A Violation of Free Will! (The Greatest Commandments)

[Think_About_It]

(From Dictionary.com)
Idiom
9.
of one’s own accord, without being asked or told; voluntarily: We did the extra work of our own accord.

(From the catechism)
1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might **of his own accord **seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” (GS 17 § 1).

(From the Holy Bible, Matthew 22:36-40 NIV)
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If God commands us to love God with all our heart etc., are we really doing it out of free will—that is of our own accord (without being told; without inducement)?

Likewise, if a Child is told that if he does not love his parents he will be beaten, and he decides to cooperate, does he really love his parents out of free will?

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

There is an important distinction between doing something voluntarily, and doing it ‘without being told,’ at least as you seem to mean it. If a friend says to you, “I’m a little short on cash; could you cover me for lunch today? It’ll be my treat after next pay day,” you are completely free to say yes or no. So it is with God. He wants that we all love one another, and tells us that we ought. But He will not force us to do so; at all times the decision totally ours to make. God’s not going to possess you, overriding your free will, and make you give food to the hungry or money to the poor.

However, in both cases (as with everything that we do), there are consequences to our actions. In the first example, if you tell your friend, “No, I don’t really want to buy you lunch. Our friendship isn’t worth those $6 to me; I just don’t care about you anymore,” then it will have certainly have an impact on your relationship. Similarly, mortal sin says to God, “No, your sacrifice on the cross isn’t worth anything to me; I just don’t care about You.” If you blow your friend off, he will react accordingly and break off the friendship. If you kick God out of your life, He will respect your decision and allow you to remove yourself from the peace and goodness of His presence.

P.S. What your quoted passage actually means is that we shouldn’t put a blade to anyone’s throat and say, “Convert, or I kill you.”

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[JRKH]

(From Dictionary.com)
Idiom
9.
of one’s own accord, without being asked or told; voluntarily: We did the extra work of our own accord.

(From the catechism)
1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might **of his own accord **seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” (GS 17 § 1).

(From the Holy Bible, Matthew 22:36-40 NIV)
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If God commands us to love God with all our heart etc., are we really doing it out of free will—that is of our own accord (without being told; without inducement)?

Likewise, if a Child is told that if he does not love his parents he will be beaten, and he decides to cooperate, does he really love his parents out of free will?

Short answer to your question is Yes.
Choices we make “by our own free will” are always and forever influenced by various (name removed by moderator)uts and by various consequences that will inveitably result from those free choices.

We choose to go to work, “of our own free will”, because there are consequences of our choosing NOT to go to work.

Peace
James

 

[ChadS]

(From Dictionary.com)
Idiom
9.
of one’s own accord, without being asked or told; voluntarily: We did the extra work of our own accord.

(From the catechism)
1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might **of his own accord **seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” (GS 17 § 1).

(From the Holy Bible, Matthew 22:36-40 NIV)
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If God commands us to love God with all our heart etc., are we really doing it out of free will—that is of our own accord (without being told; without inducement)?

Likewise, if a Child is told that if he does not love his parents he will be beaten, and he decides to cooperate, does he really love his parents out of free will?

The issue here is that you are assuming that God’s commandments are coersive and the second example you provide would be an example of a coersive commandment. In that case the love the parent asks for would not be freely given. It would be done with resentment to avoid a punishment.

Joyfully following God’s commandments ends with a reward given by God. I think a better example could be of a mother who instructs her little daugther to eat her vegetables. If she eats her vegetables she gets her desert. The mother tells her that her brother ate his vegetables and now he’s enjoying ice cream. The little girl says no I don’t want to eat vegetables. The mother says if you do this one thing you will get ice cream. The little girl still says no. After a while the mother says fine you won’t get any ice cream. No threats were made, no beatings just a gentle reminder that if you do this one thing you can have desert. But the girl using her free will stubbornly refused to eat her vegetables. The mother didn’t let her have any ice cream, but it was the daughter that actually deprived herself of it.

ChadS

 

[Think_About_It]

Short answer to your question is Yes.
Choices we make “by our own free will” are always and forever influenced by various (name removed by moderator)uts and by various consequences that will inveitably result from those free choices.

We choose to go to work, “of our own free will”, because there are consequences of our choosing NOT to go to work.

