A word on Pope Francis for my fellow Traditionalist

[TimothyH]

So let us join forces with our Holy Father. Let us understand where he is coming from and understand the dire situation we are in. Let us understand that our fight was lost and the only way we can bring about tradition and prudence again is not by disruption but by an organic evolution of the faithful and society back in to it. Let us be patient, pray and let God act through us and the Church as we work toward our primary goal to BRING PEOPLE IN TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

–Eufrosnia

I try to make an effort to think with the mind of the Church rather than despairing over the fact that the Church doesn’t think with my mind. When I think I know better than the Church what should take place, which way it should evolve, etc, I presume to know better than Christ.

At the end of the day it all comes down to the virtue of humility - knowing my proper place. I am not here to change the Church. The Church exists to change me.

Whenever I see a “Problem” in the Church, I stop and ask myself if the problem is really not within me rather than the Church.

-Tim-

 

[Lormar]

The very wise person I am married to said that instead of criticizing our Holy Father, we should be praying an extra rosary for him every day.

 

[Lormar]

I try to make an effort to think with the mind of the Church rather than despairing over the fact that the Church doesn’t think with my mind. When I think I know better than the Church what should take place, which way it should evolve, etc, I presume to know better than Christ.

**At the end of the day it all comes down to the virtue of humility - knowing my proper place. I am not here to change the Church. The Church exists to change me.

Whenever I see a “Problem” in the Church, I stop and ask myself if the problem is really not within me rather than the Church. **

-Tim-

 

[Kakieanne]

The very wise person I am married to said that instead of criticizing our Holy Father, we should be praying an extra rosary for him every day.

How beautiful and very wise.

 

[Rich_C]

Traditionalist need to understand, the pope IS Christ represenative on earth, he holds the keys of heaven and what is bound on earth is bound in heaven and what is loosed on earth id loosed in heaven. Pope Francis has done nothing against doctrin.
The RED is dispinlinary and he has the right to followe it or not, his decision.

Traditionalist need to take heed of Christ own words,
“get behind me satan, you are thinking as man not as God”

Do you actually know any trads? Because it doesn’t sound like it. Just sayin’.

 

[opus101]

i’m new…what did the Pope do exactly?

He did absolutely nothing wrong. People misunderstood a few things, that’s all. They don’t understand that the Pope (and Bishops as well) can grant dispensations for unusual circumstances.

They’re so bound up by their own take on Canon Law that they are choking, and we will have to pray to Our Lady, Untier of Knots for them.

Dispensations are granted when, for the spiritual good of those involved, a tweaking of law would be the best course of action. I’m the product of a dispensation - my parents received a dispensation to be married in the Catholic Church (before my father’s conversion).

The Holy Thursday Mass at the jail was not one that emphasized the Catholic priesthood, it was a gathering of wayward youth - therefore the general sense of the celebration (to serve one another) was brought out.

 

[McCall1981]

He did absolutely nothing wrong. People misunderstood a few things, that’s all. They don’t understand that the Pope (and Bishops as well) can grant dispensations for unusual circumstances.

They’re so bound up by their own take on Canon Law that they are choking, and we will have to pray to Our Lady, Untier of Knots for them.

Dispensations are granted when, for the spiritual good of those involved, a tweaking of law would be the best course of action. I’m the product of a dispensation - my parents received a dispensation to be married in the Catholic Church (before my father’s conversion).

The Holy Thursday Mass at the jail was not one that emphasized the Catholic priesthood, it was a gathering of wayward youth - therefore the general sense of the celebration (to serve one another) was brought out.

All of this is true.

The additional concern is that other Priests will take advantage of the situation in order to introduce more “novelties” into their liturgies, or have less respect for liturgical rules. What the Pope did was not technically wrong because he can dispensate himself, but some of us are concerned that his example will be interpreted poorly by others.

 

[opus101]

All of this is true.

The additional concern is that other Priests will take advantage of the situation in order to introduce more “novelties” into their liturgies, or have less respect for liturgical rules. What the Pope did was not technically wrong because he can dispensate himself, but some of us are concerned that his example will be interpreted poorly by others.

