A "what if" question . .

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im_wildrose

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A friend and I were talking and she posed an interesting hypothetical question. This conversation actually happened weeks ago and has absolutely NOTHING to do with Pope Francis. I am completely confident in God’s will and know that He works in ways we can’t possibly understand, but regardless, we found this question an interesting fodder for conversation and I am curious what others think.

My friend asked if it could ever happen that we get a pope who is “wrong”. That is, could a pope ever be elected who starts doing things that he shouldn’t/can’t, like major changes (women priests, homosexuality, etc.). And then, if that would/could happen, what would we do? What is the responsibility of the laity? The clergy? The cardinals?

She and I discussed it a bit but never reached any conclusions really. What do you think?

Deo Juvante, Jen
 
God would prevent him from teaching error in faith and morals, up to and including a sudden heart attack.
 
The Church has had false Popes (anti-popes) and corrupt Popes. Don’t you think that it is interesting that they never tried to change essential teachings on faith and morals?
 
Jesus promised to be with His Church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Since Jesus is Incarnate Truth Who can neither deceive nor be deceived, I have no right to doubt Him. He is more than able to provide us with good shepherds. Yes there have been bad priests and laypeople that have caused scandal and strife, but they don’t win, do they?
 
These answers were kind of what I was thinking too. It did give us pause though for a moment. So, has any pope ever had that “sudden heart attack” or some indication that he would have done something seriously wrong had he not been stopped? Again, just curious from a historical perspective.

Deo Juvante, Jen
 
You need a better escape hatch than sudden cardiac arrest. Popes have free will. I presume they can blurt our “In my capacity as Pope I declare Jesus wasn’t the son of God!” just as easily as another man.

I hate to say it—I consider the sedevacantists absolute cretins—but I would think it preferable to conclude that the Pope isn’t doing what he seems to be doing, or that he wasn’t the Pope. I don’t think, for example, the church should worry if it every gets a pope who slips in to simple dementia. Such a Pope could not fulfill the conditions for infallibility. Sleep-talking doesn’t count either, I wager.

It shouldn’t need saying, if people knew the history of topics like slavery, usury, monarchy, free speech and the Jews, but if everything that a pope has ever said was unchangeable was in fact unchangeable, we’d already have crossed the line many times. The absolute guarantee is a tightly limited one.
 
Have there been any instances that a pope tried to change anything and wasn’t able to by an act of God that stopped him?
 
In my reading of history and those Popes considered “bad” or whose election is in question, usually they are too busy consolidating temporal power and wealth to worry too much about changing the basics of faith and morals. Of course, way back then no one at all was aggitating for making homosexual “marriage” legal or things liker that athough there were practicing homosexuals, abortions, and likely some women who thought things would be better if they could be priests. :rolleyes:

A “bad” pope today would probably be more interested in those issues because he might think that is the way to win popularity and so gain power and wealth. Since it is less likey that such a Pope would be removed by force (which *has *happened in the past) we might be reduced to praying for cardiac arrest or a lightning strike.

I think though that the current process for electing a pope is an effective way to ensure that we don’t end up with a womenpriest fan as pope. Such a person would never become a cardinal in the first place. And certainly wouldn’t be able to muster 2/3 of the vote!
 
=im_wildrose;10487137]A friend and I were talking and she posed an interesting hypothetical question. This conversation actually happened weeks ago and has absolutely NOTHING to do with Pope Francis. I am completely confident in God’s will and know that He works in ways we can’t possibly understand, but regardless, we found this question an interesting fodder for conversation and I am curious what others think.
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My friend asked if it could ever happen that we get a pope who is “wrong”. That is, could a pope ever be elected who starts doing things that he shouldn’t/can’t, like major changes (women priests, homosexuality, etc.). And then, if that would/could happen, what would we do? What is the responsibility of the laity? The clergy? The cardinals?
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She and I discussed it a bit but never reached any conclusions really. What do you think?
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Deo Juvante, Jen
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NO!

Church Doctrines and Dogma’s can never be changed!

As to a “bad [peronal example]” Pope. We’ve had some in the past 2000 YEARS; but not once did they teach a Heresy that was sustained. God’s In charge.