Peace
James

P.S. What your quoted passage actually means is that we shouldn’t put a blade to anyone’s throat and say, “Convert, or I kill you.”

And you make a distinction between a blade and eternal fiery torment… This isn’t just an invitation, it’s a command. We are being commanded to love God and told that it’s an invitation by apologists. Then God threatens eternal torment for those that don’t comply.

I understand there are consequences to actions which more or less inhibit the absolute freedom of our actions, but commands to love and threats to suffer eternally impinge on any true semblance of a freely chosen action. Yes, it’s free inasmuch as we can act this way or that, but the inducements are far from allowing us a completely free decision to love or reject God.

The issue here is that you are assuming that God’s commandments are coersive and the second example you provide would be an example of a coersive commandment. In that case the love the parent asks for would not be freely given. It would be done with resentment to avoid a punishment.

Joyfully following God’s commandments ends with a reward given by God. I think a better example could be of a mother who instructs her little daugther to eat her vegetables. If she eats her vegetables she gets her desert. The mother tells her that her brother ate his vegetables and now he’s enjoying ice cream. The little girl says no I don’t want to eat vegetables. The mother says if you do this one thing you will get ice cream. The little girl still says no. After a while the mother says fine you won’t get any ice cream. No threats were made, no beatings just a gentle reminder that if you do this one thing you can have desert. But the girl using her free will stubbornly refused to eat her vegetables. The mother didn’t let her have any ice cream, but it was the daughter that actually deprived herself of it.

ChadS

This example is conveniently non-analogous to our relationship with God. It’s more than not getting desert. It’s being sent to some remote place and being force-fed hot coals for the rest of your natural life for not eating vegetables. That kind of threat (implicit or explicit) does not allow for decisions to even approximate a free choice. We wouldn’t call it free if anybody created a real-life situation that was proportionally analogous to God’s position on free will.

“Daughter, child, you know that there are consequences for not eating vegitables. I commanded you to freely eat them and you didn’t. You know I can’t dwell with people that don’t eat vegetables, because that’s the way I wanted it. Therefore, you’re going to have to suffer at the expense of some tyrants hands because there are consequences for all actions. But don’t worry, the choice is totally yours…”

God’s free will would never pass for free will in the real world, so why do people pretend?

 

[MrZetterlund]

Well that’s the thing. You can CHOOSE whether or not you want to be subject to the authority of God. Jesus said “whoever so hears these sayings of mine, and does them is like a wise man” (vise versa) “He who does not is a foolish man.” Suggesting it is your choice to choose whether you will or not.

 

[ChadS]

This example is conveniently non-analogous to our relationship with God. It’s more than not getting desert. It’s being sent to some remote place and being force-fed hot coals for the rest of your natural life for not eating vegetables. That kind of threat (implicit or explicit) does not allow for decisions to even approximate a free choice. We wouldn’t call it free if anybody created a real-life situation that was proportionally analogous to God’s position on free will.

“Daughter, child, you know that there are consequences for not eating vegitables. I commanded you to freely eat them and you didn’t. You know I can’t dwell with people that don’t eat vegetables, because that’s the way I wanted it. Therefore, you’re going to have to suffer at the expense of some tyrants hands because there are consequences for all actions. But don’t worry, the choice is totally yours…”

God’s free will would never pass for free will in the real world, so why do people pretend?

Your base assumption so far in this discussion is that God sends people to hell. That is not the Catholic understanding of how people end up in hell. People basically send themselves to hell for the choices and decisions they make in their lifetime. God desires all to enter into fellowship with him, but there are some who refuse that fellowship and do as they please, like the foolish man mentioned by MrZetterlund.

ChadS

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Short answer to your question is Yes.
Choices we make “by our own free will” are always and forever influenced by various (name removed by moderator)uts and by various consequences that will inveitably result from those free choices.

And I assume that it is you who gets to define what is an “Inhibition” to “absolute freedom” what things, “impinge on any true semblance of a freely chosen action.”

God wishes for us to Love Him and to desire to be with Him. He does not wish, nor does He will any human being to go to Hell and be tormented forever. Therefore the two great commandments revolve around Love and not Fear.

Now - Fear is a beginning - and it is the beginning for many people. Fear of Hell.
The Bible says that “Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom”.
As we Grow in Wisdome and knowledge of God, we stop fearing Him, and we stop fearing Hell because fear is replaced with Love and Love dirves out fear.

