A "traditional" catholic told me that the Baltimore Catechism differs from the Catechism of PJPII

[KS_Housewife]

… since the school’s religion texts were empty of any specific doctrinal content. They basically taught Jesus is our friend, everyone else is our friend too, I am my own friend so I need to feel good about myself, pollution is not my friend, other religions ARE my friend, rainbows, butterflies, la la la, etc, using lot and lots and LOTS of words to say nothing but ambiguity.

The value of the Baltimore Catechism is that it tells you, in a very few words, the gist of Christian belief on a topic. .

Those must have been the other books we purchased at the Catholic bookstore to try with out kids, and you have both described them pretty accurately and articulated why we put them aside. The Baltimore Catechism is very good to use at home to explain to your kids concrete doctrine in a very concise manner. Plus, the pictures stay embedded in the mind. I will never forget God The Father, peering longingly and sadly across the gates of heaven— WHICH WERE CLOSED! Due to SIN. Until Jesus died and rose again, at which points the gates opened!

 

[TMC]

Has the Baltimore Catechism been updated in the last 50 years? If not, aren’t there some areas that may differ from current Church teaching on things like ecumenism, EENS, and so forth? Or does the Baltimore Catechism not get into those topics - I don’t remember.

 

[DebChris]

Has the Baltimore Catechism been updated in the last 50 years? If not, aren’t there some areas that may differ from current Church teaching on things like ecumenism, EENS, and so forth? Or does the Baltimore Catechism not get into those topics - I don’t remember.

I don’t think the Baltimore Catechism worries about those things. If you pick up the “New Baltimore Catechism,” what you will find is basically the same Baltimore Catechism that each of us is familiar with. The difference is that the questions will be tied to the CCC.
Same questions. Same answers. Continuing doctrine.

 

[commenter]

Has the Baltimore Catechism been updated in the last 50 years? If not, aren’t there some areas that may differ from current Church teaching on things like ecumenism, EENS, and so forth? Or does the Baltimore Catechism not get into those topics - I don’t remember.

The Baltimore Catechism provides the basic foundation of Catholic belief. It’s a syllabus, not a textbook. Actually the world and the Church in America changed a lot not just in the last 50 years, but in the decades before that since the Catechism was published.

EENS - “Outside the Church there is no salvation” - was addressed in brief in the Catechism. Of course the answer is incomplete (like all the answers! remember it’s an outline), but even now, that answer is not wrong. The doctrinal framework of the Baltimore is still valid, valuable for any Catholic wishing to discuss Catholicism in an ecumenical setting, and also valuable for a Protestant wishing a brief outline of Catholic belief. The Catechism is solid food. There is something there, you can build on it, after reading it one can accurately embrace Catholicism, or you can accurately reject Catholicism after reading it. With the Baltimore, you know what you’re embracing, and you know what you’re rejecting. For teaching religion, it should be supplemented by other explanation to personalize it to these particular students, in 2014.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is consistent with the Baltimore, but far more detailed, designed for different purposes. The Baltimore is useful, but the CCC is essential.

 

[Genesis315]

Has the Baltimore Catechism been updated in the last 50 years? If not, aren’t there some areas that may differ from current Church teaching on things like ecumenism, EENS, and so forth? Or does the Baltimore Catechism not get into those topics - I don’t remember.

It doesn’t differ. My old priest was fond of telling us how he always kept a Baltimore Catechism on his desk, and when someone once claimed the Church had changed its doctrine since then on various topics, he opened it up and showed that it didn’t.

It has a picture of the Church as the ark, but also has those outside the ark, but holding on to ropes connected to the ark being saved. They are those who can be saved “outside” the Church. It also discusses this in words, but the image is memorable.

“Ecumenism” just refers in general to the goal and means to be used to reunite separated Christian communities with the one Church (strictly speaking, it doesn’t refer to reuniting individuals, but communities). The word may not be used, but the theme that all are called to the unity of the Catholic Church and the Church should work to gather them all together is certainly conveyed by the Baltimore Catechism.

 

[TimothyH]

He also mentioned that the new Catechism offers up a new theology. I’m guessing he alluded to certain new theology introduced during Vatican II which were incorporated into the new catechism.

Question: does JPII’s Catechism super cede the Baltimore version? Should I even read the latter?

There are three different Baltimore Catechisms. They differ from each other and were all written for children.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church from 1992 was written for Bishops. The intended audience was completely different.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

There are three different Baltimore Catechisms. They differ from each other and were all written for children.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church from 1992 was written for Bishops. The intended audience was completely different.

-Tim-

There’s supposedly a Baltimore Catechism 4 which is an explanation of the Baltimore Catechism - intended for catechists and teachers.

cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bindex.htm

 

[Corki]

There’s supposedly a Baltimore Catechism 4 which is an explanation of the Baltimore Catechism - intended for catechists and teachers.

cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bindex.htm

Yes, it’s a total of five. One through four with progressively more detail on the same basic key elements of the faith and a level “0” also called the First Communion Catechism.

