A woman at work

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on_the_hill

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So there’s this woman at work. She’s been there for almost four years.

She’s divorced and has custody of her two kids.

She is a receptionist/clerical/administrative assistant and is also, at best, barely mediocre at her job.

I hired her sort of against the better judgement of a couple other people in the office. They were right, I was wrong.

I’ve been close to firing her several times.

Today she told me that she interviewed for a position elsewhere in our organization. She said they liked her and they want to call me for a reference.

I might commit a sin when I am not entirely truthful when I talk to them. I need her gone. The office needs her gone. The only reason I haven’t fired her yet is because she’s a genuinely nice person and every time I’m just about to pull the trigger she completes a task marginally well.

So I’m going to do my best to tell the truth but absolutely will not say **anything **at all that could jeopardize her chances. Like chronic absenteeism, chronic inability to perform routine tasks without making mistakes, forgetfulness,
 
on_the_hill said:
(Snip) So I’m going to do my best to tell the truth but absolutely will not say **anything **at all that could jeopardize her chances. Like chronic absenteeism, chronic inability to perform routine tasks without making mistakes, forgetfulness,
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Whoever is thinking of hiring her is depending on your to be truthful about her suitability for the job. You say that you need her gone. The office needs her gone. Why should you inflict her upon the other office?

If you’re being asked for a reference then I think you have a duty in conscience to tell them about her “chronic absenteeism, chronic inability to perform routine tasks without making mistakes” and her inadequate performance in general.
 
Do you think she will be a better fit in the other department?
I live in a Right to Work state. Currently I don’t have a job. Let’s change the scenario slightly. The new place where I want to work calls my present employer.
What he has the right to say is how long I have worked for him, and nothing more.
He cannot say what a fantastic employee I am, that I am dependable, and trainable. He cannot tell the prospective employer that no matter where I am placed I learn can be relied on to learn quickly and that I am willing to work in any of the company’s different departments. [These are true statements, overheard by supervisors in a company that is no longer in business].
In other words, whether I am a fantastic employee or a liability, the company can’t say one way or the other. I don’t have to give a reason for leaving, nor does it have to give a reason for layoffs.
The question comes down to how you think this particular employee will fit in the new environment? Can you write a relatively neutral letter concerning work performance without loss of personal integrity? Is there a skill that can be highlighted without minimizing employee deficiencies? Pleasant telephone voice while letting the new office know that office rules need to be established and enforced straightaway?
 
Well, if she doesn’t get the job I’m going to fire her soon. 😦 I either bend the truth a little or put a single mother out of work.

She might fit in better in the new environment. It’s a different job description.
 
on_the_hill said:
So there’s this woman at work. She’s been there for almost four years.

She’s divorced and has custody of her two kids.

She is a receptionist/clerical/administrative assistant and is also, at best, barely mediocre at her job.

I hired her sort of against the better judgement of a couple other people in the office. They were right, I was wrong.

I’ve been close to firing her several times.

Today she told me that she interviewed for a position elsewhere in our organization. She said they liked her and they want to call me for a reference.

I might commit a sin when I am not entirely truthful when I talk to them. I need her gone. The office needs her gone. The only reason I haven’t fired her yet is because she’s a genuinely nice person and every time I’m just about to pull the trigger she completes a task marginally well.

So I’m going to do my best to tell the truth but absolutely will not say **anything **at all that could jeopardize her chances. Like chronic absenteeism, chronic inability to perform routine tasks without making mistakes, forgetfulness,
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This is what is hard about being a supervisor. But honestly it’s actually really easy. You should have let her go. And you should regardless if she gets the job or not. Passing a poor employee off to another department is bad management. It will damage your reputation as well.
 
From your post, it sounds like you work in a sizable organization. Does this lady have any performance reviews on file from the previous four years? Large organizations usually have these, in order to determine raises as well as to protect themselves if they need to fire someone. I would think if so, these would already contain details of her work performance that the potential new manager could review, given that she is just transferring within the same organization and not leaving one employer for another.

It also seems like over four years there would be more than one reference that would be giving a report on this lady - or are you the only one?

Having spent much of my career in large organizations, I have seen a lot of situations where an employee did not get along with one boss or in one department, but when shifted to another department, did better. Sometimes this is due to a change in the type of work, sometimes it is just a personality or expectations clash. This woman may even have indicated that she wants to change departments because she is not happy where she is, for any number of reasons (type of work, personalities, the fact that she likely is aware you have not been pleased with her work).

You want to be prudent when you talk to the other reference (certain things that you say could come back to haunt you especially if this lady didn’t get the new job and then you ended up having to terminate her) but you also don’t want to lie. So I’d suggest that you try to give as balanced a picture as you can of the woman’s strengths and weaknesses, without offering too much unsolicited information. She must have some strengths as you said she does complete tasks well (however marginally) from time to time. You don’t have to paint her as Employee of the Year, but at the same time, if you say she is the worst ever, the other manager will wonder why you didn’t just fire her, and may decide you’re the one with the problem.
 
on_the_hill said:
Well, if she doesn’t get the job I’m going to fire her soon. 😦 I either bend the truth a little or put a single mother out of work.

She might fit in better in the new environment. It’s a different job description.
Click to expand...
From what you described I had the impression that she was a bad employee, is it that or I does she not have the skills for her current position and that’s why she is failing?
 
on_the_hill said:
Well, if she doesn’t get the job I’m going to fire her soon. 😦 I either bend the truth a little or put a single mother out of work.

