A "traditional" catholic told me that the Baltimore Catechism differs from the Catechism of PJPII

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Sometimes it helps to go back to the basics.

sacred-texts.com/chr/balt/balt1.htm
That’s what I was getting at.
Unlike the United States, I’ve lived where freedom of speech is limited and where Christianity is not the prevailing religion. I trust in the power of the Holy Spirit when my own words fail.
Scripture also tells us that when we are hauled before the magistrates, not to worry for God Himself will give us the words we are to speak.
 
Is it not true that the new church teaches that heretics, especially jews, can be saved without faith in Christ or membership in His Church? I say that is new theology, as it is a dogma that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, the idea of anyone being saved without coming to Christ denies the words of Christ Himself. God love you.
I think this question has thrown a lot of people. While I like the idea of a rote catechism like the Baltimore, and I know that such, method is serviceable to many, I also see one of the weaknesses of rote learning in this question. If we do not understand the “why”, it is easy to get thrown by new formulas and doctrinal development that is a part of the dynamic life of the Church.
 
I think this question has thrown a lot of people. While I like the idea of a rote catechism like the Baltimore, and I know that such, method is serviceable to many, I also see one of the weaknesses of rote learning in this question. If we do not understand the “why”, it is easy to get thrown by new formulas and doctrinal development that is a part of the dynamic life of the Church.
Rote memorization did not satisfy my non-Catholic classmates when they would ask me questions about my Faith. That took a deeper knowledge than I had at the time.
It is interesting that the LOTH came back to St. Cyril this week and his discourse on the Creed which summarizes the precepts of the Catholic Faith. Yet our Faith is so rich that we can spend a lifetime discovering its richness.
The bottom line is that Christ died that all men might be saved. Such is God’s will and pleasure. While God is all powerful and can do whatever he wants, he chooses not to go against man’s will. He sets before us “fire and water.”
The Tradition of the Church tells us that we are receiving the exact teachings that the Apostles received from Jesus Christ. The dynamic nature of the Church, its continued growing over time also tells us that we are constantly learning and better understanding those teachings and how to convey what Christ taught to the world in which we live.
 
Rote memorization did not satisfy my non-Catholic classmates when they would ask me questions about my Faith. That took a deeper knowledge than I had at the time.
I found it hard to satisfy* myself!* I was raised, educated and lived in a Baptist tradition. I still have to count on my fingers the number of books in the Old Testament (46?).
 
The most valuable thing I learned from my time with the monks was that doctrine is not union with God.

No matter what Catechism we choose, the removal of greed and lust and filth which covers the soul so that we move from the image of God to the likeness of God doesn’t happen through doctrine. Moving from the image to the likeness of God is a process of subtraction, simplification, detachment, inner silence and attentiveness - what Western Catholics call “practicing the presence of God” - and acts of selfless love to those who are least and lowest in the world.

I’ve never read it but am sure that the Baltimore Catechism is great. Unfortunately we don’t teach our children how to interiorize it, how to make it real in our daily lives, and how to pray.

We need less Catechism if you ask me, and more contemplation, Opus Dei and St. Francis de Sales. We need more witnesses and less teachers.

-Tim-
 
I found it hard to satisfy* myself!* I was raised, educated and lived in a Baptist tradition. I still have to count on my fingers the number of books in the Old Testament (46?).
The Baltimore Catechism doesn’t give references, only basic facts. It was written for a select audience, already deeply devoted to the Catholic Faith, with a desire to preserve that Faith as it moved into a new land.
There was more to catechism than the Baltimore Catechism. There was also the memorization of prayers and how to properly stand and address the parish priest when he entered the room. My mother could be quite persuasive. When she learned that First Communion was the next Sunday, she was able to get me transferred into the Parochial School. We attended Mass before school and were expected to know what the gospel was about. There is a difference between daily catechism and weekly catechism.
Nobody seems to talk about the brown book of Bible stories that was used for Fourth grade catechism before returning to the Baltimore Catechism, at least for those older than me. While I used the brown book, I did not return to the Baltimore Catechism. By then we were using a different series that focused on a different aspect of the Catholic Faith each year. There was still much memorization.
Even the brown book of Bible stories was simply a collection of the basic stories that every Christian child is familiar with. I think I have seen similar “Sunday school books” when I have visited non-Catholic churches. The most up-to-date and better catechisms of today are more likely to have actual quotes from the Bible as part of the lesson.
What no teacher or director of religious education has control over is how much re-enforcement of the Faith a child is receiving at home.
It is interesting when you talk about the Baptist tradition that I have met Baptists who know more about Catholic history than many Catholics. They use it to unsuccessfully challenge my Faith.
 