This is where you lose your way. You look at the beginnings of wisdom - the beginnings of the Journey toward God and then you assume that is all there is.
If you are willing, I would cahlleng you to read the book linked in my signature. Then see if you still feel the same way.

Peace
James

 

[Think_About_It]

Your base assumption so far in this discussion is that God sends people to hell. That is not the Catholic understanding of how people end up in hell. People basically send themselves to hell for the choices and decisions they make in their lifetime. God desires all to enter into fellowship with him, but there are some who refuse that fellowship and do as they please, like the foolish man mentioned by MrZetterlund.

ChadS

Okay, let’s say that the daughter that didn’t eat her vegetables wasn’t sent to this remote place of suffering by her parents. Let’s say she freely chose to be there by disobeying her parents (showing, obviously, that she didn’t love them). Does this make for a more satisfying parallel?

And I assume that it is you who gets to define what is an “Inhibition” to “absolute freedom” what things, “impinge on any true semblance of a freely chosen action.”

You don’t consider it a freely chosen action either. You’re saying that you think it is because you want to defend God. But you don’t consider the daughter/vegetables scenerio to be freely chosen do you? If you do, you surely have a warped sense of free will.

 

[R_Daneel]

Your base assumption so far in this discussion is that God sends people to hell. That is not the Catholic understanding of how people end up in hell. People basically send themselves to hell for the choices and decisions they make in their lifetime. God desires all to enter into fellowship with him, but there are some who refuse that fellowship and do as they please, like the foolish man mentioned by MrZetterlund.

The Catholic “understaning” is not supported by evidence. No one would freely “choose” to be tormented forever, if they were clearly presented with that option as a choice. Clearly, if there is a hell, someone will have to drag the damned, kicking and screaming into it. If you wish to say that God does not personally performs this act, then he outsourced it to his “comrade”, the Satan. But no one, not even Satan can perform anything without God’s explicit or implicit approval. That would mean that Satan has greater powers than God.

 

[dcdurel]

The Catholic “understaning” is not supported by evidence. No one would freely “choose” to be tormented forever, if they were clearly presented with that option as a choice. Clearly, if there is a hell, someone will have to drag the damned, kicking and screaming into it. If you wish to say that God does not personally performs this act, then he outsourced it to his “comrade”, the Satan. But no one, not even Satan can perform anything without God’s explicit or implicit approval. That would mean that Satan has greater powers than God.

People who go to hell to so because they, freely reject God, because they reject His teachings. They hate His teachings because they think if they follow them they will be unhappy.
Thus they do NOT want to be with God in heaven, where they will have to do His will, thus they freely choose hell, where they won’t have to do His will. God forces no one to go to hell against their will. People choose hell because they are in rebellion agaist God and His teachings and they would hate living in union with Him, loving Him and loving others.

 

[ChadS]

People who go to hell to so because they, freely reject God, because they reject His teachings. They hate His teachings because they think if they follow them they will be unhappy.
Thus they do NOT want to be with God in heaven, where they will have to do His will, thus they freely choose hell, where they won’t have to do His will. God forces no one to go to hell against their will. People choose hell because they are in rebellion agaist God and His teachings and they would hate living in union with Him, loving Him and loving others.

I think this as a response to R Daneel’s comment is spot on and I couldn’t have written a better one myself. I do believe this is the Catholic position and no outsourcing to the Devil takes place. The Devil can tempt and entice people and tell them nothing will happen to them, but he can’t drag anybody to hell they have to willingly follow him there.

ChadS

 

[Thing]

Okay, let’s say that the daughter that didn’t eat her vegetables wasn’t sent to this remote place of suffering by her parents. Let’s say she freely chose to be there by disobeying her parents (showing, obviously, that she didn’t love them). Does this make for a more satisfying parallel?
.

Lets say you harm your neighbour and argue with him. Do you remain in his house fuming at him or do you leave as quickly as possible. Can you stand to be around the neighbour when you wrong him? Can you even stand to remain in his house, can you stand the idea of entering his property, even?
Is’nt the Scripture giving the solution to this natural outcome, you must love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might: otherwise and likewise you will not be able to tolerate being in His presence or on His property. You will storm out of His place and the only place outside of heaven is hell or purgatory.