READ **Matthew 16:15-19 **and you’ll understand why.🙂
 
but not once did they teach a Heresy that was sustained
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The “sustained” is critical. That a Pope can side with heresy to some degree is shown in Liberius’ relationship to Arianism. See ewtn.com/library/answers/popeguil.htm

As for women priests, it’s clearly not going to happen for a long, long time, if ever. If it happened anytime soon, it would split the church in pieces. I for one can’t imagine that any of these women who feel called to priesthood are actually called by God. They’d be called to sow disobedience, schism and, basically, disaster.

That said, there’s a long record of church teachers, even popes, saying things can’t happen that, well, did. Review papal statements on slavery, usury, the perfidy of the Jews, democracy, free speech and so forth and you can only conclude that teaching—as distinct from the core truths of the faith—can make very tight turns indeed! This sort of analysis is regularly dismissed by many traditionalists but, with respect, they don’t know the sources.

Many theologians would argue that while the impossibility of female priests has nearly been raised to the level infallibility, it has not actually been so designated. (Benedict has said it doesn’t need to be so defined, because it’s already part of the universal and ordinary magisterium.) It is not entirely clear to many why although Jesus appointed only male Jews, at least some of whom were married, as apostles, the part of that action that is permanent and unchanging is the part about them being male.
 
=TimSpalding;10488955]The “sustained” is critical. That a Pope can side with heresy to some degree is shown in Liberius’ relationship to Arianism. See ewtn.com/library/answers/popeguil.htm
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As for women priests, it’s clearly not going to happen for a long, long time, if ever. If it happened anytime soon, it would split the church in pieces. I for one can’t imagine that any of these women who feel called to priesthood are actually called by God. They’d be called to sow disobedience, schism and, basically, disaster.
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That said, there’s a long record of church teachers, even popes, saying things can’t happen that, well, did. Review papal statements on slavery, usury, the perfidy of the Jews, democracy, free speech and so forth and you can only conclude that teaching—as distinct from the core truths of the faith—can make very tight turns indeed! This sort of analysis is regularly dismissed by many traditionalists but, with respect, they don’t know the sources.
Click to expand...
Many theologians would argue that while the impossibility of female priests has nearly been raised to the level infallibility, it has not actually been so designated. (Benedict has said it doesn’t need to be so defined, because it’s already part of the universal and ordinary magisterium.) It is not entirely clear to many why although Jesus appointed only male Jews, at least some of whom were married, as apostles, the part of that action that is permanent and unchanging is the part about them being male.
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The obligation to HEAR and OBEY is LIMITED to Faith and Moral Matters ONLY:)
 
Evania said:
Have there been any instances that a pope tried to change anything and wasn’t able to by an act of God that stopped him?
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Yes, apparently by a miraculous conversion. Pope Vigilius (537-555) ascended to the papacy with the help of Empress Theodora, on the understanding that he would nullify the Council of Chalcedon and make the heresy of monophysitism (which taught that Christ‘s human nature was subsumed in His divine nature at the Incarnation) binding on the universal Church.

The empress waited a year after Vigilius‘ election, then reminded him of his promise. He flat out refused. She couldn‘t do much about it because Emperor Justinian was an orthodox believer. However, the monophysite party was strong in the East and the emperor, wanting to appease them, demanded that Vigilius condemn a few of their enemies‘ questionable but largely forgotten writings. Vigilius again refused: The Pope, not the Emperor, gts to decide who‘s a heretic and who isn‘t.
He spent the rest of his papacy in prison, defending the Council of Chalcedon…
christian-history.org/pope-vigilius.html#sthash.XSBAlc1r.dpbs
 
We have been extremely lucky lately in that we have had a run of very good Popes. Such was not always the case however and we have had some that were truly horrific:eek:

Most of them though seemed more concerned withtheir own lifestyle than imposing anything on anyone else. And if sourcs can be trusted they had plenty of help in their endeavours from corrupt Cardinals, Bishops, Priests and other religious.

Yet we are still here.
 
=TimSpalding;10489623]I think I missed your point.
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SORRY:blush:

Only and ONLY WHEN the Pope or the Magisterium Teach Officially on matters pertaining
to FAITH issues and or Moral issues are the Teaching obligatory on ALL.

Other topics are, and can be taken as opinions only.

Hope this clarifies it for you? If not let me know and I’ll try again.

God Bless,
pat/PJM
 
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