A three-part question about NFP

[RoseMary131]

Originally Posted by BioNerd
… but I won’t lie, some of the teachings (mainly contraception) just seem ridiculous to me. … I’m just trying to learn more about my faith but right now it doesn’t look very appealing to me…

Amen.

QuasiCatholic and BioNerd.

Are the TRUE Church teachings ridiculous - or could it be some people’s explanation and interpretation of the teaching seems ridiculous.

I love the Church. I love Church Teaching. I love learning about the Faith. I love sharing the faith with others.

I think NFP is a beautiful way of life and marriage. My introduction to NFP was through Couple to Couple League - through their classes and their magazine. ccli.org/

If I were at the parish this evening and these posts were the discussion, I would leave the discussion. Some posts are actually misguided.

To Quasi, I recommend actually enrolling in an NFP class with your dear fiance. Hopefully, you will have a wonderful teaching couple who has good practice not only in teaching how to use NFP, but in expressing what the Church teaches and the reasons.

See if your parish has an NFP teaching couple who would sit down with you to answer questions without actually enrolling in the class today.

Maybe one of the RCIA team would be willing to meet with you and help you to understand any questions on the Faith. The new RCIA class will proabably begin in your parish in mid- Aug or Sept. I highly recommend you take the RCIA class with your fiance. Going to RCIA does not mean you plan to join the Church at Easter. While many people begin RCIA with the intention of entering the Church at Easter - anyone who wants to learn about the faith are invited.

BioNerd - see if there is an Adult Religious Education class offered at your university at the Newman Center (Catholic Parish for the University). Your campus priest has a lot of experience in answering questions on the faith to university students. The students who attend Mass will be a mixed crowd - those like you who were drug to Mass by Mom and have been away from the Church - unless Mom’s on Campus, those who were never Catholic, those who were Catholics - left a bit - returned, and those who were always practicing Catholics.

To both Quasi and BioNerd, remember to always begin each study or inquiry of Faith with prayer. God can help your heart to understand something before you can express it very well.

May God bless and guide both of you and all those looking to learn about the Faith.

Peace.

 

[IBombAtomically]

If I were at the parish this evening and these posts were the discussion, I would leave the discussion. Some posts are actually misguided.

Please, I don’t mean to put you on the spot or in an awkward position, but for the benefit of everyone who is reading this thread, would you mind specifying what was incorrect or against Church teaching? I don’t want to stir things up with anyone, but in just glancing through the responses nothing has stood out to me. It would be helpful to clarify any misrepresentations of Church teaching, and I would like to be corrected if I’m passing on any false information. Thanks!

 

[Rico_S]

They WANT to avoid the consequences, but that is not the same as intending to avoid the consequences.

I lose you here. I am reminded of President Clinton, “It depends on what the definition of “is” is.” I think you are trying to make distinctions that either don’t exist or are irrelevant.

The goal in making love is clearly not to avoid having a baby, since that goal is obviously not served by making love.

In other words, no one ever attempts to avoid pregnancy by having sex. The very notion is inconceivable.

This is where I find discussing these things become tedious and fruitless. I have already addressed this–yes this is nonsensical. If the only goal is to avoid pregnancy then having sex will not serve that end. I get it. **But avoiding pregnancy is only 1/2 of the goal…you are conveniently leaving out the other half. The goal of couples practicing NFP to avoid is two part-- is to engage in the marital embrace while avoiding pregnancy. ** If the only goal was to avoid, then there would be no need to practice NFP b/c couples would just not have sex.

Let me put it to you this way. For the couple practicing NFP to avoid for serious health reasons…they avoid during fertile times b/c the goal is to not get pregnant, right? Obviously, if they don’t want to get pregnant they shouldn’t engage in the act, right? But then they decide to engage in sex when the wife is not fertile. According to your logic, their goal of not becoming pregnant must necessarily have changed since they are in fact having sex and in doing so are necessarily welcoming the consequence of that act. But I assure you, they goal of not getting pregnant has not changed, but yet they are engaging in sex…and the Church says this is ok!!! It is not blameworthy!!!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I lose you here. I am reminded of President Clinton, “It depends on what the definition of “is” is.” I think you are trying to make distinctions that either don’t exist or are irrelevant.

Fine distinctions matter in moral theology. There is a huge difference between a desire and an intention. I want to be a rock star, but I sure don’t intend to be a rock star!

Let me put it to you this way. For the couple practicing NFP to avoid for serious health reasons…they avoid during fertile times b/c the goal is to not get pregnant, right? Obviously, if they don’t want to get pregnant they shouldn’t engage in the act, right? But then they decide to engage in sex when the wife is not fertile. According to your logic, their goal of not becoming pregnant must necessarily have changed since they are in fact having sex and in doing so are necessarily welcoming the consequence of that act. But I assure you, they goal of not getting pregnant has not changed, but yet they are engaging in sex…and the Church says this is ok!!! It is not blameworthy!!!