 

[R_Daneel]

People who go to hell to so because they, freely reject God, because they reject His teachings. They hate His teachings because they think if they follow them they will be unhappy.
Thus they do NOT want to be with God in heaven, where they will have to do His will, thus they freely choose hell, where they won’t have to do His will. God forces no one to go to hell against their will. People choose hell because they are in rebellion agaist God and His teachings and they would hate living in union with Him, loving Him and loving others.

I am unable to reject God, because he never convinced me that he exists, and he never gave me a listing of “do’s” and “don’t’s”. I do not accept your word, or the word of the CC as authorities of what God’s demands might be. Why should I? You are all fallible beings. If God would be “love”, as you insist, then I would be happy to be with him. But God’s actions (and the lack of them) are overwhelming evidence that is anything but love. Some of the teachings in the Bible are sensible, most of them are not. But, then again, the Bible is just a human concotion, full of nonsense.

If you think that anyone would go willingly to be subject to eternal torture and torment, then you should think again.

 

[ChadS]

I am unable to reject God, because he never convinced me that he exists, and he never gave me a listing of “do’s” and “don’t’s”. I do not accept your word, or the word of the CC as authorities of what God’s demands might be. Why should I? You are all fallible beings. If God would be “love”, as you insist, then I would be happy to be with him. But God’s actions (and the lack of them) are overwhelming evidence that is anything but love. Some of the teachings in the Bible are sensible, most of them are not. But, then again, the Bible is just a human concotion, full of nonsense.

If you think that anyone would go willingly to be subject to eternal torture and torment, then you should think again.

If this is all nonsense and nothing but a human concoction then why bother discussing any of this? I don’t argue with people about the existence of fairies and leprechauns either.

People also don’t willingly destroy their livers yet they drink and lead a life that does. People don’t willingly destroy their hearts yet many will eat fatty foods and not exercised and only stop when the damage is too late.

Right now people can say they wouldn’t willingly choose hell or what to submit to eternal damnation yet people also live their lives and make choices that can lead them to hell.

ChadS

 

[JRKH]

I am unable to reject God, because he never convinced me that he exists, and he never gave me a listing of “do’s” and “don’t’s”. I do not accept your word, or the word of the CC as authorities of what God’s demands might be. Why should I? You are all fallible beings. If God would be “love”, as you insist, then I would be happy to be with him. But God’s actions (and the lack of them) are overwhelming evidence that is anything but love. Some of the teachings in the Bible are sensible, most of them are not. But, then again, the Bible is just a human concotion, full of nonsense.

Seems funny that someone as knowlegable as yourself would wish to spend time with us “fallible” people who believe in all of this “nonsense”.
Of course I must admit that I am at a loss to how a God, who has never been able to convince you that he exists IS able to convince you by, “overwhelming evidence that (He) is anything but love”. hhhmmmmm

If you think that anyone would go willingly to be subject to eternal torture and torment, then you should think again.

If you think people don’t make the free choice to enter into torture and torment, directly leading to death, every day, perhaps YOU should think again.
Does the person who freely chooses to smoke not also freely choose the torments of disease later on?
Does not the Addict who freely chooses to start using addictive drugs also freely choose the tortures and torments that result from the use of those drugs?

In both of the cases above, the negative results of the actions are widely known and publicized by a benevalent (that is loving) government and society. The many positive benefits of NOT engaging in these activities are also widely known. Yet people choose to reject these “teachings” every day and instead, freely Choose “torture and torment” over health.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
And I assume that it is you who gets to define what is an “Inhibition” to “absolute freedom” what things, “impinge on any true semblance of a freely chosen action.”

I love it when someone selects one small portion of one of my posts to respond to and take issue with. It gives me the impression that they have no answer or problem with the rest of the post. I will make that assumption here as well and hope that you will take me up on the challenge of reading, “The Fulfillment of All Desire”.

As to the “eating vegetables” scenerio, to tell you the truth I was not following it. That was something between you and Chad. My post addressed teh matter from a different perspective. However - to address the issue of Parental discipline,
I grew up in a household where there were consequences for disobedience. Some of those consequences involved “corporal punishment” administered by a Loving Parent. At the time, I can tell you that each of us thought our parents were “mean”, but later discovered how Truly Loving our parents really were.