She might fit in better in the new environment. It’s a different job description.
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Your first post says they like her. That’s a plus for her.
A different job description means that it may fit her actual skills better than where she is now.
Look at the job description itself. Based on how well you know her (leaving out any reference to home life) objectively assess what observable skills she may have that fit that position.
Do mention, without getting into detail, that she might benefit from knowing upfront specific job expectations.
For example, I worked for a factory that required a doctor’s note with the specific words “unable to work” for every absence. Two unexcused absences in a 30 day period led to a warning. Two more and it was out the door. This was known from day 1. No, I have a babysitting problem, etc.
 
on_the_hill said:
So there’s this woman at work. She’s been there for almost four years. , chronic inability to perform routine tasks without making mistakes,
forgetfulness,
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Dear Joe, in regard to Mary: To be honest, I don’t think that her current position asks enough of her. She is, unfortunately, asked to perform a lot of monotonous tasks that the position requires and that sometimes results in a level of performance with which I am sure she herself would not be satisfied. I’m pretty certain I might find myself in the same position if I was in her place.

However, if I had the opportunity within this section, I would give her more responsibility and I am convinced that she would rise to the task.

The new job role is one in which I believe she would take the opportunity to show what she is capable of doing, especially as the role requires X, Y and Z. If she is fortunate enough to be offered the position I think it would be a benefit to all parties concerned.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
From what you described I had the impression that she was a bad employee, is it that or I does she not have the skills for her current position and that’s why she is failing?
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It’s both. She didn’t have enough of the skills when she started. I told her we’d train her.

We’ve sent her to classes, different people on staff have worked with her (including me) and it just doesn’t seem to stick.

So now she says we told her we would train her and haven’t done so. 🤷

She’s basically used up all of her leave time for the rest of the calendar year. But, at the advice of legal counsel, I shouldn’t use her absenteeism as a reason to fire her because she could come back with an ADA claim (she claims to have problems with depression.)

Yes, I have quite a few “journal” entries I wrote to myself that detail her poor work performance. I’ve talked to her about it a couple times.

Bottom line is, I’ve fired people before. I hate doing it. I’m trying not to because I each time see it as a failure on my part if I can’t get everyone to perform at a top level.

But if she can move on, then we both avoid the trouble. (Frankly, looking back, I think the people who sent her to us were trying to unload her also (from another part of the overall organization))
 
make it an amicable split and be mindful that she has children dependent on her
 
on_the_hill said:
It’s both. She didn’t have enough of the skills when she started. I told her we’d train her.

We’ve sent her to classes, different people on staff have worked with her (including me) and it just doesn’t seem to stick.

So now she says we told her we would train her and haven’t done so. 🤷

She’s basically used up all of her leave time for the rest of the calendar year. But, at the advice of legal counsel, I shouldn’t use her absenteeism as a reason to fire her because she could come back with an ADA claim (she claims to have problems with depression.)

Yes, I have quite a few “journal” entries I wrote to myself that detail her poor work performance. I’ve talked to her about it a couple times.

Bottom line is, I’ve fired people before. I hate doing it. I’m trying not to because I each time see it as a failure on my part if I can’t get everyone to perform at a top level.

But if she can move on, then we both avoid the trouble. (Frankly, looking back, I think the people who sent her to us were trying to unload her also (from another part of the overall organization))
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That sounds like you can’t give her to another department. Attendance issues and not taking responsibility for her training…
If I was a supervisor in another department and hired her and she struggled, I’d remember you pawned her off on me…
 
Is this the same woman who brings you coffee every day?

When they ask for a reference you say :

She began working in my department on such and such date.
If they ask would you hire her again? Tell the TRUTH.
No, I would not. She’s not a fit in this department. Hopefully she will fare better in yours.

Do not be deceptive.
If you tried to train her and she still doesn’t get the job done, how is that on you?
Do not be deceptive unless you want the manager of THAT other department to paint you in the same light. “so and so passed off a problem onto my department.”

No bueno.
 
on_the_hill said:
No. That person is fed up with her and wants me to get rid of her.
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I still wouldn’t be deceptive just to get rid of her. That says more about your integrity.
You hired her, you can let her go.
But you can’t pawn her off on some other, unsuspecting department. I’m telling you, it will not be forgotten. And you’ll pay a high price in the long run.
 
You can say you are not comfortable giving business references…

If you don’t have written and signed performance reviews, you need to especially remove yourself. Anything negative said is subjective without signed documentation.

A journal is not the same…of course she can say she was not trained or informed, if her signature is not on anything. It will boomerang to lack of training.

And now you cannot fire her. it is opening the door now for her to claim retaliation based on lack of loyalty.
 
It’s an awful position to be in. I feel for you. That said, I work in a large institution in which this problem is rampant. Sub-par workers are passed around from one department to another. And it’s awful. A co-worker had a secretary like this and had finally had enough. She attempted to fire her and instead, HR gave the secretary early retirement. Throughout her entire career she was rewarded for awful work. And while she was still working there, my co-worker’s workload was HUGE because she was doing her own job and the job of her secretary.

It’s hard to fire a single mother – I get that. But there are also plenty of other single mothers out there who need jobs and are willing to work hard.
 
pianistclare said:
Is this the same woman who brings you coffee every day?

When they ask for a reference you say :

She began working in my department on such and such date.
If they ask would you hire her again? Tell the TRUTH.
No, I would not. She’s not a fit in this department. Hopefully she will fare better in yours.

Do not be deceptive.
If you tried to train her and she still doesn’t get the job done, how is that on you?
Do not be deceptive unless you want the manager of THAT other department to paint you in the same light. “so and so passed off a problem onto my department.”

No bueno.
Click to expand...
This is a good answer.
It goes back to what I mentioned early, working in a Right to Work State.

Just give the dates for which she has worked for you.
No comments about her ability, other than based on job description your thinking she might be a better fit in the new department (if that’s your true assessment).
 
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