I’m not particularly interested in belaboring the point. I don’t think it is possible for an action to have a goal of “not getting pregnant”, unless that action is believed to result in not getting pregnant. Taking a contraceptive pill is believed to result in not getting pregnant, and a woman takes the pill with that intent – but when a couple has sex using the pill, their intention in *that *action of having sex is not “not getting pregnant”. Even if they have severe reasons to avoid pregnancy.

I agree that the Church allows couples to avoid, for a whole variety of reasons, so I’m not sure why you’re so upset about that.

 

[BioNerd]

No, please don’t misunderstand - this doesn’t mean we have to keep on having children!!!

Re-read what the catechism says:

It should be a prayerful decision - asking God, “Am I making this decision selfishly?” Maybe not! Maybe 3 children is what you and your spouse have prayerfully decided to be “responsible parenthood”…

This is a very personal decision… some people have the capacity to handle more, others don’t - personalities and temperaments and situations are all unique between spouses, so it’s not up to anyone to tell YOU what should be right for YOU.

So then you’re telling me that if my husband and I prayerfully discern that we’re done having kids because we want our “perfect family of 2 kids, a big house, 2 cars and a boat” it would be ok, because that was what WE decided was our just reason? Yes?

 

[BioNerd]

No, please don’t misunderstand - this doesn’t mean we have to keep on having children!!!

Re-read what the catechism says:

It should be a prayerful decision - asking God, “Am I making this decision selfishly?” Maybe not! Maybe 3 children is what you and your spouse have prayerfully decided to be “responsible parenthood”…

This is a very personal decision… some people have the capacity to handle more, others don’t - personalities and temperaments and situations are all unique between spouses, so it’s not up to anyone to tell YOU what should be right for YOU.

So then you’re telling me that if my husband and I prayerfully discern that we’re done having kids because we want our “perfect family of 2 kids, a big house, 2 cars and a boat” it would be ok, because that was what WE decided was our just reason? Yes?

 

[thewanderer]

So then you’re telling me that if my husband and I prayerfully discern that we’re done having kids because we want our “perfect family of 2 kids, a big house, 2 cars and a boat” it would be ok, because that was what WE decided was our just reason? Yes?

So long as you are honestly trying to discern whether or not such is selfish, then, well, yes. If you were just using this as an “out” to get what you want, then no. The thing is that, as I said before, there is no official teaching as to what is and what is not a “just” reason. In the absence of official Church teaching we are left with our own individual reason and judgement. So long as you try to conform yourself with the spirit of the official teachings of the Church, and honestly seek out the truth in a case where the Church has no official teaching, then you will not sin in following out the course of action your reason leads you to, even if it turns out that your reasoning about it is incorrect. But, like I said, you can’t just be using this as an out or a loophole to try and justify an action which you do not really think is right.

 

[Em_in_FL]

BioNerd;10996276:

So then you’re telling me that if my husband and I prayerfully discern that we’re done having kids because we want our “perfect family of 2 kids, a big house, 2 cars and a boat” it would be ok, because that was what WE decided was our just reason? Yes?

So long as you are honestly trying to discern whether or not such is selfish, then, well, yes. If you were just using this as an “out” to get what you want, then no. The thing is that, as I said before, there is no official teaching as to what is and what is not a “just” reason. In the absence of official Church teaching we are left with our own individual reason and judgement. So long as you try to conform yourself with the spirit of the official teachings of the Church, and honestly seek out the truth in a case where the Church has no official teaching, then you will not sin in following out the course of action your reason leads you to, even if it turns out that your reasoning about it is incorrect. But, like I said, you can’t just be using this as an out or a loophole to try and justify an action which you do not really think is right.

 

[BioNerd]

So long as you are honestly trying to discern whether or not such is selfish, then, well, yes. If you were just using this as an “out” to get what you want, then no. The thing is that, as I said before, there is no official teaching as to what is and what is not a “just” reason. In the absence of official Church teaching we are left with our own individual reason and judgement. So long as you try to conform yourself with the spirit of the official teachings of the Church, and honestly seek out the truth in a case where the Church has no official teaching, then you will not sin in following out the course of action your reason leads you to, even if it turns out that your reasoning about it is incorrect. But, like I said, you can’t just be using this as an out or a loophole to try and justify an action which you do not really think is right.

So in then end “just and serious” is whatever the couple decides it to be, as long as they’re being honest with themselves about it. To be honest I think it’s a perfectly valid reason. Selfishness shouldn’t be measured based on how many kids you’re willing to pop out and how many luxuries you have, but rather everyday things that you’re willing to do for others out of the kindness of your heart. But thank you very much for clarifying! I still don’t agree with the whole “no contraception” thing, but I’m not looking to argue that here. I’ve done my reading with Humanae Vitae and Janet Smith ( and i think most of what she says is BS, sorry) but nothing yet…I’m just praying about it and hopefully it’ll happen one day. Thank you everyone!