A time machine back to the 1500's to talk to Martin Luther...,

[TertiumQuid]

You might want to point that out on your blog. Since you only seem to emphasize the negatives about this thread in your post there.

Done. This is what I posted:

Addendum 1/16/13
The Catholic Answers discussion continues. One of the participants responded to a comment I left by stating: “Not every Catholic on this thread was disecting Luther’s mental or spiritual state. There are many Catholics on this forum, myself included, who refuted that arguement” source].

That’s true. Not every participant on the Catholic Answers forums goes after Luther. There are some folks who, though they disagree with Protestant principles, are sober-minded in their critiques of that which they oppose. This is one of the problems inherent in discussion boards: the nuts outweigh the fruit, so to speak, even in the discussion in question. Everyone loves to post their opinions, but very few of those opinions actually are informed. This isn’t simply a problem on the Catholic Answers forums, you can find the same sort of thing on Protestant forums (like the CARM boards).

JS

 

[TimeEntrance]

I’ve also read the book, Triumph, by Crocker, which is a Catholic-written Church history, and again, I found no conflict between the information in Shelley’s book and the Catholic history account.

That’s the book I got my information about Martin Luther from.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Not to derail the thread, but we view ourselves as a valid continuation of the western church. A proper Lutheran church has 2000 years of history, not 500.

Except for implying that we follow Luther and not God, nothing you said upsets me in the slightest - as one of my Catholic friends kindly said after our service: “This is the real deal, isn’t it?”

I think so myself, otherwise I would leave.

So would a practicing Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox Jew, Hindu, Voodoo priest, Muslim, and atheist.

I’m not a practicing Catholic. Although, it strikes me that at the root of the early Protestant Reformation and the subsequent and continuing reformations within Protestantism, is a lack of faith.

The Catholic claim about it’s Pope and what “Church” is (existing in heaven, purgatory, and on earth all at the same time) might seem absurd and a lack of faith in the what the Catholic belief says about its heirachy very rational. But the whole Christian story is rather absurd. The atheists are very honest about this. So are Muslims. The Protestants that know the history of the Church (many lay Protestants don’t)? I would say, less so. And I don’t say that as an attack on you or other faithful Protestants knowledgeable about the Early Church. I don’t think many of us are aware of why we might believe X, Y, Z.

I’m also not saying God can not work through Protestant churches or individual Protestants. I very much believe Protestants receive gifts from the Holy Spirit.

I think I might have mentioned one side (black side) of my family is Protestant. One or two are serious about their faith in God and Christ too.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Actually, I’m not a Lutheran, and would disagree with Martin Luther on a variety of issues. I began studying Luther because of discussions like this. I started reading all sorts of negative stuff posted by Roman Catholics about Luther and simply decided to look up the charges as I came across them. I was quite surprised at what I found. While Luther certainly wasn’t perfect, and while he certainly made mistakes (and even at times made those mistakes sinfully), he certainly wasn’t like how he’s been described in this very discussion. One of Luther’s earliest Roman Catholic opponents felt Luther was a child of the devil, the fruit of a union between Satan and Luther’s mother (who later regretted not having murdered him in the cradle). What I’ve read here is simply a footnote to this early opponent of Luther’s, perhaps not always as harsh, but still in the same ballpark.

That being said, I would argue this very discussion demonstrates that it’s quite a large number of Roman Catholics here that have* an emotional reaction* to Luther rather than the few Protestants that are “so emotionally connected to Luther.” Quite frankly, for me, I worship no man, so where Luther was wrong, he was wrong. On the other hand I do have the desire to see the study of any person in church history as an exercise in the love of God and neighbor. How do we love our neighbor in the study of church history? There probably are many ways, but the one that applies here is in our words. If we bear false witness against our neighbor, we are not loving him.

JS

I should probably point out that my opinions of Luther weren’t motivated by him being a Protestant Father. While technically it is possible to be Catholic and hate Protestants or the Fathers of Protestantism while being perfectly happy Voodoo priests, Muslims, vagabonds, or “gypsies,” I think my fondness of a former professor of mine that is a Voodoo priest (and very anti-Christian and even more anti-Muslim) hopefully might shine light on me not having hate for those Protestant peoples.

