A very scary thought

  • Thread starter Thread starter Via_Dolorosa
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
leonardclark.com/blog/

Please read this soldiers blog. I think he has a lot to contribute to this discussion. This blog will be erased some time today. I was especially moved by his actual voicemail messages.
 
Without getting political as this is a Moral Theology area this is what must be said.
  1. It is heretical to be a pacifist
  2. Just war theory is a theory
  3. It is not the responsibility of the governed to determine what is the correct actions of elected leaders unless what they are doing is immoral.
Basic moral principles concerning the topic at hand.
 
40.png
mosher:
Without getting political as this is a Moral Theology area this is what must be said.
  1. It is heretical to be a pacifist
  2. Just war theory is a theory
  3. It is not the responsibility of the governed to determine what is the correct actions of elected leaders unless what they are doing is immoral.
Basic moral principles concerning the topic at hand.
Well, shoot. That just throws out any accountability of the government to the people unless a member is involved in sexual escapades or somesuch, don’t it?
 
Mosher,

I just looked at your profile. Since your occupation is a Knight of Columbus perhaps you would consider enlisting in the service of your country. You are the right age.
 
Via Dolorosa said:
“Naturally, the common people don’t want war, but they can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. Tell them they are being attacked and denounce the passifists for lack of patriotism and endangering the country. It works the same in every country.”

Herman Goering
Hitler’s Reichsmarschall
Nuremberg trials

Any thoughts on this?

I thank God every day that He gave the people of this country the divine guidance to elect president Bush in our hour of need and to re-elect him to keep us on the right track. Amen!
 
If I may offer a couple of thoughts.

It may be useful to do a little research on the historical precedents to the Iraq war situation. Research the battle of Lepanto in 1571 (aka Venetian Turkish War of 1570-73); Amazon has several books on the subject and they can be purchased cheaply. Don’t know if you remember the ship, Andrea Doria, which sank some years ago. I always thought it was named after some opera singer. Turns out that Andrea Doria was one of the heros of the battle of Lepanto. There is a great book, that you can get for cheap on Amazon: “Dictionary of Wars” by Kohn.

There was the battle of Vienna 1683.

And there is the history of battles against the Barbary pirates, “Jefferson’s War – America’s First War on Terror 1801 - 1805” by Joseph Wheelan.

All of these can be researched on line. The point is that there are important historical precedents to what is going on today.

Second: With respect to Iraq’s participation in the terrorism attacks on the United States. Go to Google and look up “Iraq Buried Mig-25’s” and click on images. An entire squadron (18 planes) of the plane were buried and were undetected until a sand storm unveiled the tips of the vertical tails. If they could bury an entire squadron of these huge airplanes, what else could be buried out there???

Look up “Salman Pak”, and the jetliner which was there and used as a training aid for terrorists. Think about how difficult it would be for someone to break into an airliner cockpit and cut the throats of the pilots with box cutters, unless they had rehearsed and practiced the maneuver.

These are just a couple of the issues. But it worth doing actual research to have something more than just opinion.

In case you were wondering why I’m so passionate about this subject: if American Airlines flight 11 had been one wingspan lower, I would have been ingested into the starboard engine. I used to live up near the Pakistan - Afghanistan border. Been to Kabul twice. And I lived in Libya. So I have some first hand knowledge of the culture and issues involved in this war on terror.
 
40.png
wcknight:
Funding to attack Isreal is a far cry from involvement with 9/11.

PLUS Saddam has been removed from power. Give the country back to the Iraqis, let them handle their own nation building. Let them fight among themselves. IF they want a democracy, let them fight for it. IF they want an Islamic state, that is up to them.

Now that Saddam is gone, we need to leave asap. It is ridiculous that our troops have to pull 3 or 4 tours of duty over there. No one wants to join the service now that there is a war on, and no one wants our troops over there.

The Iraqis have a responsibility to fight for their own freedom. If they don’t want to fight for it, they don’t deserve it. Most of all at the very least they should be doing everything possible to root out insurgents and foreign nationals. For them to harbor terrorists or to allow foreign nationals to hide among them speaks volumes about where their sentiments are.

We have no business being still in that country. Bush wants people to think we are fighting terrorists over there, but what we are really doing is creating motivation for a whole new generation of more terrorists.

Attacking Iraq may have been marginally justified at best, staying in Iraq is just gross stupidity at its worst. But that’s what happens when you elect the village idiot.
If America were to leave it to the Iraqi’s, the country would either become Syria or Iran. These are the terrorists we are fighting now. They are foreign fighters!