I realize this, but I’m sure that clarification will come on the subject.
The Pope has not yet been holder of the keys for 3 weeks, it’s WAY too early to predict things. I have a suspicion that he will prove to be a “sign of contradiction” like Our Lord.

IMO, those who would use this as an excuse to reject whatever canon laws they wish will not be very successful. Those who are of that mindset have already been doing that for 40years or more. There will really be no difference at all. They already do that.

 

[McCall1981]

I realize this, but I’m sure that clarification will come on the subject.
The Pope has not yet been holder of the keys for 3 weeks, it’s WAY too early to predict things. I have a suspicion that he will prove to be a “sign of contradiction” like Our Lord.

IMO, those who would use this as an excuse to reject whatever canon laws they wish will not be very successful. Those who are of that mindset have already been doing that for 40years or more. There will really be no difference at all. They already do that.

The bolded is a very good point.

In a way I think it was kind of unfortunate that Holy Week came right after he was elected. I think if he had been elected in say July, then we had almost a whole year to get to know him, the foot washing wouldn’t seem like such a big deal.

I’m hoping that now that Holy Week is over, we’ll get a more calm period to get to know him.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hi. I don’t think there is anything wrong with being a traditional Catholic and loving Pope Francis. Is not the tradition of the Church to be loyal and respectful towards the Pope. I love the Traditional Mass yet I also love Pope Francis.
I think what is concerning is that this whole fiasco of the Traditionalists being annoyed towards Pope Francis is awfully bad for their reputation as it makes them out to seem all focused on the exterior. Does not the Traditional Mass emphasize God as number one? Hence I don’t understand why people who say they have such respect towards God are so disrespectful towards the Pope??
God chose this Pope. All Catholics should be obedient to him and respect him with a great respect.
It’s very sad how some people are behaving and it’s certainly not a good example for the Traditionalists.
However I am glad that you the original poster can see the beauty of Pope Francis.

God bless us all

I’d also like to know exactly what Traditionalists said what.

I may be old and cynical, but I’m traditionalist myself, and I don’t say OR THINK anything like what the MEDIA ‘reports’ ‘traditionalists’ saying.

I’m sorry but I don’t just need a GRAIN of salt reading the breathless media reports on how ‘traditionalists HATE Pope Francis.’ I would need a SEA FULL. I’m certain that the vast majority of the quotes are doctored, and truncated, and that the way questions are phrased have also led to confusion.

Look, 8 years ago when Pope Benedict was elected, remember how supposedly the LIBERALS were totally calling him a menace, a throwback, an insensitive clod who was totally rigid and unbending? PAH. Did most of the people who post here and identify as liberals say anything like that really? They didn’t. And now it’s 8 years later, and, aren’t most ‘liberals’ and ‘conservatives’ equally appreciate of Pope Benedict? They are.

So the media back then was playing to try to sow dissent among liberals (who even if they HAD been worried quickly realized that Pope Benedict was not the ‘monster’ the media painted him to be.)

It’s harder this time because instead of the media painting Pope Francis as a ‘monster’ (as they did with Benedict), THIS time the media is fawning over him and trying to paint TRADITIONALISTS as dissenters and monsters (which they are not).

Luckily again, most traditionalists are as smart as liberals and realize that the media polls and opinion and articles are not about the Church, or even about the Pope himself, but about trying to SOW DISSENT, to set one member of the Church against another, to try to make one group feel ‘better’ about itself at the expense of making the other group ‘look worse’.

We aren’t going to fall for it.

Thank goodness that many of our liberal brothers and sisters who were victims of this kind of media circus 8 years ago with Pope Benedicxt are among the first to realize the game that’s being played now and instead of roiling the waters are being charitable enough (especially after being acquainted with so many traditionalists on these forums) not to race into ‘accusation mode’, but are instead urging the same things we traditionalists are: Wait, pray, think, and trust in God. Don’t jump to conclusions, and remember that we are all really wanting the same thing : To preach the FULL gospel and to save souls.

 

[FAB]

Do you actually know any trads? Because it doesn’t sound like it. Just sayin’.

