A time machine back to the 1500's to talk to Martin Luther...,

[manualman]

I somewhat agree with Cat. I can’t comment on Asperger’s, but at the very least I suspect that Luther was tortured by a bad case of scrupulosity and pride. From what I’ve read of his works, it looks to me like he invented Sola Fide first as a novel solution to his scrupulosity (scruples are silenced if actions are irrelevant) and later developed Sola Fide in reaction to the “failure” of the Church to endorse Sola Fide as he described it.

It’s my opinion that error usually results from reasoning coming AFTER the conclusion was reached. And I think that is likely the case for Luther. And in all honesty, I can relate. I have to fight that tendency in myself.

 

[Jimmy_B]

why dont those three go today and talk to obama and point out his path of failure that he is on today?
and reason a new course?
that alone answers your question…

nobody really understands that what martin wanted, and what came to be, are not the same.
he, like obama are more so used by those that feed them, pointing out, man has a free choice, its not just God controled, you can make choices.

most of what the federal government does today, is a bad choice, but your not going to reason a change.

Get these three people together and reason why the US sends 3 billion a year to Israel, and they will come up with no reason or answer, but to maintain a hostile enviroment and keep getting people killed.
then figure out why the US wont send money its promised to haiti, and no reason will be, but neither will they change it.

Good point… you couild be right.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Change the question to what should these three wise people come to reason that the course is to unify the Church of Truth and the community christian churchs back together?

now your being realistic and a focus of logic, reasoning.

Actually, I was wondering now, based on some of the responses here, if these three men met with Luther at the right point in time, with a lap top and enough information, could they have changed his views and stopped the split in the first place? For instance, what if they met him at the age of 17, 18, 19 or 20 years old?
Would that have made a difference?

 

[benjohnson]

I would say “yes.”

Though, in my opinion, you’d probably have an easier time convincing Martin Luther of what Catholic teaching is, then you’d have of teaching Pope Leo X.

 

[triumphguy]

If a Catholic scholar, a skilled Catholic apologist and a Religious historian got into a time machine with a lap top computer and traveled back to the 1500’s to talk to Martin Luther, could they have prevented the Protestant splint from Catholicism?

Just take one of those vile baptist “preachers” you find on YouTube castigating the Church and a translator, and that would convince Luther not to split!

 

[benjohnson]

Just take one of those vile baptist “preachers” you find on YouTube castigating the Church and a translator, and that would convince Luther not to split!

You’d have better luck finding an authority denying pseudo-Lutheran pastor, Luther would have recognized that he had nothing to do with the Baptists

I can see from a Catholic perspective, it looks like Luther was the root of all this ‘protestant’ splitting - but from a Lutheran standpoint we can really only answer for our own sins.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I say no. The time was right for a split from the Catholic Church. The Church and the Pope were wielding too much worldly power at that time, and people were tired of it, particularily in the Northern part of Europe. I say the split would have eventually happened with or without Luther. What with the printing press and Bibles being available in peoples’ own language (not just Latin), the new merchant class, and the fact that there were many wealthy people who did not want to be subjected to Papal rule, I think it was inevitable that the split occured in the 1500s.

 

[Pedro_1987]

Well then…What if God permitted a Catholic scholar, a skilled Catholic apologist and a religious historian to get into a time machine with a lap top computer, defy physics and travel back to the 1500’s to talk to Martin Luther, could the Protestant split from Catholicism have been prevented?

What good would a lap top do? It’s not like the internet was around in the 1500s.

 

[rfournier103]

If a Catholic scholar, a skilled Catholic apologist and a Religious historian got into a time machine with a lap top computer and traveled back to the 1500’s to talk to Martin Luther, could they have prevented the Protestant splint from Catholicism?

I don’t think so. I don’t know a whole lot about this subject, but I think it would be a tough sell. Maybe; but not likely.

They should probably visit the Pope at that time, too.

I also think there’s plenty of blame to go around, as the split did not happen in a vacuum. Something triggered it. Maybe the split could have been prevented if both sides sat down and discussed their grievances… However, I don’t think Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura would have allowed for a resolution .