My harsh comments on Martin Luther was do to what I read about him in that book (but as you’ve said… the info might be both prejudicial and wrong).

Or put it this way… I like to say the prophet Mohammad was “La Cosa Nostra” and a “man’s man” because he had many wives and hijacked caravans (like mobsters have hijacked trucks). You think I’m being unfair to Mohammad and blinded by Catholicism by stating that?

There is a reason it is better to slaughter a million than one. The former can make you a hero and the latter often makes you a criminal open to public ridicule.

What I’m saying is I don’t think the social standing and fame of Martin Luther and Mohammad means I must–or other people in the world must–speak only glowingly of them else we offend their admirers.

Usually, people seem to think no people on earth would fall “religious” people that are not saints. But seeing some of these suicide cults and other things I very much doubt that. It would however be true that my Catholic rearing and sympathies disallow me from perceiving either Martin Luther or Mohammad as saints. Martin Luther from a Catholic conception of the Church and virtue broke his vows and led others astray and lacked the humility to be led by the leaders of the Church.

Now, I’m sure many in the Catholic hierarchy and in Catholic academia will speak of Martin Luther in more diplomatic terms. I’m sure some might even suggest he should be regarded as a saint and hero (while regarding me as less than human). But that’s them and not me. There are some virtues in gang bangers and mafia members (and U.S. prison gangs like the Aryn Brotherhood) that the “good” people in Catholicism and Protestantism won’t be able to see nor comprehend. While I’m not a gang member and could never be inducted into the mafia, hopefully I have a little of some of those small virtues among some gang bangers and mobsters.

If my critiques of Luther and Mohammad might strike the “Christian” as too harsh and wrong it’s more motivated in tone by gang-bangers and American mafia than contemporary Jesuits or Catholicism. Just like this statement is: the Virgin Mary is my Queen.

Many Catholics will be more “diplomatic” and says many Catholics promote the Mary to much. That’s them. That’s not me.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy,

It seems to me that Lutheranism – or any of the early church bodies that came out of the Reformation – didn’t just spring up out of nowhere. That 1500 years of church history that preceded the reformation is part of their history, the foundation of their existence. There would be no Lutheran church if the Catholic Church had not existed. Lutherans would not confess the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds if they had not come into use during those 1500 years. The apostles and the early church fathers are parts of our history. Without them we would not exist. Holy Scripture is a part of our history – and the scriptures predate the Reformation by centuries.

In summary, the faith that I have been given is not a product of Luther. It is not captive to teachings that are less than 500 years old. To be sure, Luther’s interpretations of Holy Scripture influence my beliefs but so do the teachings of many others who preceded him.

How can any Protestant denomination, on one hand ignore Christian traditions (Christian history), especially if it is “Catholic history” and then pick and choose the history that, taken out of context fits their non-Catholic Protestant Christian model? My experience has been that many Protestant denominations only espouse the Catholic history that is “bad” and a lot of that is incorrect. If one is being honest, then they can’t have it both ways. Am I wrong?
Your Thoughts.

 

[Cat]

How can any Protestant denomination, on one hand ignore Christian traditions (Christian history), especially if it is “Catholic history” and then pick and choose the history that, taken out of context fits their non-Catholic Protestant Christian model? My experience has been that many Protestant denominations only espouse the Catholic history that is “bad” and a lot of that is incorrect. If one is being honest, then they can’t have it both ways. Am I wrong?
Your Thoughts.

I was evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life before converting to Catholicism.

In the past, it was difficult for the lay Protestant to know that any history of the church existed other than the history that they were taught by their beloved and respected pastors. The few Protestant churches that had libraries usually stocked these libraries with Protestant books, and the lay people would have no way of knowing that these did not contain the whole truth.

Even for the evangelical Protestant pastors, it was difficult to know the “true” history of the church. They were limited to the volumes in their college/seminary library, and they, too, respected their professors and pastors and assumed that these esteemed and learned men were teaching them the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

For many college students, it’s difficult enough to find the time to study all the assigned materials, let alone find a way to get to the closest Catholic seminary and search through their library for “alternative” history books. And why would a Protestant seminary student do this? They had no way of knowing that what they were being taught wasn’t the whole truth.

