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pig
Guest
Sure, but there are practical difficulties in finding the density of Cosmic dust or Stardust.
Packing density for dust sized particles is more important if I cannot find cosmic dust densities listed under common materials.
You could use talc dust, its light and is also a refractory material.
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pig
Guest
Good point, thats leaves us with 4.16 feet of dust on the moons surface, due to reduced gravity. Not sure how great a factor gravity is, the earth moon system travels tens of thousands of miles per hour in its orbit, much dust may just be colliding anyway.
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Bradski
Guest
My apologies to pig and Alberti. I misread the figures on the web page that pig had linked to after going to the one that I linked to.
They are accurate in repect to the first, but extremely high compared to the second.
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
I’ve wondered about that for some time. St John talks about the former things being done away with - pain, sickness, death - and all things being made new. The question then is: to what extent does God need to rebuilt the universe to be a suitable place for a redeemed and resurrected humanity?
Strictly-speaking, he doesn’t have to rebuild it at all. Pain, sickness, etc. are all removed from humans by the gifts given to the resurrected bodies of the just. With immortality, impassibility, subtlety and agility (and the Beatific Vision!) we can be perfectly happy and trouble-free in the universe just as it is.
We know that everyone must die, and all at once at the end of the world. This would seem to imply a destruction of the surface of the earth (without the planet itself being destroyed), followed by a rebuilding or recreation that leaves no trace of the former human habitation. The rest of the universe carries on as usual. The result is a humanity in its blissful, glorified state, and a natural order that remains pretty much as it is now - with non-human creatures living limited lifespans and dying as before, St John’s reference to there being no more death, sickness, etc. applying to humans only. The words ‘all’ and ‘every’ can have very anthropomorphic meanings in the Bible.
Alternatively, we could hypothesize a radical alteration of the laws of physics, chemistry and biology so that no trace of sickness, injury or death remains in any living thing, creating a natural paradise in which every biological entity lives forever and suffers and inflicts no harm. This scenario obviously requires a complete recreation of the universe, which then poses the question - why did God create the universe as it is, since humanity can have nothing to do with it in its present state?
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inocente
Guest
Other factors which may have a bearing include:
*]Assuming that the Earth’s current capture rate was the same over the last 4.5 billion years is a bit like saying there was a north wind today so there must have been a north wind every day for the last 4.5 billion years.
*]The drag of the Earth’s atmosphere sweeps in more dust than if it had no atmosphere.
*]Your calculation is for the Moon as if it was by itself. You must take account that a stomping big Earth is right next door.
*]The Moon’s surface is covered in craters. Each impact would have pushed a dust plume upwards, and with no atmosphere particles reaching escape velocity would have disappeared off into space.
*]Impacting objects might have contained frozen water or methane which would liquefy on impact and rain outside the impact zone.
*]The Moon always has the same side facing towards the Earth.
And so on.
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pig
Guest
If it was true that there should be, at most, 25 feet of cosmic dust on the moons surface.
But if there is only a few inches on the moons surface.
Working backwards we find that with only a few inches of dust the moon could be/is only;
15,333,333 years old [15 million years old] not 4.6 billion years old.
Now if;
4,600,000,000 years = radiometric age of moon
107,000,000 years = radiometric age of Tycho impact
then;
42.99 = ratio of moons age to Tychos impact age
divided into the new age of the moon 15,333,333 years old
= 365,672 years old Tycho impact, not a 107 million year old Tycho impact
If;
7620mm of dust in 4.6 billion years.
then;
4,600,000,000 years old moon
divided by 7620 millimeters [25 feet] thick dust layer expected
= 603,674 years to deposit one mm of dust
301,837 years to deposit 0.5 mm of dust on Tycho’s floor.
dust on Tycho crater estimated as 0.5 mm thick
But if there is only a few inches on the moons surface.
Working backwards we find that with only a few inches of dust the moon could be/is only;
15,333,333 years old [15 million years old] not 4.6 billion years old.
Now if;
4,600,000,000 years = radiometric age of moon
107,000,000 years = radiometric age of Tycho impact
then;
42.99 = ratio of moons age to Tychos impact age
divided into the new age of the moon 15,333,333 years old
= 365,672 years old Tycho impact, not a 107 million year old Tycho impact
If;
7620mm of dust in 4.6 billion years.
then;
4,600,000,000 years old moon
divided by 7620 millimeters [25 feet] thick dust layer expected
= 603,674 years to deposit one mm of dust
301,837 years to deposit 0.5 mm of dust on Tycho’s floor.
dust on Tycho crater estimated as 0.5 mm thick
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inocente
Guest
You may have missed my earlier post, here it is again:
Other factors which may have a bearing include:
*]Assuming that the Earth’s current capture rate was the same over the last 4.5 billion years is a bit like saying there was a north wind today so there must have been a north wind every day for the last 4.5 billion years.
