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Shannon46
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God created the earth and everything in it, why be question about th universe.
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Bradski
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If there were only one religion, there’d be a lot less atheists. As it is, looking from the outside in, one can say that not all of them can be right, but all of them can be wrong.
It would just add further doubt into the mind of an agnostic if we were to discover countless other intelligent species each with it’s own belief system.
However…if we did, for example, receive contact from another civilisation that also beleived in God and had a similar story to tell regarding. their salvation, then I’d have some serious doubts about my position.
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tonyrey
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Justin_Swanton
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A few posters seem to think it not quite kosher to question the strangeness of the universe. I understand the point: if God is infinitely good and wise we can never have a reason to question - in the sense of cast aspersion on - the way He has done things.
But we can question in another way: examine His creation to better understand why He made it the way it is. This is all very traditional - the *Summa *is full of it. Questioning things like this, I have seen pieces of a jigsaw fitting into place: the universe is unimaginably large and yet we can live only in a tiny part of it: an area on a planet only about 10 km (7 miles) in depth. Compared to the scale of the Cosmos that is virtually nothing.
The mediaeval theologians, however, worked out the attributes of the resurrected bodies of the just, and it just so happens that those attributes are ***exactly ***what we will need to travel through and explore the universe. It’s too much of coincidence for me, and I like the conclusion - if you want to do serious science fiction you need Catholic theology.
Seeing the universe like this puts other things into perspective, like overturning the ‘superman’ mentality that has become so popular in PC games and big budget movies. We need to be aware of our own fragility, and how incredibly finely-balanced material conditions need to be for life to exist at all. We are not lords and masters of anything except perhaps some fragile creatures like ourselves that we can to some extent dominate.
But we can question in another way: examine His creation to better understand why He made it the way it is. This is all very traditional - the *Summa *is full of it. Questioning things like this, I have seen pieces of a jigsaw fitting into place: the universe is unimaginably large and yet we can live only in a tiny part of it: an area on a planet only about 10 km (7 miles) in depth. Compared to the scale of the Cosmos that is virtually nothing.
The mediaeval theologians, however, worked out the attributes of the resurrected bodies of the just, and it just so happens that those attributes are ***exactly ***what we will need to travel through and explore the universe. It’s too much of coincidence for me, and I like the conclusion - if you want to do serious science fiction you need Catholic theology.
Seeing the universe like this puts other things into perspective, like overturning the ‘superman’ mentality that has become so popular in PC games and big budget movies. We need to be aware of our own fragility, and how incredibly finely-balanced material conditions need to be for life to exist at all. We are not lords and masters of anything except perhaps some fragile creatures like ourselves that we can to some extent dominate.
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Bradski
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‘Brands’ of atheism? Do you know how many religions there are? Having so many, even if you were spiritually inclined, means it is virtually impossible to pick the right one. Life isn’t long enough to study all of them. If there were only one, it would tend to cut out the clutter.
That all religions are associated with spirituality is undeniable. And I appreciate that most have their own version of creation and offer a happy-ever-afterlife. But are you suggesting that all religions have a common truth?
And if we have countless other belief systems, then the problem of selecting the right one becomes infinitely more difficult.
If God exists, then He’d make himself known to all of his creation. Not just us here on this dust mote. So if an ancient civilisation from somewhere the other side of the galaxy arrived with a holy book that described God, the Son and the Holy Spirit and said, yep – you guys have got it right, it’s the same story everywhere, right across the universe, then I’d think about signing up.
But if they said there’s a common religion infusing the universe, with countless galaxies all believing the same thing, but you guys are spectacularly wrong, I’d still seriously consider signing up. But would you?
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norain
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Yes, I’d consider signing up. As a matter of fact, I think my version of religion is pretty much universal, which makes me unfortunately less Catholic. I consider myself pretty open.
As for the evidence for God, you’re swimming in it.
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colmywaykurtz
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You mean it wasn’t made for one intelligent species? How do we know it wasn’t? Nobody’s been out there and checked each and every planet for intelligent life, so how do we know it wasn’t?
Another thing we don’t know is whether there could be many worlds with life, but merely plant and animal life, with sentience limited to Homo sapiens, on Earth, in the system of Sol, in the Milky Way galaxy…we don’t know that THAT isn’t the case, either.
True, we don’t know that it IS, but neither has it been disproved.
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Bradski
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Well, if it was, we seem to have been given priority as He made us in His image. Then again, he might have done that with all other intelligent species, in which case they’re all going to look pretty much like us.
And He made the stars on the fourth day, after He made the earth, so we were first in and best dressed by the sound of it. They therefore couldn’t, all things being equal, be any more advanced than us.
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GEddie
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Not necessarily. God as Spirit means that the “image” is held by our rational soul/mind, rather than our physical somas. Any being possessing a rational mind would qualify even with radically different body engineering.
I doubt that our sort of head-hands-and feet architecture would have arisen on a planet whose physical conditions did not resemble ours.
At the same time, ISTM that our LORD becoming human in 6BC gives pride of place to human life, even if other minded races exist out there.