The most valuable thing I learned from my time with the monks was that doctrine is not union with God.

No matter what Catechism we choose, the removal of greed and lust and filth which covers the soul so that we move from the image of God to the likeness of God doesn’t happen through doctrine. Moving from the image to the likeness of God is a process of subtraction, simplification, detachment, inner silence and attentiveness - what Western Catholics call “practicing the presence of God” - and acts of selfless love to those who are least and lowest in the world.

I’ve never read it but am sure that the Baltimore Catechism is great. Unfortunately we don’t teach our children how to interiorize it, how to make it real in our daily lives, and how to pray.

We need less Catechism if you ask me, and more contemplation, Opus Dei and St. Francis de Sales. We need more witnesses and less teachers.

-Tim-
I read a story many years ago. A Catholic priest and a Buddhist priest met, but did not understand a word the other said. A Catholic monk and a Buddhist monk met and understood each other instantly.
You are right. It is one thing to know our Faith. It is important to have knowledge of what the Catholic Church teaches. It is more important to live our Faith, for that Faith to become part of who we are. Prayer needs to be more than rote memorization. As we grow in faith, our lives become prayer.
In catechism we learn about the martyrs who died for their faith, not how they developed and grew into that Faith over time. We don’t learn that martyr means “witness” or “obedience” means “listen.” These are lessons that come later as we mature in the Faith that has been handed down to us.
 
The Baltimore Catechism doesn’t give references, only basic facts. It was written for a select audience, already deeply devoted to the Catholic Faith, with a desire to preserve that Faith as it moved into a new land.
Basic facts are crucial. They are lacking in many religion textbooks. The Baltimore catechism wasn’t written for a select audience, it was written for the average child and adult. Some of the posts here, and in other threads, refer to “rote memorization” with disdain, as if God’s gift of memorization which is crucial in learning other subjects is somehow inappropriate in Religion. The argument seems to be that we have to choose either/or - do you want to memorize basic facts, or instead, a more fervent, heart felt faith.

I have been in lots of discussion groups and renewal programs where there was no communication, let alone commitment, to basic facts of Catholicism, so people wandered off in all directions - essentially ego trips. I have actually heard speakers ask “what’s more important, doctrine or love?” The obvious message they send is that doctrine is unimportant. But I have never found doctrinal ignorance to strengthen devotion, openness to the Spirit, or actions of love. The secular culture has created a climate where “spirituality” is now considered a good thing in itself. If you tell someone he is very “spiritual” he will think he is being complimented, and thank you. “Spirituality” in the secular culture is defined as the opposite of memorizing and obeying dogma.

The Baltimore Catechism is incomplete, as all good foundations are incomplete. Memorization is only one element of study of Religion (and other subjects) but a necessary element. The Faith and Life Series is also excellent. Both are consistent with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
 
Basic facts are crucial. They are lacking in many religion textbooks. The Baltimore catechism wasn’t written for a select audience, it was written for the average child and adult. Some of the posts here, and in other threads, refer to “rote memorization” with disdain, as if God’s gift of memorization which is crucial in learning other subjects is somehow inappropriate in Religion. The argument seems to be that we have to choose either/or - do you want to memorize basic facts, or instead, a more fervent, heart felt faith.

I have been in lots of discussion groups and renewal programs where there was no communication, let alone commitment, to basic facts of Catholicism, so people wandered off in all directions - essentially ego trips. I have actually heard speakers ask “what’s more important, doctrine or love?” The obvious message they send is that doctrine is unimportant. But I have never found doctrinal ignorance to strengthen devotion, openness to the Spirit, or actions of love. The secular culture has created a climate where “spirituality” is now considered a good thing in itself. If you tell someone he is very “spiritual” he will think he is being complimented, and thank you. “Spirituality” in the secular culture is defined as the opposite of memorizing and obeying dogma.

