A Traditional Catholic... with a boyfriend?

[TarkanAttila]

Have you ever encountered a practising homosexual who also, except for that, is a largely faithful Catholic?

My head hurts at the thought. But, yes, such things exist. I feel rather confused, and yet I feel like I should have known people could or would do this.

My question is, is this homosexual Catholic, living in a life of sin and yet still largely Catholic in culture and to some degree religion - is he any better off than those who feel they can no longer be Catholic because they are “homosexual”?

Or am I just overreacting? Is it really no less strange than the liberal nuns who advocate for women’s ordination and the “pro-choice Catholics” whom some bishops will not excommunicate?

I’m just having trouble believing what I’ve heard. But I am absolutely sure I heard from the same mouth a male Catholic with a relative fervour for the Church - who also is a man with a boyfriend.

My head hurts.

 

[Murmurs]

Have you ever encountered a practising homosexual who also, except for that, is a largely faithful Catholic?

My head hurts at the thought. But, yes, such things exist. I feel rather confused, and yet I feel like I should have known people could or would do this.

My question is, is this homosexual Catholic, living in a life of sin and yet still largely Catholic in culture and to some degree religion - is he any better off than those who feel they can no longer be Catholic because they are “homosexual”?

Or am I just overreacting? Is it really no less strange than the liberal nuns who advocate for women’s ordination and the “pro-choice Catholics” whom some bishops will not excommunicate?

I’m just having trouble believing what I’ve heard. But I am absolutely sure I heard from the same mouth a male Catholic with a relative fervour for the Church - who also is a man with a boyfriend.

My head hurts.

I won’t comment on what is/isn’t sinful in his situation (having a boyfriend can’t be in the slightest, though perhaps expressing their mutual love in particular ways is, for the Church at any rate). But I don’t think there’s actually an inherent contradiction in being homosexual of itself, and in being a faithful Catholic.

First of all, there is undoubtedly sin in his life (there is, frankly, in everyone’s - it’s just fairly obvious in what way for him!). But that doesn’t mean he can’t be entirely faithful to Church teaching in every other respect, and he’s only drawn towards sin in this area because of whom he is naturally built to fall in love with.

The Church’s - and indeed all of western society’s - rather…awkward…obsession with sex (in any kind of context) I think rather gives the impression that how one expresses sexual desire is the ONLY or HIGHEST arbiter of one’s personal identity. That’s clearly rubbish. Your friend is a faithful Catholic man who happens to be gay - rather than a gay man who is also trying (best he can) to be a faithful Roman Catholic.

One of my closest friends, from my church, is also homosexual, and in a (platonic, as far as I can tell) relationship with another woman. Just because she’s gay, that doesn’t mean automatically she disagrees with Church teaching on the matter, or that she desires to disobey it. She is just as faithfully - even stunningly conservative - Catholic as the next woman, who happens to be in love with another woman. I suspect it’s a similar case to this man’s.

I don’t know how he must feel in his heart, about these two aspects to his life each of which must bring him great joy - because there’s frankly inherent conflict between the two. In one sense his situation maybe is “worse” because he will unequivocally know what he is doing is sinful; on the other hand I think there is something to greatly celebrate in someone who is at peace (?) with his sexuality but has not felt driven from the Church as a result.

I suppose it’s very similar to all those millions of Catholics who use contraception (there are WAY too many 2 or 3-child ‘good Catholic’ families for everyone to just be practicing NFP!). If one can square it with one’s conscience then that doesn’t make it ok but a compromise between accepting the nurturing love of Christ and the love of another human being sometimes has to be made somewhere, sometimes. That doesn’t necessarily stop is being sinful but I’m pretty sure that God does, in fact, understand.

To go back to the original issue, it’s one area where the Bible is rather unequivocal on the matter. But were this man known to me, I would not talk to him or pray for him that his life might be changed, but only that his soul is in this life, and shall always be (especially this Sunday), at peace.

 

[agnes_therese]

Have you ever encountered a practising homosexual who also, except for that, is a largely faithful Catholic?

Do you know as absolute fact that he is “practising”? Or are you assuming?
Of course someone with same-sex attraction can be a faithful Catholic.

 

[IrishAm]

Have you ever encountered a practising homosexual who also, except for that, is a largely faithful Catholic?

