A wacky new objection to praying to saints

  • Thread starter Thread starter RiderOnTheClouds
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ignore it. The person is grasping at straws, and if they’re this far deluded there’s little chance any kind of rational discussion will change their mind.

If you really want to address it:

Necromancy is the attempt to summon and control the dead. Catholic prayers to the Saints are entreaties for help. No effort to summon or control, only requests. It is also not undertaken via occult magic, it’s done via simple prayer.

This persons is a poor, misguided soul. Pray for them, but ignore this nonsense.
 
This objection is the result of playing “the telephone game,” where a message becomes distorted as it gets repeated.

You have contributed to this distortion as well, although I assume you did not intend to. Let’s start with your claim and work backwards.

“Gilbert gives a quote from Augustine.” In fact, Gilbert does not give a quote from Augustine. He quotes one F. Graf, who was writing about Augustine. Graf cites Augustine’s work City of God, book 10, chapter 21, and claims that here Augustine lays the"theoretical foundation for the cult of the saints." Gilbert takes Graf’s claim as fact and runs with it.

Here is the relevant text of the chapter of City of God which Graf is referencing:

" CHAPTER 21 – OF THE POWER DELEGATED TO DEMONS FOR THE TRIAL AND
GLORIFICATION OF THE SAINTS, WHO CONQUER NOT BY PROPITIATING THE
SPIRITS OF THE AIR, BUT BY ABIDING IN GOD.

The power delegated to the demons at certain appointed and well-adjusted seasons, that they may give
expression to their hostility to the city of God by stirring up against it the men who are under their
influence, and may not only receive sacrifice from those who willingly offer it, but may also extort it
from the unwilling by violent persecution; – this power is found to be not merely harmless, but even
useful to the Church, completing as it does the number of martyrs, whom the city of God esteems as all
the more illustrious and honored citizens, because they have striven even to blood against the sin of
impiety. If the ordinary language of the Church allowed it, we might more elegantly call these men our
heroes. For this name is said to be derived from Juno, who in Greek is called Here, and hence, according
to the Greek myths, one of her sons was called Heros. And these fables mystically signified that Juno
was mistress of the air, which they suppose to be inhabited by the demons and the heroes, understanding
by heroes the souls of the well-deserving dead. But for a quite opposite reason would we call our martyrs
heroes – supposing, as I said, that the usage of ecclesiastical language would admit of it – not because
they lived along with the demons in the air, but because they conquered these demons or powers of the
air, and among them Juno herself, be she what she may, not unsuitably represented, as she commonly is
by the poets, as hostile to virtue, and jealous of men of mark aspiring to the heavens.

Virgil, however, unhappily gives way, and yields to her; for, though he represents her as saying, “I am
conquered by Æneas,” Helenus gives. Æneas himself this religious advice: “Pay vows to Juno: overbear
Her queenly soul with gift and prayer.”

In short, I would say that Mr. Gilbert should examine the source for his claims, and then move on. It doesn’t really warrant any other response.
 
worshipping
It all depends on whether the prayer constitutes worship. If we did worship dead people, that would be a sin.

On the other hand, if we believe that the faithful departed are alive in Christ, and that he grants them the ability to hear our prayers, then praying to them is not worship but rather an aspect of our communion with them.

Many prayers conclude with the phrase “through Christ our Lord.” I think this is significant. If we petition the saints for their prayers or intervention, well of course they only have the ability to pray or intervene because God has granted them those abilities. If the saints are in perfect communion with Christ, then they can act through him, if it is in accord with his will. So let us ask them for their prayer and intervention through Christ our Lord.
 
Last edited:
Because if we worshipped the saints, we would be committing the grave sin of idolatry. They Catholic and Orthodox Churches both strongly condemn idolatry, as they do the sin of necromancy.

The saints in heaven are as alive as you are. We simply ask them to pray for us, one big family and we all love and pray for one another.

Honestly, if you were in heaven tomorrow, before the throne of God, would you not be praying for everyone you love on earth?
 
How should we respond to the accusation given here that Catholics and Orthodox effectively commit necromancy by worshipping the spirits of the Nephilim?
Laughter? That’s such a ridiculous claim, I don’t think there is any other response.
 
There is no Salvation without Temptation. So if we are troubled by these critics maybe we have our own fears and doubts about it. I don’t think we have to rebuke this accusation. Let it be and say the truth “No, it’s not like that, we do not worship the Nephilim”. Many of the early Christians were accused of witchcraft when God was performing miracles with their bodies to convert souls. People did not believe it wasn’t witchcraft and the Christians were killed for faith. Others accused Christians of being vampires because of the Eucharist. It is as Jesus said - the world will not be nice to us until the end.

It will not get better. I take it as a good sign that God is with us so we are being singled out as a religion and criticized constantly. Just be nice and turn the same cheek back again. Whoever wants to believe will simply just stop harassing Christianity and convert.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top