*]The drag of the Earth’s atmosphere sweeps in more dust than if it had no atmosphere.
*]Your calculation is for the Moon as if it was by itself. You must take account that a stomping big Earth is right next door.
*]The Moon’s surface is covered in craters. Each impact would have pushed a dust plume upwards, and with no atmosphere particles reaching escape velocity would have disappeared off into space.
*]Impacting objects might have contained frozen water or methane which would liquefy on impact and rain outside the impact zone.
*]The Moon always has the same side facing towards the Earth.
And so on.
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pig
Guest
You may have missed my earlier post, here it is again:
Other factors which may have a bearing include:
*]Assuming that the Earth’s current capture rate was the same over the last 4.5 billion years is a bit like saying there was a north wind today so there must have been a north wind every day for the last 4.5 billion years.
*]The drag of the Earth’s atmosphere sweeps in more dust than if it had no atmosphere.
*]Your calculation is for the Moon as if it was by itself. You must take account that a stomping big Earth is right next door.
*]The Moon’s surface is covered in craters. Each impact would have pushed a dust plume upwards, and with no atmosphere particles reaching escape velocity would have disappeared off into space.
*]Impacting objects might have contained frozen water or methane which would liquefy on impact and rain outside the impact zone.
*]The Moon always has the same side facing towards the Earth.
And so on.
*]ok, sure I accept that. But you must be ready for the corollary, that the dust might have been in even greater density in space the closer you travel back in time to earths formation - considering that earth and the moon were formed from space dust and debris it has taken both apparently 4.6 billion years to bring down the levels of space dust around them to what it is observed to be today.
So lets add more dust here the further back in time we travel.
*]Makes little difference, I think, as the measurement was for dust entering the atmosphere not dust accumulating in the atmosphere. The moon lack of atmosphere would not reduce the dust approaching it.
*]Yes they are like giant bolas flying around each other through space. Or dancers …heres a song for you…
Learning new steps for Lanigan’s Ball.
She stepped out and I stepped in again,
I stepped out and she stepped in again,
She stepped out and I stepped in again,
Learning new steps for Lanigan’s Ball.
*]This is definitely a problem, as well as scattering dust it can bury it in the rocky subsurface. Of course you could always use a dated crater like Tycho, measure the dust depth, 0.5mm, and since it is a young impact and I cannot see too many craters in it you could extrapolate backwards and you’ll get only 0.03937 inches of cosmic dust on the moons surface in 4.6 billion years. Which is not what we find on the surface at all.
*]water or methane would quickly refreeze again under the surface or boil off into space on the surface. Mineralization and lithification of the cosmic dust on the surface would need the action of mineral rich liquid water for perhaps over 50,000 years.
*]Yes. There is a distance between both though. But you are right you’d expect to see more dust from collision on the side, right or left, which is perpendicular to the plane of the axis between both.
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Alberti_Devoveo
Guest
It is possible to get the density if (a) you read the papers in which these abundances are taken or (b) do the calculation yourself. Cosmic dust probably does not have an MSDS on it, since it is not a ‘common’ material, but assuming that it is the same as talc (which is not stone dust) because it is ‘light’ and also refractory is unscientific, which you are trying to be a little scientific here.
I still am extremely suspect at using earth-based materials data for a space-based material.
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inocente
Guest
That’s wild speculation. You could just as easily argue that dust levels rose over time as more and more objects have collided. Indeed the Wikipedia article says sources of interplanetary dust include asteroid collisions and cometary activity.
You also dismiss other factors using your gut feel alone. I don’t know much about this complex subject, and my impression so far is you probably don’t know much more.
But if you know anything about basic physics, you’ll know that no estimate is valid unless the level of uncertainty is stated. In this case it sounds like it’s going to be plus or minus one zillion percent, making your results meaningless.
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pig
Guest
:coffeeread: I gave a link to the elements most common in cosmic dust, and the size of dust particles, approx. The elements cover all the main refractory materials, magnesium, aluminium, silica, calcium and a few metals that we find in rock minerals here on earth.
Talc is a magnesium silicate and since cosmic dust probably does not have chemically combined oxygen and hydrogen along with its magnesium and silica it is probably lighter again than talc, and so its volume, or the depth of the dust per ton would increase even more. But this lightness could be countered by the other elements.