Yes. But I have known far more practicing heterosexuals who also, except for that, are largely faithful Catholics.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I won’t comment on what is/isn’t sinful in his situation (having a boyfriend can’t be in the slightest, though perhaps expressing their mutual love in particular ways is, for the Church at any rate). But I don’t think there’s actually an inherent contradiction in being homosexual of itself, and in being a faithful Catholic.

First of all, there is undoubtedly sin in his life (there is, frankly, in everyone’s - it’s just fairly obvious in what way for him!). But that doesn’t mean he can’t be entirely faithful to Church teaching in every other respect, and he’s only drawn towards sin in this area because of whom he is naturally built to fall in love with.

The Church’s - and indeed all of western society’s - rather…awkward…obsession with sex (in any kind of context) I think rather gives the impression that how one expresses sexual desire is the ONLY or HIGHEST arbiter of one’s personal identity. That’s clearly rubbish. Your friend is a faithful Catholic man who happens to be gay - rather than a gay man who is also trying (best he can) to be a faithful Roman Catholic.

One of my closest friends, from my church, is also homosexual, and in a (platonic, as far as I can tell) relationship with another woman. Just because she’s gay, that doesn’t mean automatically she disagrees with Church teaching on the matter, or that she desires to disobey it. She is just as faithfully - even stunningly conservative - Catholic as the next woman, who happens to be in love with another woman. I suspect it’s a similar case to this man’s.

I don’t know how he must feel in his heart, about these two aspects to his life each of which must bring him great joy - because there’s frankly inherent conflict between the two. In one sense his situation maybe is “worse” because he will unequivocally know what he is doing is sinful; on the other hand I think there is something to greatly celebrate in someone who is at peace (?) with his sexuality but has not felt driven from the Church as a result.

I suppose it’s very similar to all those millions of Catholics who use contraception (there are WAY too many 2 or 3-child ‘good Catholic’ families for everyone to just be practicing NFP!). If one can square it with one’s conscience then that doesn’t make it ok but a compromise between accepting the nurturing love of Christ and the love of another human being sometimes has to be made somewhere, sometimes. That doesn’t necessarily stop is being sinful but I’m pretty sure that God does, in fact, understand.

To go back to the original issue, it’s one area where the Bible is rather unequivocal on the matter. But were this man known to me, I would not talk to him or pray for him that his life might be changed, but only that his soul is in this life, and shall always be (especially this Sunday), at peace.

(Bolding mine)

This whole post is just incredible. Absolutely downright incredible. It is the kindest, most fair representation of homosexuals that I have ever seen on CAF. You should submit this to the Vatican, because I’m pretty sure you summed up exactly what Pope Francis wants the world to hear about the Catholic Church and it’s love for everyone. The bolded part in particular was especially profound.

 

[TarkanAttila]

…Your friend is a faithful Catholic man who happens to be gay - rather than a gay man who is also trying (best he can) to be a faithful Roman Catholic.

You know, you’re right. My post, I think, was largely a result of a feeling of intoxication after encountering this man. This is a very idea to me, very strange. Kind of exciting. But it certainly challenges my preconceptions of what a homosexual in the Church would, or should, look like.

In other words, it’s just not something I’m used to. But it seems to be… working, as far as it goes. Which seems to be pretty far, to me.

One of my closest friends, from my church, is also homosexual, and in a (platonic, as far as I can tell) relationship with another woman. Just because she’s gay, that doesn’t mean automatically she disagrees with Church teaching on the matter, or that she desires to disobey it.

That’s actually the one area he disagrees with. He’s gay, and he’s quite happy with it.

She is just as faithfully - even stunningly conservative - Catholic as the next woman, who happens to be in love with another woman. I suspect it’s a similar case to this man’s.

I think you’re probably right, because from what he’s told me, and my encounter with him, he seems to be at least culturally Catholic. I take that as a good sign, at least these days, when you don’t have to pretend to be Catholic if you don’t want to be.

I don’t know how he must feel in his heart, about these two aspects to his life each of which must bring him great joy - because there’s frankly inherent conflict between the two. In one sense his situation maybe is “worse” because he will unequivocally know what he is doing is sinful

Unfortunately, it seems to me, he doesn’t believe it is a sin. I bet he knows about Church teaching. The man even talked about the Synod on the Family, saying he got something from a Vatican news service about the acceptance of homosexuals (if not their marriages). …Which tells me more about him than about the Synod…

on the other hand I think there is something to greatly celebrate in someone who is at peace (?) with his sexuality but has not felt driven from the Church as a result.