I supported the war when we first went, but now I realize the war hawks may have been a little hasty in their deliberations and I think they failed to meet just war criteria (in the fact that the threat wasn’t, in hindsight, imminent.)

However, it is a misrepresentation of who Saddam was to say that he wasn’t a sponser of terrorism. Saddam paid $25,000 to Palistinian families for their sons to blow themselves up in Israel. Abu Nidal was trained there, Bin Laden spent time in Baghdad, al Zarquai (sp) also was treated in Iraq (when he lost his leg). Does this mean Saddam was linked to 9/11, NO. But does it mean we should have been concerned about him, YES.

I don’t like the terms “liberal” and “conservative” because they are just labels that detract from the truth. Did this war meet just war criteria? That’s a debatable point. At this point, I don’t think it did, but this is said with hindsight bias. Was Saddam a terrorist, absolutely. Am I dissappointed that the leadership of this country jumped hastily to its conclusions? Yes. The evidence at the time was convincing, now its been proven to be wrong.

Now the question is whether or not we stay. The Left likes to point to American deaths in the region and say that’s enough for us to pull out. The human toll of that would be astronomical, and the lives lost to this point would be lost in vain. We would find ourselves staring down another terrorist state. That we simply cannot have.

The radical left in this country, incidentally, is very much like the terrorists in philosophy. They believe they can bring parousia to earth through human institutions. That said, the right in this country tends to be too hawkish, negating truths about this country’s unethical dealings in the Middle East and always giving America the moral high ground.

Bush thought he was doing the right thing, and was mistaken. He is human and we all err. I would vote for him again in a heartbeat. We now need to stick it out in Iraq, or the lives we’ve already lost were lost for nothing.
 
40.png
wcknight:
Funding to attack Isreal is a far cry from involvement with 9/11.

PLUS Saddam has been removed from power. Give the country back to the Iraqis, let them handle their own nation building. Let them fight among themselves. IF they want a democracy, let them fight for it. IF they want an Islamic state, that is up to them.

Now that Saddam is gone, we need to leave asap. It is ridiculous that our troops have to pull 3 or 4 tours of duty over there. No one wants to join the service now that there is a war on, and no one wants our troops over there.

The Iraqis have a responsibility to fight for their own freedom. If they don’t want to fight for it, they don’t deserve it. Most of all at the very least they should be doing everything possible to root out insurgents and foreign nationals. For them to harbor terrorists or to allow foreign nationals to hide among them speaks volumes about where their sentiments are.

We have no business being still in that country. Bush wants people to think we are fighting terrorists over there, but what we are really doing is creating motivation for a whole new generation of more terrorists.

Attacking Iraq may have been marginally justified at best, staying in Iraq is just gross stupidity at its worst. But that’s what happens when you elect the village idiot.
Better than electing someone who got his donations from people who murder newborns.
 
40.png
mosher:
Without getting political as this is a Moral Theology area this is what must be said.
  1. It is heretical to be a pacifist
Can you reconcile this with the passage from the CCC:
2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.
And somewhat related but I’ll understand if you don’t think so:
2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.
Scott
 
Also, I thought this was funny however I’m not sure where it is from:

If you consider that there have been an average of 160,000 troops in the
Iraq theater of operations during the last 22 months, that gives a firearm
death rate of 60 per 100,000. The rate in Washington D.C. is 80.6 per
100,000. That means that you are 25% more likely to be shot and killed in
our Nation’s Capitol, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in
the nation, than you are in Iraq.

Conclusion: We should immediately pull out of Washington, D.C

Scott
 
Scott Waddell:
Also, I thought this was funny however I’m not sure where it is from:

If you consider that there have been an average of 160,000 troops in the
Iraq theater of operations during the last 22 months, that gives a firearm
death rate of 60 per 100,000. The rate in Washington D.C. is 80.6 per
100,000. That means that you are 25% more likely to be shot and killed in
our Nation’s Capitol, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in
the nation, than you are in Iraq.

Conclusion: We should immediately pull out of Washington, D.C

Scott
LOL! P.S. Washington D.C. is the bluest of the blue state as blue states go.

Conclusion? Democrats are dangerous!
 
40.png
wcknight:
It is ridiculous that our troops have to pull 3 or 4 tours of duty over there. No one wants to join the service now that there is a war on, and no one wants our troops over there.
During WWII, no one wanted to be in the Pacific fighting the Japanese. No one wanted to serve 4 tours of duty. The issue is not one of wants and desires, but one of duty and responsibility.
40.png
wcknight:
Attacking Iraq may have been marginally justified at best, staying in Iraq is just gross stupidity at its worst. But that’s what happens when you elect the village idiot.
I wonder if you feel the same way about us staying in Germany and Japan for so long after WWII, and after they had surrendered.
 