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
There is another possible explanation. Quoting Romans 8:20 again:For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
The current state of the biological world is a mirror image in the natural order of Original sin, as mentioned earlier in this thread. After the Second Coming, redeemed humanity will be free of all the consequences of sin - the ‘bondage of corruption’ - by the gifts God will grant to the resurrected body and soul. In other words, our basic natures will not change, but the perfect bliss of the next life, which concerns primarily our souls and in consequence our bodies, will be achieved by our natures being raised up to the supernatural level in a way they are not at present.
Now, the passage from Romans seems to imply that the non-human biological system will be affected in the same way, i.e. that just as the natural order echoes man’s fallen state in this life, so it will echo his glorified state in the next. So what we are looking at is a world in which disease, injury and death have been removed, in which creatures live without needing to prey on each other (the glorified human body will not need to eat, by the way), and so on. A kind of raising up of the natural order to the level where all physical and biological evil has been excluded. This will be done not by changing the basic natures of biological organisms, but by affecting them in a similar way our human nature will be affected.
Seen from this angle the non-living physical universe need not change at all. The basic laws of physics and chemistry remain as they are. At the physical level, there is nothing ‘evil’ about a sun going supernova, or meteorites hitting the moon, or anything else that involves the building up and breaking down of inanimate objects. The non-living universe can stay just as it is.
Everything said here is salvo iudicio Ecclesiae of course.
(And back to the moon dust, guys.)
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GEddie
Guest
Not really.There is another possible explanation. Quoting Romans 8:20 again:For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
The current state of the biological world is a mirror image in the natural order of Original sin, as mentioned earlier in this thread. After the Second Coming, redeemed humanity will be free of all the consequences of sin - the ‘bondage of corruption’ - by the gifts God will grant to the resurrected body and soul. In other words, our basic natures will not change, but the perfect bliss of the next life, which concerns primarily our souls and in consequence our bodies, will be achieved by our natures being raised up to the supernatural level in a way they are not at present.
Now, the passage from Romans seems to imply that the non-human biological system will be affected in the same way, i.e. that just as the natural order echoes man’s fallen state in this life, so it will echo his glorified state in the next. So what we are looking at is a world in which disease, injury and death have been removed, in which creatures live without needing to prey on each other (the glorified human body will not need to eat, by the way), and so on. A kind of raising up of the natural order to the level where all physical and biological evil has been excluded. This will be done not by changing the basic natures of biological organisms, but by affecting them in a similar way our human nature will be affected.
Seen from this angle the non-living physical universe need not change at all. The basic laws of physics and chemistry remain as they are. At the physical level, there is nothing ‘evil’ about a sun going supernova, or meteorites hitting the moon, or anything else that involves the building up and breaking down of inanimate objects. The non-living universe can stay just as it is.
Everything said here is salvo iudicio Ecclesiae of course.
(And back to the moon dust, guys.)
The law of entropy requires that all energy ultimately runs down, so ultimately, there will be no light, or warmth, or water or oxygen.
Even if our pneumatikon soma can be alive in such as environment (they can indeed); the rest of life cannot. It would also be an extremely uncomfortable existence even for resurrectional human life.
ICXC NIKA
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
True, everything will need some kind of propping up.
By definition a glorified body cannot be uncomfortable, but it would be rather boring to look around at a universe filled with nothing else but lumps of inert iron.
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aragonjohn1
Guest
- Beauty.
- God created everything for His Creature: Man ( and any other possibly intelligent life created to be with Him ) it makes sense that obstacles may be overcome in time since God told man "to go forth and multiply and subdue [earth] " or if man in the fulness of time is unable to completely do this their is Still Beauty ( which is also one of the aspects of God)
God Bless you
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GEddie
Guest
Well that’s nice to know
I wonder if pneumatikon soma can “see” without physical light; or how else could we look around??
Blessed Advent, ICXC NIKA
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
You’re forgetting one other gift of the glorified body: Clarity, similar to Christ’s body on Mount Tabor. With that kind of illumination one should be able to see quite far :yup:.Well that’s nice to know
I wonder if pneumatikon soma can “see” without physical light; or how else could we look around??
Blessed Advent, ICXC NIKA
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dchezik
Guest
I would like to volunteer for this experiment. I will try to impregnate 5 women under the full moon, 5 women under the new moon, and 5 women under a cloudy sky. To be certain the data are valid, I think I should repeat the experiment a month later. (or as many times as it takes.) The data will be analysed according to accepted statistical methods. I think the subjects can be selected randomly from the large numbers of nubile females in state beauty contests.
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GEddie
Guest
The lunar gravity is the same in all cases.
More important, even a Nobel prize wouldn’t be worth the sin.
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