharisees seeing it, said to his disciples: Why doth your master eat with publicans and sinners? [12] But Jesus hearing it, said: They that are in health need not a physician, but they that are ill. [13] Go then and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the just, but sinners.

Christ went to the custom house, and he ate their, and many who were despised as sinners came to the custom house and ate there. They were not seeking him out - it was a tax-collectors house Jesus had gone into in the first place, and it is only natural that publicans would eat there.
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I did not ask about sharing a table - I don’t think that is in dispute? Can we examine the story you cite?
  1. Jesus passes by Matthew/Levi sitting at his post
  2. Jesus calls to Matthew/Levi “follow me”
  3. Matthew/Levi gets up and follows Jesus. We learn from Luke that in so doing he left everything behind.
  4. We learn in Luke that this is not just a meal, not just sitting at the table but that this was a banquet, a great feast given for Jesus by Matthew/Levi at his own house.
  5. The tax collectors and sinners came and sat with Jesus and his disciples --for there were many who followed him per Mark (the saint not me the sinner)
The points I would make are:
  1. That Matthew/Levi is no longer a tax collector–he is a follower of Jesus–a disciple. He has answered the call to follow Christ. He has given up his old life.
  2. When we look at all three gospels we see this is not just Jesus showing up at the tax collection post and sitting down with a bunch of tax collectors to hang out and share a meal. It is a banquet a feast given for Jesus by Matthew/Levi who is now a follower of Christ.
  3. Given that it is a banquet for Jesus at Matthew/Levi’s own house – I am not sure it is entirely accurate to say that they were not seeking Jesus out and that it is natural that they’d be eating at Matthew/Levi’s house anyway.
  4. There is no indication in the story regarding their (those referred to as sinners and tax collectors) repentance or unrepentance or neutrality (which is always an option - they are investigating).
So I don’t think this can be cited as an example of what I was asking for–which is what I think many people claim Christ did on a routine basis and which I just don’t see Biblical evidence for. This is not a debate about Christ eating with tax collectors and sinners – which he clearly did but about the nature of that interaction and the sinners.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
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