A three marriage problem-thoughts

  • Thread starter Thread starter rjfr
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rjfr

Guest
Wondering what your thoughts are on this situation (trying to help a friend figure out whether to pursue an annulment).

Man and woman, both Catholic, marry in the Catholic church. The man has been married twice before–and both marriages civilly end with divorce. One marriage in the Lutheran church, the other justice of the peace. Neither annulled. Both of course are invalid due to lack of form.

Priest tells couple that man’s prior marriages “don’t matter” because they were invalid due to lack of form.

The marriage ends; years later, the woman is now seeking annulment. Looks like ligamen to me, with bad advice from the priest who presided over their marriage.

What do you think, wise ones?
 
The lady needs to seek the advice of a wise and holy priest; he will be in the best position to evaluate her status and help her file paperwork for an annulment, if needed.
 
rjfr said:
Wondering what your thoughts are on this situation (trying to help a friend figure out whether to pursue an annulment).

Man and woman, both Catholic, marry in the Catholic church. The man has been married twice before–and both marriages civilly end with divorce. One marriage in the Lutheran church, the other justice of the peace. Neither annulled. Both of course are invalid due to lack of form.

Priest tells couple that man’s prior marriages “don’t matter” because they were invalid due to lack of form.

The marriage ends; years later, the woman is now seeking annulment. Looks like ligamen to me, with bad advice from the priest who presided over their marriage.

What do you think, wise ones?
Click to expand...
It does sound like she has a case–so she should see a more by-the-book priest and pursue an annulment.

(And this is also an excellent argument for not turning annulments into a DIY project at the parish level.)
 
rjfr said:
Priest tells couple that man’s prior marriages “don’t matter” because they were invalid due to lack of form.
Click to expand...
The priest is correct.

There is no process in canon law for such a marriage because it isn’t a marriage at all. In the US, Canada, and some other countries, prior to marriage in the Church such “lack of form” marriage attempts are documented through the diocesan tribunal. In other parts of the world, they are handled by the pastor during marriage preparation.

Bottom line-- there was no impediment. The man was free to marry.
rjfr said:
The marriage ends; years later, the woman is now seeking annulment. Looks like ligamen to me, with bad advice from the priest who presided over their marriage.
Click to expand...
There is no Ligamen case, because no prior bond exists. Catholics who marry outside Catholic form without dispensation do not have valid marriages. These invalid marriages do not enjoy the favor of the law.
rjfr said:
What do you think, wise ones?
Click to expand...
The woman must proceed at the direction of her pastor and the tribunal. But, no, Ligamen will not be the process. She would have to have grounds to bring a full tribunal case for nullity.
 
Xantippe said:
she should see a more by-the-book priest and pursue an annulment.
Click to expand...
The priest did things according to canon law.

There may be administrative processes in place in a diocese, and the priest should certainly follow administrative procedures. But the priest actually did do his due diligence as pertains to freedom to marry.

We do not know the particulars of why or where this investigation occurred as it did. It could have been somewhere that does not require the administrative paperwork at the diocesan level.

So we really cannot say that this particular priest was not “by the book”.
 
Even if her pastor proceeded without proper authority regarding the lack of form cases, an annulment process would start at the beginning. If marriages #1 and #2 were determined now to be invalid due to lack of form, #3 would still have the “favor of law” while the first two did not.
 
1ke said:
The priest did things according to canon law.

There may be administrative processes in place in a diocese, and the priest should certainly follow administrative procedures. But the priest actually did do his due diligence as pertains to freedom to marry.

We do not know the particulars of why or where this investigation occurred as it did. It could have been somewhere that does not require the administrative paperwork at the diocesan level.

So we really cannot say that this particular priest was not “by the book”.
Click to expand...
That’s interesting.

I still think it’s a pretty big pastoral fail, even if by the book.
 
rjfr said:
Wondering what your thoughts are on this situation (trying to help a friend figure out whether to pursue an annulment).

Man and woman, both Catholic, marry in the Catholic church. The man has been married twice before–and both marriages civilly end with divorce. One marriage in the Lutheran church, the other justice of the peace. Neither annulled. Both of course are invalid due to lack of form.

Priest tells couple that man’s prior marriages “don’t matter” because they were invalid due to lack of form.

The marriage ends; years later, the woman is now seeking annulment. Looks like ligamen to me, with bad advice from the priest who presided over their marriage.

What do you think, wise ones?
Click to expand...
As 1ke said, it is neither ligamen nor necessarily bad advice. Depending on the procedure in their diocese, the priest may have completed the necessary paperwork for the lack-of-form cases prior to their marriage. The first two attempts at marriage were invalid on their faces, so the third marriage is the only one that needs to be investigated.
 
Xantippe said:
Third time usually isn’t the charm–at least not with marriage.
Click to expand...
Maybe not. But according to Catholic law the first two would not appear to be valid marriages (and thus no marriage at all). So from a Catholic POV it would seem his third marriage was his only true marriage.
 
Padres1969 said:
Maybe not. But according to Catholic law the first two would not appear to be valid marriages (and thus no marriage at all). So from a Catholic POV it would seem his third marriage was his only true marriage.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t bet the farm on the ability of a person with two failed attempts at civil marriages to follow that up with a successful Catholic marriage.
 
Xantippe said:
I wouldn’t bet the farm on the ability of a person with two failed attempts at civil marriages to follow that up with a successful Catholic marriage.
Click to expand...
Would it be the place of the pastor though to object to the true marriage when he doesn’t have any reason to do so?
 
Padres1969 said:
Would it be the place of the pastor though to object to the true marriage when he doesn’t have any reason to do so?
Click to expand...
Well, isn’t that the issue–whether the person is capable of marriage at all?

I’ve heard that on certain kinds of annulment papers, there are notes with suggestions or restrictions for future marriages. For instance, I saw a blogger say that her annulment papers come with a warning that she be very sure to get to know a prospective spouse very well before attempting marriage again.
 
Xantippe said:
Third time usually isn’t the charm–at least not with marriage.
Click to expand...
Ah.

But I think you are assuming that the pastor didn’t do proper premarital counseling nor look at past patterns and discuss the essential properties of marriage.

The only info the OP gave was that the pastor said the two prior marriages were not an impediment, which is true. We don’t know what else took place during premarital investigation and preparation.

We also don’t know why the marriage ended.
 
Thank you all for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I was hoping that a formal case could be avoided for this person, but sounds like that’s what the situation will need.

Some diocese apparently have a casual, priest-parish level way to “clear” invalid marriages while others require the full lack of form paperwork. Interesting how that is inconsistent.

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
rjfr said:
Thank you all for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I was hoping that a formal case could be avoided for this person, but sounds like that’s what the situation will need.

Some diocese apparently have a casual, priest-parish level way to “clear” invalid marriages while others require the full lack of form paperwork. Interesting how that is inconsistent.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Click to expand...
There is no such thing as “full lack of form paperwork”. Such a thing does not exist canonically.

What is required:

Can. 1066 Before a marriage is celebrated, it must be evident that nothing stands in the way of its valid and licit celebration.

Can. 1067 The conference of bishops is to establish norms about the examination of spouses and about the marriage banns or other opportune means to accomplish the investigations necessary before marriage. After these norms have been diligently observed, the pastor can proceed to assist at the marriage.

Nothing inconsistent at all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top