I know a lot of Catholics scoff at “invincible ignorance,” but it’s absolutely true. How can you search for truth if you aren’t aware that any truth exists other than what you have always been taught?!

In fact, in a lot of evangelical Protestant churches, there is little to no interest in church history because many Protestants believe we have to leave the past behind and live totally in the present and future. They don’t see a use for church history, just as many Americans see little use for world and U.S. history. They would rather read books about improving their marriage, raising their children, evangelizing their world, drawing nearer to God, and understanding the Bible. Evangelical Protestants read a LOT more than Catholics read, but they don’t generally read history. I was a rare exception reading Bruce Shelley’s Church History in Plain Language, a book that was recommended to me by a Protestant layperson. I was lucky that it was a very well-written and accurate history. But I never knew anyone else in the evangelical churches who read any church history, other than the pastors.

I loved and trusted my pastors and teachers in my childhood and even my adult churches so much that I believed everything they said. These people never did or said anything to make me doubt them. They lived exemplary lives of sacrifice and good works, and I wanted to be like them.

It was only when my husband and I were kicked out of our evangelical Protestant church that the thought even came into my mind that I didn’t know the “whole truth” about God. I realized that these men had betrayed me and used the Bible to justify capricious cruelty.

And that’s when my husband and I started investigating Catholicism seriously. Only when what had believed all our lives was torn away from us and exposed as “false” could we look for the truth.

Other Protestants become disillusioned or disgusted with the pastors and churches, too. But most Protestants remain very happily involved with their churches and have no idea that the version of history that they know is incorrect. And that’s my answer to your question–they don’t know that there is anything else.

And sadly–many evangelical Protestants know a lot of Catholics who don’t seem to them to be very committed to Jesus Christ or involved in any ministries, worship, Bible study, etc. A lot of evangelical Protestants see no difference between Catholics and those who do not believe in Jesus, and so would question whether Catholics are even Christians. This is tough for me to say, but it’s the truth, and Catholics really need to hear this and do something about it if they want to see evangelical Protestants get interested in the Catholic Church. We Catholics have to give people reasons to investigate Catholicism. Jesus has given this task to us, and we should obey His Great Commission.

HOWEVER…all that being said, we can rejoice that the internet has changed everything. This tool gives Protestants the opportunity to study the early Church fathers’ writings without having to make a trek to a college library and lug home huge tomes! The internet has given rise to forums like this, where Protestants can come and ask questions and read good articles about the Catholic Church, and learn the TRUE history of Christianity.

I think that a lot more Protestants will be coming home to the Catholic Church as a result of the internet! It has certainly helped me.

I hope this post is useful and helpful, even if it is uncomfortable.

 

[gcnuss]

How can any Protestant denomination, on one hand ignore Christian traditions (Christian history), especially if it is “Catholic history” and then pick and choose the history that, taken out of context fits their non-Catholic Protestant Christian model? My experience has been that many Protestant denominations only espouse the Catholic history that is “bad” and a lot of that is incorrect. If one is being honest, then they can’t have it both ways. Am I wrong?
Your Thoughts.

I prefer to focus on the Catholic history that is “good,” i.e., that which points to Christ. At the same time, I don’t believe that the Catholic Church has a monopoly on that which is good. As a Lutheran, I am convinced that we share in all the blessings that our Lord intends for those who believe in him.

 

[benjohnson]

I prefer to focus on the Catholic history that is “good,” i.e., that which points to Christ.

Paster, thank you for the reminder.

I think one of the traps that the devil has for me is to wrap myself up in study of the church, instead of worshiping Christ.

 

[Jimmy_B]

With respect, and in my opinion, this is a silly as saying that “Catholics follow the Joseph Ratzinger.” I hope by putting it in those terms how you can see that what you are telling me doesn’t even bother me.

Given that I respect you, I don’t want your words to be ineffective in persuading me, so I would say that you try another way to convince me of my Chruch’s error.