The Baltimore Catechism is incomplete, as all good foundations are incomplete. Memorization is only one element of study of Religion (and other subjects) but a necessary element. The Faith and Life Series is also excellent. Both are consistent with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
If you read my complete post in response to what Timothy wrote, you would see that memorization is a starting point. It is not an end in itself, which what Timothy was also alluding to. The Baltimore Catechism was originally written for the American Catholic immigrant. It continued in use long after Catholics no longer lived in Catholic enclaves. We memorized the answers to the questions. We also memorized the prayers of the rosary that we prayed every day. We memorized the 10 Commandments and the formula for the confessional. There were also the Catholic formalities that we practiced. Yes, the Baltimore Catechism has shown that it is consistent with the CCC.
The Baltimore Catechism does not tell you to put your shoes under your bed so that you have to get down on your knees in the morning to say your morning offering. That is something that comes from the sisters at the Catholic school. It is my mother who told me I had to carry my rosary with me at all times. It is my mother who did not let me leave home without a blessing on the forehead.
What Timothy was writing about was moving beyond the memorization into the living of the Faith, so that it becomes ingrained. The Sacraments need to be more than social events. Confirmation needs to more than a graduation ceremony. We need to move beyond knowledge of God to encounter with the living God. Against the secular backdrop we become a countercultural witness to the power of God at work within our lives.
 
If you read my complete post in response to what Timothy wrote, you would see that memorization is a starting point. It is not an end in itself, which what Timothy was also alluding to. The Baltimore Catechism was originally written for the American Catholic immigrant. It continued in use long after Catholics no longer lived in Catholic enclaves. We memorized the answers to the questions. We also memorized the prayers of the rosary that we prayed every day. We memorized the 10 Commandments and the formula for the confessional. There were also the Catholic formalities that we practiced. Yes, the Baltimore Catechism has shown that it is consistent with the CCC.
The Baltimore Catechism does not tell you to put your shoes under your bed so that you have to get down on your knees in the morning to say your morning offering. That is something that comes from the sisters at the Catholic school. It is my mother who told me I had to carry my rosary with me at all times. It is my mother who did not let me leave home without a blessing on the forehead.
What Timothy was writing about was moving beyond the memorization into the living of the Faith, so that it becomes ingrained. The Sacraments need to be more than social events. Confirmation needs to more than a graduation ceremony. We need to move beyond knowledge of God to encounter with the living God. Against the secular backdrop we become a countercultural witness to the power of God at work within our lives.
If you are talking about the kids in my 1963 Parochial 8th grade class, you probably would have been right if you assessed it that way back then. If you are talking about kids today, what they have and what they definitely are lacking, well…

Each generation tends to project its own needs, strengths and weaknesses onto the generation that came after it. But they may be different.
 
He also mentioned that the new Catechism offers up a new theology. I’m guessing he alluded to certain new theology introduced during Vatican II which were incorporated into the new catechism.

Question: does JPII’s Catechism super cede the Baltimore version? Should I even read the latter?
The CCC is the universal catechism of the Church. Some countries have local catechisms (e.g. Baltimore Catechism) but while local ones express teachings in a different way (e.g. question and answer) what local ones teach cannot contradict the CCC.
 
Basic facts are crucial. They are lacking in many religion textbooks. The Baltimore catechism wasn’t written for a select audience, it was written for the average child and adult. Some of the posts here, and in other threads, refer to “rote memorization” with disdain, as if God’s gift of memorization which is crucial in learning other subjects is somehow inappropriate in Religion.
I do not think anyone is disdaining the memorization of facts. However, in this information age, one has to prepare also for the challenges to those facts, questioning whether they are facts, or just precepts of man. This website started as a need to engage in the “why” of the Catholic faith, not just the “what”, so perhaps this place is a not representative of Catholicism as a whole.

Also, as I have said earlier, I believe the over-reliance on memorization has led many Catholics to perceive the Church as changing and contradictory, as doctrine is restated in words other than the ones memorized. All memorization falls short in some way, yet the need for some rote learning is not diminished by this weakness. Priests, as the first part of their seminary education, must first learn philosophy as a basis for understanding (not memorizing) theology.
 
Before we can internalize the faith in an advanced spiritual way, don’t we have to know it?

What does it mean to know? We can say that knowing is not merely an intellectual process but also a personal and experiential one. But learning the basic concepts is indispensable. And then discussing them with others and living them. I believe this personal aspect is what was absent from the Baltimore Catechism days. Catholics were fed doctrines without being asked to chew them with others, swallow them, articulate them to others. Part of the process of growing with God is giving what we have to others, evangelizing. We simply can’t give what we don’t know. If we can’t give it we can’t know it more fully. Evangelizing is not all “being kind”, and it is not all doctrine thumping. It’s all part of the same process.

My wife and I have conversations about our faith and the scriptures almost everyday. In contrast, when I grew up in the “old days” I don’t ever remember my parents discussing the faith. They knew it, but didn’t talk about it. That was what priests or “holy rollers” did. Thankfully we have come out of our shells.