What I said goes for Trads or anyone else. THere are too many wanting to pull in thier own direction and not together. From the critiques on these post that become obvious very quickly.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

The very wise person I am married to said that instead of criticizing our Holy Father, we should be praying an extra rosary for him every day.

Pray?..Hmmm…

Well, OK. I’ll try it.

 

[Wulfgar]

One of the biggest ways we can shoot ourselves in the foot is to divide ourselves into traditionalists/modernists or conservatives/liberals.

The Church’s teachings are ONE. There is not one set of doctrines for conservatives and one for liberals. There is only one set of doctrines, and it is for CATHOLICS.

There may be disagreements about things which are not doctrine, such as limited aspects of the liturgy, emphasis on different parts of theology, etc.

But to think that there are legitimate ‘parties’ in the Church in regards to adherence to her teachings is wrong. It confirms the outside world’s misunderstanding that Church doctrine can be altered or challenged like government policies.

One time I heard a recorded talk by Archbishop Fulton Sheen where he gave the Greek etymology of diabolic, which essentially means “to split apart”. Ever since, I have seen many situations where division is an obstacle to the will of God.

Good post. Lately I have been extremely concerned because I have been forcibly shifting my thinking around back and forth from traditionalist to modernist. I am sick of having to worry over which side of the spectrum God sits. Traditionalists are violently angry with modernists, and most modernists probably don’t even know that traditionalists exist. For crying out loud, people, we’re all Catholic; we’re supposed to be “One”.

 

[JReducation]

Good post. Lately I have been extremely concerned because I have been forcibly shifting my thinking around back and forth from traditionalist to modernist. I am sick of having to worry over which side of the spectrum God sits. Traditionalists are violently angry with modernists, and most modernists probably don’t even know that traditionalists exist. For crying out loud, people, we’re all Catholic; we’re supposed to be “One”.

I think that the term “Modernist” is thrown around too liberally. It seems to be applied to anyone who does not subscribe to the TLM, the catechism of Pius X, or anyone who accepts Vatican II, the CCC and the right of the popes to change policies and procedures.

I actually have a funny anecdote about that one. Someone once called me a Modernist, which I laughed at, because I realized that the person did not understand the meaning of the word.

I then explained to the person that the reason that our little community broke off from the larger Franciscan community was because we wanted to return to living the Rule of Penance written by St. Francis and Pope Gregory IX in 1221 and to the Capuchin Constitutions of 1565. You can’t get more traditional that than.

We own one car that is shared by three houses. Each of us owns one habit, one pair of slacks and a clerical shirt, one pair of blue jeans and a t-shirt for grunge work. We have no telephone, only one cell phone and one computer that is used for ministry. There is an old TV. We fast and abstain Wed and Fri as is prescribed in the early rule and we observe fasting and abstinence for the three lents. We vow absolute and unquestioning obedience to the pope, the local bishop, the superior and St. Francis of Assisi.

Our ministry is to live and work among the voiceless: the immigrant poor, the elderly and terminally ill, the disabled and the unborn child and parents.

We pray the LOTH five times a day, we have daily mass, rosary, adoration. Every member of our community is Brother, as was the case in the early days. There is no observable distinction between an ordained and a non ordained friar. Only the superior is Father. We ordain only the number of men that we need for our sacramental needs and those of the ministry, as was the case in 1221.

When I explained these things to the person he then called me “iconoclastic”

There was no way to win. I had a choice between being a modernist and iconoclastic, all because I denied one of brothers permission to celebrate the TLM for the laity. Go figure. Now a superior cannot give orders, because you’re a modernist.

In my experience, the term is used too liberally.

 

[Saints_Alive]

i’m new…what did the Pope do exactly?

He imitates Christ and it’s a shock to many.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I think that the term “Modernist” is thrown around too liberally. It seems to be applied to anyone who does not subscribe to the TLM, the catechism of Pius X, or anyone who accepts Vatican II, the CCC and the right of the popes to change policies and procedures.

I actually have a funny anecdote about that one. Someone once called me a Modernist, which I laughed at, because I realized that the person did not understand the meaning of the word.

I then explained to the person that the reason that our little community broke off from the larger Franciscan community was because we wanted to return to living the Rule of Penance written by St. Francis and Pope Gregory IX in 1221 and to the Capuchin Constitutions of 1565. You can’t get more traditional that than.