I don’t expect, nor ask, that you believe what I say about us following God - but I am explaining how a proper Lutheran is immune to the idea that we have to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome in order to have what we feel is most important, namely salivation given to us by Christ crucified.

To respond to your second post, it doesn’t bother me not that the corporate body of my church is only a few tens of years old - our traditions and teaching are valid and continuous form the time of Christ. I fully expect that in a few hundred years, not even this country will be here. My children may be speaking a different language. But the one holy, catholic and apostolic church will still be here, of which I claim to be a part of.

Of course, If I didn’t believe this, I would be Catholic, or perhaps Anglican or Orthodox.

Thank you Sir, I understand and I appreciate that but the pope is not the founder of Catholicism. He falls under apostolic succession and that’s how the Church derives its authority. Does that make sense? From Jesus (founder of Catholicism) to St. Peter (the first pope) and from St. Peter to the following pope and so on, for 2000 years in an unbroken chain of apostolic succession. When a Catholic is confirmed, for instance… and the Bishop makes the sign of the cross on your forehead, the Holy Spirit has been passed down through popes, bishops and priests in an unbroken chain, all the way back to Jesus. It would be like someone shaking hands with George Washington and then that person shakes hands with the next person and so on, in an unbroken chain, all the way down to you… minus the actual sacrament and minus the Holy Spirit but you see what I mean, right? When you shake a Catholic priest’s hand, he has had contact with the bishop, who has had contact with the pope, who has had contact the bishops and pope before him and so, all the way back to Jesus. Forgive me for the terrible analogies. Maybe a more gifted Catholic here at CAF could use a better analogy but you see my point, right? .

 

[benjohnson]

Jimmy:

Thank you Sir, I understand and I appreciate that but the pope is not the founder of Catholicism.

But for us Martin Luther is not the founder of the Evangelische Kirche. Sure, as a man, Luther was fundamental in the historical context of the split and continuation of our churches from the churches that remained in communion with Pope Leo X. But A Lutheran should tell you that Christ was the true founder of our church if he understands the question properly.

Where you see us splitting from the Catholic church, we see ourselves as a continuation of those bishops and churches that no longer could remain in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

When you shake a Catholic priest’s hand, he has had contact with the bishop, who has had contact with the pope, who has had contact the bishops and pope before him and so, all the way back to Jesus.

I see you point, and I wish American Lutherans would regain the traditional understanding of Apostolic Succession.

 

[2015huntmj]

Just tell him that there are 35,000 protestant divisions. That might change his mind.

 

[Jimmy_B]

But for us Martin Luther is not the founder of the Evangelische Kirche. Sure, as a man, Luther was fundamental in the historical context of the split and continuation of our churches from the churches that remained in communion with Pope Leo X. But A Lutheran should tell you that Christ was the true founder of our church if he understands the question properly.

Where you see us splitting from the Catholic church, we see ourselves as a continuation of those bishops and churches that no longer could remain in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I see you point, and I wish American Lutherans would regain the traditional understanding of Apostolic Succession.

I see you point, and I wish American Lutherans would regain the traditional understanding of Apostolic Succession

Well, God willing maybe one day… It would be nice if there was only one Church.

 

[benjohnson]

Well, God willing maybe one day… It would be nice if there was only one Church.

May I join you in this desire from the heart, in fulfillment of God’s desire for all of us.

 

[SteveVH]

Where you see us splitting from the Catholic church, we see ourselves as a continuation of those bishops and churches that no longer could remain in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Ben, I am asking this question out of ignorance and mean no offense. Could you please tell me how apostolic succession was transmitted to the Lutheran Church? And what do you mean by “a continuation of those bishops and churches that no longer could remain in communion with the Bishop of Rome”? Those bishops that no longer could remain in union with the Bishop of Rome would have to have either been the Eastern Orthodox or some heretical bishop. Of which bishops does the Lutheran Church claim to be a continuation?

Thanks.

 

[benjohnson]

Ben, I am asking this question out of ignorance and mean no offense. Could you please tell me how apostolic succession was transmitted to the Lutheran Church?