 

[vames]

I would say “yes.”

Though, in my opinion, you’d probably have an easier time convincing Martin Luther of what Catholic teaching is, then you’d have of teaching Pope Leo X.

Pope Leo X probably would find some consolation in finding out about the existence of the sedevacantists of today

 

[JonNC]

May be so, if that scholar was able to convince that, catholics also believe in salvation by grace alone and not by regular church attendance or doing good works.
Martin Luther wouldn’t have compromised on Sola Scriptures. He wouldn’t have accepted any other writings equal to/comparable to scripture.

Do you have evidence for this?

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

Do you have evidence for this?

Jon

Originally Posted by VoiceOfBible
May be so, if that scholar was able to convince that, catholics also believe in salvation by grace alone and not by regular church attendance or doing good works.
Martin Luther wouldn’t have compromised on Sola Scriptures. He wouldn’t have accepted any other writings equal to/comparable to scripture.

Why can’t I understand this statement? I’m confused. What other writings? Who is accepting writings comparable to scripture?

 

[Jimmy_B]

What good would a lap top do? It’s not like the internet was around in the 1500s.

You don’t need the internet to use a lap top computer, if you’re going to take a trip into the past in a time machine… I would bring a lot of extra batteries though.

 

[JonNC]

Why can’t I understand this statement? I’m confused. What other writings? Who is accepting writings comparable to scripture?

He’s talking, I am guesising, about councils, and writings of the popes. It was these things that Luther said often contradicted each other, which led him to believe that we should turn to scripture.

My question about evidence has to do with the premise, that if Luther could have been convinced, the Reformation would have ended quickly. I would contend that if Pope Benedict XVI were to take a laptop, he would be a much better advocate, obviously, the Pope Leo X.

Jon

 

[pnewton]

I would say the answer is “yes”. I believe in free will and therefore a change in information may have changed what Martin Luther does. (mixed tense intentional)

 

[PJM]

=VoiceOfBible;10223432]May be so, if that scholar was able to convince that, catholics also believe in salvation by grace alone and not by regular church attendance or doing good works.
Martin Luther wouldn’t have compromised on Sola Scriptures. He wouldn’t have accepted any other writings equal to/comparable to scripture.

So friend; you GAVE UP Jesus Christ HIMSELF IN PERSON in the Eucharist! Because Martin can’t provide for this reality? …SHOCKING!

And how are your sins going to be forgiven OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION:shrug:

Church attendance is a COMMANDMENT my friend. Your issues are with GOD, not His CC. **Duet. 5: 15 **“Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day”.

**Mt. 7: 21 "**Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

There is Only One God; who can have ONLY His One Faith and he didn’t wait for Martin Luther to make it evident:thumbsup:

I’ll pray for you.
Pat / PJM

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Tha answer has to be NO. Because I beleaive that the three jentlemen in the time machine would not have been able to quell the rising tide of nationalism which was a huge driving force behind the reformation.

 

[VoiceOfBible]

Duet. 5: 15

“Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day”.

Pat / PJM

Do you mean New Testament Sunday worship is replacement of Old Testament Saturday Sabbath?
Then not only we should meet for the mass, but should not do any of our secular work that day? No?

 

[Jimmy_B]

He’s talking, I am guesising, about councils, and writings of the popes. It was these things that Luther said often contradicted each other, which led him to believe that we should turn to scripture.

My question about evidence has to do with the premise, that if Luther could have been convinced, the Reformation would have ended quickly. I would contend that if Pope Benedict XVI were to take a laptop, he would be a much better advocate, obviously, the Pope Leo X.

Jon

John Paul II would have been great too…

 

[JonNC]

John Paul II would have been great too…

Indeed! What a great witness for Christ! I mentioned Pope Benedict because, while Pope John Paul II seemed focused more on Orthodoxy, Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict knows and understands Luther and Lutheranism probably better than any pope since the Reformation.
That, at least, is my humble opinion.

Jon