And If I was a willful and disobedient child who died as a result of my disobedience to them, my death would be made from my own free will too.
As a true life example, some people I know of had a large family with several boys. They lived on the shores of Lake Superior in MN and when there were storms on Lake Superior the waves would crash over and along the piers of the Ship canal. These boys knew full well that they were to stay away from this place during storms. But they disobeyed their parents (and the authorities) by going down and “chasing the waves”. As a result 3 of the five boys were drowned.
These boys did not knowingly “Choose to die” but they, by their free choice to disobey their parents, did die.

Now you will probably find much fault with this true scenerio as you will with any scenerio presented. But certain facts remain. The boys knew they were being disobedient. They also knew that what they were doing was dangerous. They chose to do so anyway and died as a result.

God says Love me, obey me and Live eternally in happiness. Deny me and disobey the laws that lead to Life, and Die. And with that death, with that rejection of Love, embrace the opposite of Love which is Hate, and so embrace, for yourself the fruits of your choice of hate over Love.

Peace
James

 

[R_Daneel]

If this is all nonsense and nothing but a human concoction then why bother discussing any of this? I don’t argue with people about the existence of fairies and leprechauns either.

Correct. And you don’t do that, because practically no one believes those, and if some poor lunatic would believe in them, they do not try to push their misguided view down on the a-leprechaunist’s throat, and do not wish to create a society where their ideas are codified into law.

People also don’t willingly destroy their livers yet they drink and lead a life that does. People don’t willingly destroy their hearts yet many will eat fatty foods and not exercised and only stop when the damage is too late.

Right now people can say they wouldn’t willingly choose hell or what to submit to eternal damnation yet people also live their lives and make choices that can lead them to hell.

Very true again. People do all sorts of stupid things, destroying their lives, when they should know better. However, while anyone can learn about the destructive effects overeating and the abuse of alcohol, there is no evidence that there is a natural process that some “sinning” will lead to damnation, and that the sinner will go willingly and happily to accept their fate of eternal torment.

 

[R_Daneel]

Seems funny that someone as knowlegable as yourself would wish to spend time with us “fallible” people who believe in all of this “nonsense”.

Chalk it up to concern and a wish to help you.

If you think people don’t make the free choice to enter into torture and torment, directly leading to death, every day, perhaps YOU should think again.
Does the person who freely chooses to smoke not also freely choose the torments of disease later on?
Does not the Addict who freely chooses to start using addictive drugs also freely choose the tortures and torments that result from the use of those drugs?

In both of the cases above, the negative results of the actions are widely known and publicized by a benevalent (that is loving) government and society. The many positive benefits of NOT engaging in these activities are also widely known. Yet people choose to reject these “teachings” every day and instead, freely Choose “torture and torment” over health.

Read the post directly above. My reply there is applicable to your objections.

 

[JRKH]

Chalk it up to concern and a wish to help you.

Why do you wish to help me?? It always seems odd to me that those who believe in “Nothing” after death think they need to help thos of us who believe in"Something" after death.
If you are right, then my belief in The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is in vain and nothing will happen after death. It isn’t as if I need to be “converted” to belief in “nothing” for “nothing” to happen.

Of course if you are wrong…That is another matter.

If you are wrong and we are right, then it is our duty to tell of the Good God in the hopes of converting non-believers to belief in God.
We do this out of our belief in Something. Something that won’t happen, or will happen negatively for you if you don’t believe (eternal life with God or seperated from Him).

You wish to “help us” believe something (that is "nothing"that will happen in the same way whether we believe it or not.

Read the post directly above. My reply there is applicable to your objections.

Mine were not so much “objections” as clarifications. You made the statement that, “If you think that anyone would go willingly to be subject to eternal torture and torment, then you should think again.”
My post merel clarifed the error in that statement. Some people are more than willing to choose “eternal torment” in the form of smoking and addictions to various drugs and alchohol.
Some people will also make their own and others lives miserable, and a torment, by choosing to live totally self-centered lives and seeing in others nothing but ill will. These people are easily recognized by their speach and their outlook on life. It is usually manifested in the attitude of, “do it to him before he does it to me”. The sad thing is that such people are never at peace, never have enough, any happiness is but fleeting and every bit of news or event in their lives is greeted with some sort of negative comment.
This is a lifestyle of “eternal torment” that these people choose for themselves as well.

Peace
James