Thanks.

No offense at all!

As I understand it, when the Lutheran churches in Northern Europe - especially near the Baltic Sea, stopped their communion with Rome, several bishops went with them. Several European synods claim apostolic succession because of that.

American Lutherans were generally poor immigrants, so that explains the historic lack of cathedrals and bishops. Some American synods are attempting to regain Apostolic Succession though mainly Anglican and Old Catholic lines - but to be frank, there is a risk of going through the motions of regaining Apostolic Succession without doing the hard world of putting into place church governance to ensure orthodoxy.

 

[namvietnv002]

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[TimeEntrance]

And sadly–many evangelical Protestants know a lot of Catholics who don’t seem to them to be very committed to Jesus Christ or involved in any ministries, worship, Bible study, etc. A lot of evangelical Protestants see no difference between Catholics and those who do not believe in Jesus, and so would question whether Catholics are even Christians. This is tough for me to say, but it’s the truth, and Catholics really need to hear this and do something about it if they want to see evangelical Protestants get interested in the Catholic Church. We Catholics have to give people reasons to investigate Catholicism. Jesus has given this task to us, and we should obey His Great Commission.

By “His Great Commission” you are referring to pagans, Jews, atheists and lay Catholic baptizing people “In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”?

A priest told me regarding my unbaptized nephews that really it should be their parents to bring them in to be baptized and in general it’s a priest that performs that. As opposed to me covertly baptizing them myself.

At the time of the birth of Christianity–descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles–there were only relatively a handful of Christians in the world. No major media and rapid technological systems of communication.

When a Christian told someone of “Jesus” they were often hearing about Jesus for the first time.

Okay… 2013 people know what cars are even if they ride horses or walk and just about every pagan baby on earth has been inundated with images of Jesus and heard people speak about Jesus and Christianity.

A friar once asked me the question, “Is it important we [the Catholic Church] have huge numbers?” Meaning… he was challenging my perception that numbers were of the primary importance.

Jesus was more harsh than me regarding not wasting my time trying get into some contest of debating to convince Protestant, Mormon, or atheist about Him or the Catholic Church.

heartlight.org/wjd/luke/0531-wjd.html

Shake the Dust from Your Feet - Luke 9:3-5

He said to the apostles, “When you travel, don’t take a walking stick. Also, don’t carry a bag, food, or money. Take for your trip only the clothes you are wearing. When you go into a house, stay there until it is time to leave. If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them.”

You also have an assumption of what those “who do not believe in Jesus” are in spirit and character. But maybe that in part stems from you long years of indoctrination into the conception of the invisible church.

There are plenty of agnostics, Muslims, Jews and others I admire. Even a few atheists. But that’s me. What I admire in one or more persons another person might not admire.

That said… a lot of Catholics certainly are far from being living saints or what Protestants might term “Christians” within the invisible Church.

But I’d prefer Catholicism to reflect more of Jews and orthodox Muslims today in the U.S.–and that means no proselytizing and annoying strangers on the street (some of which are probably Christians) and on college campuses. If some woman is sleeping with 2 men that is none of my business. Sorry, it isn’t.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I can’t believe the poll, to this point shows that 57% believe that it wouldn’t have changed Martin Luther’s decision to break from Catholicism and only 17% believe that it would. I find that someone confusing and disappointing… Maybe I’ve been reading more convincing literature over the years that supports Catholicism.
Maybe I should suggest a reading list here. Any suggestions?

Your thoughts?

 

[Rence]

If a Catholic scholar, a skilled Catholic apologist and a Religious historian got into a time machine with a lap top computer and traveled back to the 1500’s to talk to Martin Luther, could they have prevented the Protestant splint from Catholicism?

Not a chance…if they are honest about Protestants thriving in today’s society, free of persecution and with freedom of religion.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Not a chance…if they are honest about Protestants thriving in today’s society, free of persecution and with freedom of religion.

That may be the case today but many lived under the tyranny of England’s, King Henry XIII and other rulers in those day. Even today and in recent years, many lived and are still living under dictators, fascist’s and communist regimes, and that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church… Right?