Yes. The man believes in transubstantiation. I haven’t queried him on every little thing, but that’s a one-up on about… 30% of Catholics in this country, at least? So I’m impressed.

He also has a love of Church architecture. He was able to make and appreciate some Catholic jokes. He’s not ignorant of the different orders or the work it takes to get into seminary or an order. He knows a lot. I can’t help but think he has a great deal of passion, because, according to him, in the RP we’re both in, he even says the Mass. In Latin.

Again, I’m impressed.

If one can square it with one’s conscience then that doesn’t make it ok but a compromise between accepting the nurturing love of Christ and the love of another human being sometimes has to be made somewhere, sometimes. That doesn’t necessarily stop is being sinful but I’m pretty sure that God does, in fact, understand.

To go back to the original issue, it’s one area where the Bible is rather unequivocal on the matter. But were this man known to me, I would not talk to him or pray for him that his life might be changed, but only that his soul is in this life, and shall always be (especially this Sunday), at peace.

Well, I will pray for him in that respect. But I will also pray God to be merciful with Him. And, given your advice, I will definitely focus on our mutual Catholicism.

I’ll be doing a lot of listening, though. Because, boy does he know a lot more than me.

Do you know as absolute fact that he is “practising”? Or are you assuming?
Of course someone with same-sex attraction can be a faithful Catholic.

I have some good indicators. For one thing, he is young, and he is at least a cultural Catholic - able to make GOOD jokes about different orders.

For example: a Dominican and a Jesuit have a vision of the Holy Family. The Dominican falls on his face in prayer. The Jesuit, on the other hand, walks up to Joseph, puts his arm around his shoulder, and says, “So, when do you want to start educating the boy?”

He also has an understanding of seminary and what that entails. He role-plays the Latin Mass - in a game that absolutely doesn’t demand that. He believes in transubstantiation.

He basically says he was “born in the wrong time”, and he wishes that people were more moral today. ***Now if only we could get more Catholics in the pews to desire that!

---

Yes. But I have known far more practicing heterosexuals who also, except for that, are largely faithful Catholics.

A very good point.

 

[agnes_therese]

I have some good indicators. For one thing, he is young, and he is at least a cultural Catholic - able to make GOOD jokes about different orders.

For example: a Dominican and a Jesuit have a vision of the Holy Family. The Dominican falls on his face in prayer. The Jesuit, on the other hand, walks up to Joseph, puts his arm around his shoulder, and says, “So, when do you want to start educating the boy?”

He also has an understanding of seminary and what that entails. He role-plays the Latin Mass - in a game that absolutely doesn’t demand that. He believes in transubstantiation.

I don’t see what that has to do with my question about whether you know for a fact that he is “a practising homosexual” (as you said in the original post), or whether you are just, for some reason, assuming that?

 

[cheese_sdc]

Have you ever encountered a practising homosexual who also, except for that, is a largely faithful Catholic?

My head hurts at the thought. But, yes, such things exist. I feel rather confused, and yet I feel like I should have known people could or would do this.

My question is, is this homosexual Catholic, living in a life of sin and yet still largely Catholic in culture and to some degree religion - is he any better off than those who feel they can no longer be Catholic because they are “homosexual”?

Or am I just overreacting? Is it really no less strange than the liberal nuns who advocate for women’s ordination and the “pro-choice Catholics” whom some bishops will not excommunicate?

I’m just having trouble believing what I’ve heard. But I am absolutely sure I heard from the same mouth a male Catholic with a relative fervour for the Church - who also is a man with a boyfriend.

My head hurts.

Imagine that, a sinner who is Catholic. What’re the odds?

 

[TarkanAttila]

I don’t see what that has to do with my question about whether you know for a fact that he is “a practising homosexual” (as you said in the original post), or whether you are just, for some reason, assuming that?

He very specifically used the term “boyfriend”. He said of this “boyfriend” that there’s no chance he’d be in seminary because of said boyfriend.

I suppose it’s not impossible they’re chaste…

Imagine that, a sinner who is Catholic. What’re the odds?