Yep, Washington lacks both morals and guns with which to defend themselves!
PS To all pacifists: What would you do if **you were on one of those buses in London today? **Who do you think defends all the pacifists? (hint- it isn’t other pacifists)
 
Via Dolorosa:
Mosher,

I just looked at your profile. Since your occupation is a Knight of Columbus perhaps you would consider enlisting in the service of your country. You are the right age.
That’s not nice. No need to get personal here. If we had a draft, It might make some sense. Since we have an all-volunteer army, your point is moot.
 
Scott Waddell said:
2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.

The key passage here is “without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies.” Clearly Iraqis rights were being violated. Clearly Iraq had an obligation to adhere to the ceasefire they signed. Clearly Iraq had an obligation to abide by UN resolutions.
 
I don’t think there is anything really wrong with being pacifist either. At any moment Jesus could have brought fury and vengeance down on earth and he didn’t…he turned the other cheek as he commanded us. I do realize that there were times in biblical history that God used violence as a means to justice but I also remember that God’s servants still had to repent from the violence they used…I think that on many occasions the ends justify the means, though not all.

SG
 
40.png
mosher:
Without getting political as this is a Moral Theology area this is what must be said.

Basic moral principles concerning the topic at hand.
Keeping with the moral principals of this thread:

Let’s say a man across town is physically and sexually abusing his wife, children and nieces and nephews in his house. We have proof of this. We try to negotiate with him. We give him about 15 warnings about improving behavior or else. We patrol the perimeter of his house, and he shoots at us. We are able to communicate with the others in the house and they want us to break down the door and free them and arrest this man.

Is it morally right to do so?

How is this any different from God’s point of view then what we did in Iraq with Saddam?
 
First of all about Iraq and WMD, I believe Iraq had/has WMD. We know Saddam used WMD against his own people. We also know he had over 10 years to hide or send them to his supporters like Syria or Iran. Let me ask you all if you had a warehouse of chemical or bio weapons and I gave you 10 years to hide them in a country the size of Texas or even send them to another neighboring area don’t you think you could get rid of any trace of the weapons? In fact we have found traces of these weapons.

Even Clinton and John Kerry said we had to remove Saddam from Iraq because of the nuclear and WMD threat from Iraq. Of course that was before Bush was in office. I guess Kerry and Clinton figured Saddam got rid of his weapons when Bush took office. (sarcasm)

Now, lets look at the Saddam-Al Qaeda link. Al Qaeda leader Zarqawi was in Baghdad before the Iraq war getting medical treatment from Iraqi hospitals with the support of Saddam. There is no doubt Saddam supported the terrorists who were responsible for 9/11 at least financially if nothing else.

Why do you think countries like France, Germany, and Russia were against the Iraq war? It’s because they were making money hand over fist from Iraq’s oil for food program. Saddam was taking money that was supposed to be for food and medicine for the poor people of Iraq and sending it to these countries in hopes of getting the sanctions lifted. That is why the UN is known as the “Useless Nations.”

I thank God every day that Bush is in office. Why do you think the terrorists are attacking places like Madrid Spain and London and not New York or Boston? It’s because we have made it very difficult for terrorist to do anything like that here because of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. These are the very things the liberals want to do away with. I am not saying it’s impossible for terrorists to attack us again, and I am not naiive enough to think that we won’t be attacked again, but I believe we have a higher level of security than any other country and it’s made it very hard for terrorists to operate in this country. I don’t believe we would have the same level of security with a liberal in charge.
 
40.png
qmvsimp:
Keeping with the moral principals of this thread:

Let’s say a man across town is physically and sexually abusing his wife, children and nieces and nephews in his house. We have proof of this. We try to negotiate with him. We give him about 15 warnings about improving behavior or else. We patrol the perimeter of his house, and he shoots at us. We are able to communicate with the others in the house and they want us to break down the door and free them and arrest this man.

Is it morally right to do so?

How is this any different from God’s point of view then what we did in Iraq with Saddam?
I’m assuming your point of view is to arrest the man and make him stand trial…sounds extremely familiar to what we did in Iraq. I’m of the frame of mind that Iraq is the RIGHT war at the RIGHT time. I’m definately not a fan of the quagmire theory…

SG
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top