Shalom, ICXC NIKA
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Justin_Swanton
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On whether other intelligent species exist I have an argument of sorts, the validity of which requires that you accept the premise:
Everything that will concern us either in this life or the next has already been revealed to us by God (we know about the new heaven and earth, our state as resurrected beings, something about the angels, etc.)
Nothing in revelation mentions intelligent non-human living creatures.
Therefore intelligent non-human living creatures do not exist.
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colmywaykurtz
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So, in other words, you think we ARE the sole intelligent species in the universe? I don’t pretend to know, but I DO see that as a distinct possibility.
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norain
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I look at myself in the mirror and see myself as possibly the only human alive. Yes, that too is a distinct possibility.
At least until I get to look around me.
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Justin_Swanton
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Not really. I just see the possibility that something as important as aliens would have been revealed to us already, since in the next life we would certainly interact with them. Our dealings with angels is minimal yet we know their history and their different kinds: we will interact with them directly after the Second Coming.
It’s possible, of course, that God has decided to tell us nothing about intelligent aliens and that we will find out about them only in the hereafter, but I see a certain inconsistency in that approach.
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Justin_Swanton
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I’m looking around but I haven’t spotted a bug-eyed greenie yet.I look at myself in the mirror and see myself as possibly the only human alive. Yes, that too is a distinct possibility.
At least until I get to look around me.
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norain
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Once we have a catalog of all the stars in this and nearby 1000 galaxies, by which time we have sampled perhaps 0.000000001% of what is truly out there (I’m being ridiculously optimistic here) and found no life, then maybe, just maybe, you’re right.I’m looking around but I haven’t spotted a bug-eyed greenie yet.
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norain
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…and by that we have only talked about **this **universe.
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Alberti_Devoveo
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We cannot actually see (roughly) half the stars in our galaxy, as we are in the middle of the “pancake” that we call the Milky Way galaxy. And even seeing the stars that we do see, we cannot determine if there is life on the planet unless we actually travel there–this is the point of the Curiosity rover on Mars.
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dnar
Guest
We do live in a very strange universe indeed.
A simple look at our little planet would reveal many horrible things if created for us.
Why for instance is there so much death? Animals, such as lions or tigers cannot even live without killing another animal to eat it to live.
The animal kingdom is filled with brutality.
Humans have suffered and died for thousands of years with diseases that now have cures. Was this God that made the cure, or was it science that figured out to do this? For example, heart attacks, a 100% blockage in an artery will kill you. No matter how much prayer is said, they will die unless science intervenes with bypass surgery…
Why would God allow humans to die off by the millions from pneumonia just to now give us a vaccination that can prevent pneumonia?
And to the person that says this planet was definitely made for us, I ask what about all the poisons that are out there that kill us so easily?
Why is our universe so strange and deadly if created and designed for us?
Good question OP
A simple look at our little planet would reveal many horrible things if created for us.
Why for instance is there so much death? Animals, such as lions or tigers cannot even live without killing another animal to eat it to live.
The animal kingdom is filled with brutality.
Humans have suffered and died for thousands of years with diseases that now have cures. Was this God that made the cure, or was it science that figured out to do this? For example, heart attacks, a 100% blockage in an artery will kill you. No matter how much prayer is said, they will die unless science intervenes with bypass surgery…
Why would God allow humans to die off by the millions from pneumonia just to now give us a vaccination that can prevent pneumonia?
And to the person that says this planet was definitely made for us, I ask what about all the poisons that are out there that kill us so easily?
Why is our universe so strange and deadly if created and designed for us?
Good question OP
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Justin_Swanton
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An interesting subject that was looked at in this thread.
The dysfunctionality in this world can really only be explained as a consequence of Original sin. I said this earlier on:
Personally I don’t have a problem with a world of animal predation, viruses, and all the rest, being created as such right from the outset. With God, an effect may precede a cause in time, such as Mary’s Immaculate Conception, caused by the merits of Christ’s Passion which postdated it. The flaws in the natural order are a mirror image of the state of fallen human nature, and are caused by it, even though the sin of Adam postdated the creation of the world.
This mirroring in nature of the flaws of fallen humanity is in fact a very good thing, as it makes the natural world a perfect place of preparation for man’s true home in the next life. There are a number of ways it does that, most of which largely boil down to making it impossible for us to settle into a comfort zone on this earth. We can get by, but we can’t really find the happiness we seek, which raises the inevitable question of where it is to be found. It’s a kind of Cosmic balance: the current state of things neither quenches our desire for happiness nor fulfils it, which goes hand-in-hand with a God who hides himself sufficiently so we are free to disregard him, and yet leaves enough evidence of his existence so we are never truly justified in doing so. We are entirely free to seek our happiness in him or try to find it in something else. I find it fascinating the extent to which everything is balanced this way on a knife edge. God is a tightrope walker par excellence.
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Linusthe2nd
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It looks like most of us are like children " …we have piped and you have not danced, we have sung a durge and you have not cried…" Nothing satisfies us. If all the " evil " disappeared we would say " …how boring it all is, why can’t God put a little zing into things…"
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