We own one car that is shared by three houses. Each of us owns one habit, one pair of slacks and a clerical shirt, one pair of blue jeans and a t-shirt for grunge work. We have no telephone, only one cell phone and one computer that is used for ministry. There is an old TV. We fast and abstain Wed and Fri as is prescribed in the early rule and we observe fasting and abstinence for the three lents. We vow absolute and unquestioning obedience to the pope, the local bishop, the superior and St. Francis of Assisi.

Our ministry is to live and work among the voiceless: the immigrant poor, the elderly and terminally ill, the disabled and the unborn child and parents.

We pray the LOTH five times a day, we have daily mass, rosary, adoration. Every member of our community is Brother, as was the case in the early days. There is no observable distinction between an ordained and a non ordained friar. Only the superior is Father. We ordain only the number of men that we need for our sacramental needs and those of the ministry, as was the case in 1221.

When I explained these things to the person he then called me “iconoclastic”

There was no way to win. I had a choice between being a modernist and iconoclastic, all because I denied one of brothers permission to celebrate the TLM for the laity. Go figure. Now a superior cannot give orders, because you’re a modernist.

In my experience, the term is used too liberally.

Modernism is not about being traditional though. It is a philosophical position that shows in attitude toward doctrine and religion in general. To be a modernist, one might have to break out of traditional thinking but anyone who breaks from tradition is not necessarily a modernist (or remains in it free from modernism for that matter).

So hypothetically, one might be very traditional but still modernist…no?

Also, in a sense it does make sense for most of us to be influenced by modernism because we do live in a culture steeped in the philosophical positions that did give rise to modernism in the first place (like Kant, Hagel, Darwinism etc). So while it is used liberally, at times it may indeed fit liberally.

(Not calling you a modernist here btw. Just pointing out that there might indeed be many modernist who do follow traditions as well)

 

[JReducation]

Modernism is not about being traditional though. It is a philosophical position that shows in attitude toward doctrine and religion in general. To be a modernist, one might have to break out of traditional thinking but anyone who breaks from tradition is not necessarily a modernist (or remains in it free from modernism for that matter).

So hypothetically, one might be very traditional but still modernist…no?

Also, in a sense it does make sense for most of us to be influenced by modernism because we do live in a culture steeped in the philosophical positions that did give rise to modernism in the first place (like Kant, Hagel, Darwinism etc). So while it is used liberally, at times it may indeed fit liberally.

(Not calling you a modernist here btw. Just pointing out that there might indeed be many modernist who do follow traditions as well)

But now we’re getting too far from what the poster was saying and to which I was responding. My point was not to take the term so seriously, as it is usually used incorrectly.

 

[floresco]

I am a traditionalist and I spend a fair bit of time on traditionalist forums. I have seen some traditionalists doing the bad things that we are accused of in this thread. As long as people make sure they do not claim that all traditionalists are this way, it is a just accusation.

As far as I’m concerned, traditionalists ought to be characterized by our love and loyalty toward the Pope. That is the tradition of the Church.

(People should avoid using the term “modernist” as it has been in this thread. It does not mean people who prefer the OF. As has been said, it refers to a specific philosophy and it is a heresy.)

 

[OraLabora]

But now we’re getting too far from what the poster was saying and to which I was responding. My point was not to take the term so seriously, as it is usually used incorrectly.

Sigh… I agree, I’ve been called “modernist” on this forum simply because I like modern church architecture. It doesn’t help that I like to hear and sing Gregorian chant in a modern church building, because I like to do it for the Ordinary Form Mass, which only confirms I’m “modernist” to some.

Catholics need to quit the labels. It is divisive. We are all part of the Body of Christ by virtue of our baptism.

 

[ajecphotos]

For years, I did not really bother about any of the popes. Now, all of a sudden, I love the new pope! What an impact he has on me! Why! Why after not bothering all these years?

People, please, let’s get behind our new pope and celebrate his position. He seems like such a genuine, humble man.

I pray that God will fill him with the Holy Spirit to guide him on the path of the truth. May God help him and stand by him. God Bless Him.