 

[DebChris]

It doesn’t differ. My old priest was fond of telling us how he always kept a Baltimore Catechism on his desk, and when someone once claimed the Church had changed its doctrine since then on various topics, he opened it up and showed that it didn’t.

It has a picture of the Church as the ark, but also has those outside the ark, but holding on to ropes connected to the ark being saved. They are those who can be saved “outside” the Church. It also discusses this in words, but the image is memorable.

“Ecumenism” just refers in general to the goal and means to be used to reunite separated Christian communities with the one Church (strictly speaking, it doesn’t refer to reuniting individuals, but communities). The word may not be used, but the theme that all are called to the unity of the Catholic Church and the Church should work to gather them all together is certainly conveyed by the Baltimore Catechism.

There are three different Baltimore Catechisms. They differ from each other and were all written for children.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church from 1992 was written for Bishops. The intended audience was completely different.

-Tim-

I’m glad that you mention the different levels of the Baltimore Catechism. Since I only had the Baltimore Catechism through Grade 3 catechism, I was only exposed to Level 1. My older siblings on the other hand would have gone through Level 3 before joining CYO in High School.

 

[commenter]

There are three different Baltimore Catechisms. They differ from each other and were all written for children.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church from 1992 was written for Bishops. The intended audience was completely different.

-Tim-

From the US Bishops’ website: (bolding added) "For whom is the (CCC) Catechism intended?
The Catechism is intended, first of all, for bishops as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. They have the first responsibility in catechesis. Through the bishops, the Catechism is addressed to editors of catechisms, priests, catechists and all others responsible for catechesis. It will also be useful reading for all the faithful.

While the Catechism is not intended for direct use by young people or children, Pope John Paul II said that the Catechism “is offered to all the faithful who want to understand better the inexhaustible riches of salvation.” end quote

I believe the CCC is appropriate for some high school, and certainly any college students or RCIA.
While it may have been offered “first” to bishops as the most important readers, it was expected that the great majority of readers would be laypeople, and not just educators. That needs to be emphasized, because the CCC is restricted, even discouraged in many dioceses, schools and parishes. This was never intended.

I suspect if you look into the history of the Baltimore catechism, it too may well have been originally addressed “first of all” for the bishops. I’m sure it was used also for adults as well as children in many cases in the early years.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

There are three different Baltimore Catechisms. They differ from each other and were all written for children.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church from 1992 was written for Bishops. The intended audience was completely different.

-Tim-

Yes, and there is also Youcat. The CCC with cartoons for teens.

Where does that fit in in the Catechism spectrum?

 

[TimothyH]

From the US Bishops’ website: (bolding added) "For whom is the (CCC) Catechism intended?
The Catechism is intended, first of all, for bishops as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. They have the first responsibility in catechesis. Through the bishops, the Catechism is addressed to editors of catechisms, priests, catechists and all others responsible for catechesis. It will also be useful reading for all the faithful.

While the Catechism is not intended for direct use by young people or children, Pope John Paul II said that the Catechism “is offered to all the faithful who want to understand better the inexhaustible riches of salvation.” end quote

I believe the CCC is appropriate for some high school, and certainly any college students or RCIA.
While it may have been offered “first” to bishops as the most important readers, it was expected that the great majority of readers would be laypeople, and not just educators. That needs to be emphasized, because the CCC is restricted, even discouraged in many dioceses, schools and parishes. This was never intended.

I suspect if you look into the history of the Baltimore catechism, it too may well have been originally addressed “first of all” for the bishops. I’m sure it was used also for adults as well as children in many cases in the early years.

No, the Baltimore Catechism was not written for Bishops! It was written for little kids to learn the basics of the faith.

The 1992 Catechism presupposes that the reader has access to all of the works in the footnotes - an entire library of works - which at the time was not as readily available as it is today over the internet.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Yes, and there is also Youcat. The CCC with cartoons for teens.

Where does that fit in in the Catechism spectrum?

My teenage daughter complained all through Catechesis and confirmation prep that they treated her like she was an idiot. I think most teens would tell you that Youcat fits right about there…

There is another thread about good Bible’s for teens and I asked why teens needed a special Bible. My other daughter was using an Ignatius Study Bible when she was eight years old.

I don’t know why we need to dumb things down in the Internet age when kids have access to the works of the Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, commentaries, interlinear Bibles and such things with the click of a mouse.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

My teenage daughter complained all through Catechesis and confirmation prep that they treated her like she was an idiot. I think most teens would tell you that Youcat fits right about there…

There is another thread about good Bible’s for teens and I asked why teens needed a special Bible. My other daughter was using an Ignatius Study Bible when she was eight years old.