Well, Our Lord does say that only one sin is unforgivable. And He didn’t say it was sodomy.

 

[andrewstx]

He very specifically used the term “boyfriend”. He said of this “boyfriend” that there’s no chance he’d be in seminary because of said boyfriend.

I suppose it’s not impossible they’re chaste…

Well, Our Lord does say that only one sin is unforgivable. And He didn’t say it was sodomy.

It is quite possible that they are chaste. And the ‘boyfriend’ could very possibly could just be a friend who happens to be a boy. It would not be possible to really know without unseemly and perhaps sinful spying.

When I was a chaste religious I learned of a thing called “particular friendship”. That is where two people obviously of the same gender are very close friends while still retaining their chastity. In the small community I belonged to there was an obvious “particular friendship”. The two were inseperable, always together. But they were still as chaste as the day is long. Sodomy played absolutely no part in the friendship which was completely platonic.

While the church does not exactly welcome such friendships, on the other hand the two men were allowed to stay in the same ‘house’ monastery. They were not sent off to separate locations.

How do you or we know that the reason they dwell under the same roof is that they are young and poor and cannot afford to live separately?

 

[clem456]

I have met plenty of practicing Catholics who break the 6th commandment. They are all heterosexual to my knowledge. I hope they go to confession although I have no reason to believe they are.

I just don’t worry about it much. I have my own issues with sin. I try to have a relationship with everyone in the parish and if God gives me an opportunity to have a conversation about sexuality with someone (has never happened yet) I will tactfully engage.

 

[HelenRose]

Have you ever encountered a practising homosexual who also, except for that, is a largely faithful Catholic?

My head hurts at the thought. But, yes, such things exist. I feel rather confused, and yet I feel like I should have known people could or would do this.

My question is, is this homosexual Catholic, living in a life of sin and yet still largely Catholic in culture and to some degree religion - is he any better off than those who feel they can no longer be Catholic because they are “homosexual”?

Or am I just overreacting? Is it really no less strange than the liberal nuns who advocate for women’s ordination and the “pro-choice Catholics” whom some bishops will not excommunicate?

I’m just having trouble believing what I’ve heard. But I am absolutely sure I heard from the same mouth a male Catholic with a relative fervour for the Church - who also is a man with a boyfriend.

My head hurts.

You are not in their bedroom. It is none of your business. For all you know they may be living a life of chastity. It is their journey not yours. The moral laws of the Church are not going to change but we do not know and can not know the journey each one of us has to make to come to the fullness of Christ’s Truth.

 

[HelenRose]

Have you ever encountered a practising homosexual who also, except for that, is a largely faithful Catholic?

My head hurts at the thought. But, yes, such things exist. I feel rather confused, and yet I feel like I should have known people could or would do this.

My question is, is this homosexual Catholic, living in a life of sin and yet still largely Catholic in culture and to some degree religion - is he any better off than those who feel they can no longer be Catholic because they are “homosexual”?

Or am I just overreacting? Is it really no less strange than the liberal nuns who advocate for women’s ordination and the “pro-choice Catholics” whom some bishops will not excommunicate?

I’m just having trouble believing what I’ve heard. But I am absolutely sure I heard from the same mouth a male Catholic with a relative fervour for the Church - who also is a man with a boyfriend.

My head hurts.

You are not in their bedroom and it is none of your business. It is just as wrong for heterosexual couples to live together without marriage. It is their journey. Not ours. You do not know their pain and their loneliness.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Thanks, guys. You’ve given me a great deal of peace about the subject. Now I know I am doing the right thing by not drawing attention to it. I will cooperate with him, and keep in touch, and enjoy the experience of sharing the faith with him… even when he does talk about his “boyfriend”.

 

[kozlosap]

You are not in their bedroom and it is none of your business. It is just as wrong for heterosexual couples to live together without marriage. It is their journey. Not ours. You do not know their pain and their loneliness.

thank you so much for putting this whole conversation into the correct context! If we all spent more time removing that plank from our eye, we would have little time left over to judge and hate those who are different from us.

 

[LatinByzCath]

Do you know as absolute fact that he is “practising”? Or are you assuming?
Of course someone with same-sex attraction can be a faithful Catholic.

I’ll add to this a bit.