I disagree with the notion that knowing doctrine is not part of the process of union with God. Is it possible to jump to the contemplative spiritual heights before “eating basic food”? Saints who reached great spiritual heights would say no to that, they recognize this process. Knowing scripture and teaching is an integral part of coming to union with God. John of the Cross’ writings are imbued with a knowledge of scripture and Church teaching. He cautions us not to latch on to great spiritual experiences but to question them and test them.
 
I do not think anyone is disdaining the memorization of facts. However, in this information age, one has to prepare also for the challenges to those facts, questioning whether they are facts, or just precepts of man. This website started as a need to engage in the “why” of the Catholic faith, not just the “what”, so perhaps this place is a not representative of Catholicism as a whole.

Also, as I have said earlier, I believe the over-reliance on memorization has led many Catholics to perceive the Church as changing and contradictory, as doctrine is restated in words other than the ones memorized. All memorization falls short in some way, yet the need for some rote learning is not diminished by this weakness. Priests, as the first part of their seminary education, must first learn philosophy as a basis for understanding (not memorizing) theology.
One thing to note here, and you may have implied it. Those who challenge the basics of theology (or physics or history, for that matter) leave themselves open to being challenged as well. Einstein came out with equations that seemed to disprove Newton (not you :)) but someone else came along and showed that Einstein’s E=m*c^2 wasn’t totally accurate either, using Einstein’s arguments against him. Yet Newton’s Laws still apply for the most part, and we’re safe in memorizing those.
 
I do not think anyone is disdaining the memorization of facts. However, in this information age, one has to prepare also for the challenges to those facts, questioning whether they are facts, or just precepts of man. This website started as a need to engage in the “why” of the Catholic faith, not just the “what”, so perhaps this place is a not representative of Catholicism as a whole.

Also, as I have said earlier, I believe the over-reliance on memorization has led many Catholics to perceive the Church as changing and contradictory, as doctrine is restated in words other than the ones memorized. All memorization falls short in some way, yet the need for some rote learning is not diminished by this weakness. Priests, as the first part of their seminary education, must first learn philosophy as a basis for understanding (not memorizing) theology.
I am one of those people who struggle with memorization. It comes not because I have to memorize but from the doing, when I quit trying. I know my prayers because they have been repeated daily since I was an infant.
When I worked in a factory, I did not try to memorize the sizes of shipping pallets. They came naturally from daily use.
When you are aware of the historical development of the Church, and not simply memorized answers to questions, it is easier to see its continuity over time.
In modern pedagogy, students are encouraged to rephrase their answers in their own words, to show that they understand what they have read and not simply parrot back answers. I think this is where my classmates were stumping me. I had the memorized answers of the Baltimore Catechism, but had not yet developed enough understanding of my Faith to respond to them.
Before we can internalize the faith in an advanced spiritual way, don’t we have to know it?

What does it mean to know? We can say that knowing is not merely an intellectual process but also a personal and experiential one. But learning the basic concepts is indispensable. And then discussing them with others and living them. I believe this personal aspect is what was absent from the Baltimore Catechism days. Catholics were fed doctrines without being asked to chew them with others, swallow them, articulate them to others. Part of the process of growing with God is giving what we have to others, evangelizing. We simply can’t give what we don’t know. If we can’t give it we can’t know it more fully. Evangelizing is not all “being kind”, and it is not all doctrine thumping. It’s all part of the same process.

My wife and I have conversations about our faith and the scriptures almost everyday. In contrast, when I grew up in the “old days” I don’t ever remember my parents discussing the faith. They knew it, but didn’t talk about it. That was what priests or “holy rollers” did. Thankfully we have come out of our shells.

I disagree with the notion that knowing doctrine is not part of the process of union with God. Is it possible to jump to the contemplative spiritual heights before “eating basic food”? Saints who reached great spiritual heights would say no to that, they recognize this process. Knowing scripture and teaching is an integral part of coming to union with God. John of the Cross’ writings are imbued with a knowledge of scripture and Church teaching. He cautions us not to latch on to great spiritual experiences but to question them and test them.
Many families lived the “shoulds and should nots” of Catholicism. They went through the motions. Pope Francis recently talked about this, about the social elements of the Sacraments being perceived as more important than the Sacraments themselves. Parents had children baptized because it was expected.
The Baltimore Catechism did not talk about scripture. We did not discuss the Bible at home. At least we had copies. I was given my own children’s version to read. I spent time overseas, so I was not in a house that gathered around to watch episodes of Fulton Sheen on television. One brother spent a year in seminary. We had religious artwork around the house. There were only the simplest of discussions about faith. My parents read stories like “The Littlest Angel.” I picked up books from the back of the military chapel to read about the lives of various Saints. I went with my mother to various novenas, or she would take me with her to clean the church, or on trips with the Catholic women’s club.
Not all families center their lives on the Church. The lack of understanding of the Faith is one reason more parishes are emphasizing adult religious education.
There is a difference between being taught the catechism, any catechism, while surrounded by a family devoted to the Catholic Faith, and simply going to religious education because it is expected. It is the difference between attending Sunday Mass out of obligation and participating in the Eucharistic celebration and then living the Catholic Faith on a daily basis.
 