I don’t know why we need to dumb things down in the Internet age when kids have access to the works of the Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, commentaries, interlinear Bibles and such things with the click of a mouse.

-Tim-

As if putting things into vernacular weren’t intelligence-insulting enough…

 

[TimothyH]

As if putting things into vernacular weren’t intelligence-insulting enough…

Yeah, cause the Baltimore Catechism was in Latin.

-Tim-

 

[O_Sapientia]

He also mentioned that the new Catechism offers up a new theology. I’m guessing he alluded to certain new theology introduced during Vatican II which were incorporated into the new catechism.

Question: does JPII’s Catechism super cede the Baltimore version? Should I even read the latter?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a universal Catechism issued by Rome. The Baltimore Catechisms were local catechisms issued by the authority of the American bishops. In the hierarchy of authorities the CCC trumps the BC ten times over.

However in all honestly they’re not all that different. The BC is a simpler explanation of the Catholic faith and is very direct and to the point. The CCC is a fuller explanation and exposition of the doctrines of the Church, that’s all. Both co-exist peacefully in the Church and you can use either one to your personal tastes. What was true yesterday is true today.

Personally I think the BC is a better starting point. Because it is simpler, it’s small, and it’s easier to follow. I only use the CCC as a supplement.

Actually other English-speaking countries, like the U.K., used it as well.

Actually the Bishops of England and Wales issued their own local catechism, which is commonly called a Penny Catechism as well (though its official name was the Catechism of Christian Doctrine). The Irish Bishops released the Maynooth Catechism. They’re all basically identical, but there are minor differences. The bishops didn’t just import another regions catechism.

In Jesus and Mary,
OS.

 

[ProVobis]

Yeah, cause the Baltimore Catechism was in Latin.

The other things you mentioned were.

But I suppose an adult Catholic who picks up anything that starts with “Who made me? / God made me” to be somewhat beneath his IQ level. I found similar problems when going from U.K. English to U.S. English and they dropped me a couple of grades to learn it. I think it’s the education process and not reflective of the texts themselves.

 

[O_Sapientia]

But I suppose an adult Catholic who picks up anything that starts with “Who made me? / God made me” to be somewhat beneath his IQ level.

G. K. Chesterton disagrees with you.

In Jesus and Mary,
OS.

 

[DebChris]

Many of the immigrants coming to America were not very literate. The Baltimore Catechism was an easy way to preserve the Faith. It was supported by a faithful Catholic community. Today we live in a very secular society. Devotions within families have changed. Not every Catholic family prays the rosary daily. Some have added the Liturgy of the Hours to their daily devotions. There is a greater diversity within the Catholic community when it comes to knowledge of the Faith. There is also greater literacy, and more families who do pray are reading the Bible as a regular part of their daily devotions.

As St. John Paul II says in his introduction to the CCC, it can be used as an source for local authorities to write their own catechisms. The Baltimore Catechism was written for a particular audience, the American immigrant. Although written before the CCC, it has been referenced to the CCC in updated editions.

When I looked at the Catholic Youth Bible used for Religious Edition in my parish, I liked that it had illustrations in the margins addressing the issues the youth of today face. My parish also used St. Mary’s Catholic Faith Handbook for high schoolers.

 

[commenter]

Many of the immigrants coming to America were not very literate. The Baltimore Catechism was an easy way to preserve the Faith. It was supported by a faithful Catholic community. Today we live in a very secular society. Devotions within families have changed. Not every Catholic family prays the rosary daily. Some have added the Liturgy of the Hours to their daily devotions. There is a greater diversity within the Catholic community when it comes to knowledge of the Faith. There is also greater literacy, and more families who do pray are reading the Bible as a regular part of their daily devotions.

Commenter: As someone who has taught religion, I would say there isn’t greater “diversity” in terms of knowlege of the faith. There is greater ignorance. Students are graduating from high school religion programs with far less doctrinal content than their predecessors had in 6th grade. Much of what passes for religious education is weak psychology, sociology, and whatever the media is pushing lately. The growth of ignorance means less diversity. Many lay Catholics decades ago had the option - the knowlege base - of choosing a spirituality and intellectual approach grounded in Carmelites, Dominicans, or several others, all within the Catholic Faith. Most Catholics trained since then have less knowlege, so fewer options. There is less freedom now than before 1970, for instance, both for intellect and devotions, because people don’t know the choices, don’t understand the doctrines behind the devotions. (Yes there are exceptions).
(end Commenter)

Commenter: But it’s also useful for the 2014 child and adult, immigrant or non immigrant. Some Catholics already know the content of the Baltimore, and don’t need it. But the great majority of adults and children don’t know the content, and DO need to read it.
(end Commenter)

Commenter:
Slippery Slope Warning.