Many SSA Catholics, traditionalist and non, are celibate. They’re called “Side B”, a term from the “Gay Christian Network” denoting celibate gays, as apposed to “Side A”, affirming gay Christians.

I know some celibate gay Christians who live with other celibate gay Christians, and they are in a relationship with one another. However, what they consider a “relationship” is one of mutual support on the road to celibacy. Many times, they call eachother girlfriends or boyfriends. Don’t ask me why!

Anyway, it’s entirely possible that a Catholic SSA person with a “boyfriend” isn’t doing anything sinful, though why they’d choose to call their partner that when they’re celibate is beyond me.

If your friend is in a sexual relationship, he has excommunicated himself from the Church. Receiving the Eucharist, or going to confession without the intention to change his ways, are sins on his soul. So long as you’re not doing these things, don’t worry! The Church, though the current Holy Father isn’t so ready to say so, is very clear about these matters. God judges you and I. He will make this person accountable for their sins if, indeed, your suspicions are correct.

 

[LatinByzCath]

I have met plenty of practicing Catholics who break the 6th commandment. They are all heterosexual to my knowledge. I hope they go to confession although I have no reason to believe they are.

I just don’t worry about it much. I have my own issues with sin. I try to have a relationship with everyone in the parish and if God gives me an opportunity to have a conversation about sexuality with someone (has never happened yet) I will tactfully engage.

One time, I had a priest tell me that if I knew another was sinning and not going to confession, I was obliged to tell them (or else it’s a mortal sin on me!)

I’ve gotten to the point where, after studying the scriptures and Church tradition on the subject, I think this is only appropriate in certain circumstances. If I know the person very well, and I know they are taking their faith seriously and would be very happy to know if they’re unknowingly sinning, I tell them. Other than that, I keep my mouth shut.

Homosexuality seems to be the most cringe worthy offense in the Church today (well, I can think of a few others…) We have to remember, though, that sin is sin. Unless we want to go around to all of the heterosexuals who are having sex outside of marriage, or to all of the married and non-married couples who are contracepting, we’d do better to keep our mouth shut.

The priests are the ones who should be doing this for their flock. I’ll admit that many priests today wouldn’t dare tell someone they can’t approach the Eucharist (at least, not in my diocese ), but we must have faith that the Church is the Church, and her teachings have not changed, whether people follow or not!

 

[clem456]

One time, I had a priest tell me that if I knew another was sinning and not going to confession, I was obliged to tell them (or else it’s a mortal sin on me!)

I’ve gotten to the point where, after studying the scriptures and Church tradition on the subject, I think this is only appropriate in certain circumstances. If I know the person very well, and I know they are taking their faith seriously and would be very happy to know if they’re unknowingly sinning, I tell them. Other than that, I keep my mouth shut.

Homosexuality seems to be the most cringe worthy offense in the Church today (well, I can think of a few others…) We have to remember, though, that sin is sin. Unless we want to go around to all of the heterosexuals who are having sex outside of marriage, or to all of the married and non-married couples who are contracepting, we’d do better to keep our mouth shut.

The priests are the ones who should be doing this for their flock. I’ll admit that many priests today wouldn’t dare tell someone they can’t approach the Eucharist (at least, not in my diocese ), but we must have faith that the Church is the Church, and her teachings have not changed, whether people follow or not!

I guess prudence shows the right course of action. Will my words of correction be fruitful? In most cases, no. Will my words of correction in fact drive someone farther from conversion? That happens a lot. If someone is open to discussion, then we should discuss it. We shouldn’t go around correcting people just to alleviate our own consciences.

 

[LatinByzCath]

I’m transplanting this from another thread, because I think it’s relevant.

I believe that the Church has never denied that Bl. John Newman and Father Ambrose St. John were of the homosexual inclination. They were reportedly chaste all their lives. They lived together for many, many years and were totally devoted to each other. After Fr. St. John’s death, Newman was inconsolable. He specifically requested that upon his own death that he be buried with Fr. St. John, a command that was carried out.

 

[clem456]

I’m transplanting this from another thread, because I think it’s relevant.

If they were chaste is it fair to use the word homosexual in regard to them?
And I love how the poster says “The Church has never denied…” which it seems is the mother of all proof of wrongdoing nowadays.

The Church has never denied I scratched myself this morning either.