One thing to note here, and you may have implied it. Those who challenge the basics of theology (or physics or history, for that matter) leave themselves open to being challenged as well. Einstein came out with equations that seemed to disprove Newton (not you :)) but someone else came along and showed that Einstein’s E=m*c^2 wasn’t totally accurate either, using Einstein’s arguments against him. Yet Newton’s Laws still apply for the most part, and we’re safe in memorizing those.
Scripture tells us to test the spirits. That which is from God will stand the test of time.
“Jesus is Lord!”
 
[snip]
The lack of understanding of the Faith is one reason more parishes are emphasizing adult religious education.
There is a difference between being taught the catechism, any catechism, while surrounded by a family devoted to the Catholic Faith, and simply going to religious education because it is expected. It is the difference between attending Sunday Mass out of obligation and participating in the Eucharistic celebration and then living the Catholic Faith on a daily basis.
Unfortunately there has been a backlash against learning what the Church teaches in the Catechism, to the point where much of religious ed is overly-spiritualized and overly experiential. Our parish has several lay ministry graduates who believe the higher experiences of God are something to be attained quickly. Scripture and documents of V2 are interpreted selectively subject to personal and cultural experiences. It can be difficult for people with real concerns about Catholicism to get themselves “centered” (no I’m not going there) before they know what it is they should be centered on. This type of spirituality is not attracting many people.

Our RCIA program on the other hand, presents the faith in an orthodox way in a small group setting with other Catholics. People have questions. We talk about them. We use a catechism, we use scripture. We try not to interpret things to our own liking. We need to give them good answers, and not merely ask them to center themselves on Jesus (yes that is the goal also, but the finish line is not the starting line.)
In this process you have learning, and Christian witness, both in context.
 
Unfortunately there has been a backlash against learning what the Church teaches in the Catechism, to the point where much of religious ed is overly-spiritualized and overly experiential. Our parish has several lay ministry graduates who believe the higher experiences of God are something to be attained quickly. Scripture and documents of V2 are interpreted selectively subject to personal and cultural experiences. It can be difficult for people with real concerns about Catholicism to get themselves “centered” (no I’m not going there) before they know what it is they should be centered on. This type of spirituality is not attracting many people.

Our RCIA program on the other hand, presents the faith in an orthodox way in a small group setting with other Catholics. People have questions. We talk about them. We use a catechism, we use scripture. We try not to interpret things to our own liking. We need to give them good answers, and not merely ask them to center themselves on Jesus (yes that is the goal also, but the finish line is not the starting line.)
In this process you have learning, and Christian witness, both in context.
It is clear, therefore, that, in in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred tradition, sacred scripture and the magisterium of the church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way under the action of the Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.[Vatican II Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation].

I have both NAB and RSV translations of the Bible. Both have copies of the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation. Acts 2 tells us that the first converts to The Way, or Christianity, submitted to the teachings of the Apostles. As Catholics, we do likewise when we accept the teaching authority of the magisterium.

I had not paid attention to section in my NAB translation after the Vatican II Constitution titled “The Bible and Catholic Life.” This section begins with the “Baltimore Catechism” question and answer, Why are we on earth? Questions and answers are annotated with references to the Saints, Vatican II documents, and scripture.
 
One thing to note here, and you may have implied it. Those who challenge the basics of theology (or physics or history, for that matter) leave themselves open to being challenged as well. Einstein came out with equations that seemed to disprove Newton (not you :)) but someone else came along and** showed that Einstein’s E=m*c^2 wasn’t totally accurate either, using Einstein’s arguments against him.** Yet Newton’s Laws still apply for the most part, and we’re safe in memorizing those.
Not true. E=mc^2 is still the only used equation to connect E and m. Also Physics is not about arguments, it is about measurements. We can measure that the position of the moon, mercury and many other things are as predicted my Einsteins equations but are in contradiction to Newtons equations. And E=mc^2 is still a foundation of modern quantum mechanics.

Sorry I am physic scientist and just could not resist. 🙂
 
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