A works based Salvation? Eph 2:8-9

[RSiscoe]

“One does not possess “Grace” God gives grace to humanity and they either accept it or reject it. Grace is of God and we can’t possess it. It is his disposition towards mankind”

That is what many Protestants have been taught, but that’s not what the Bible teaches. Grace is more than just a “disposition” of God towards us. Grace is the infusion of Divine life into the soul, which makes us “partakers of the Divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4), and “a temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God” (1 Cor. 6:19).

The truth is much more beautiful than the so called reformers would have us believe. God does not just “change our status”, he changes us. That is why the Bible calls a Christian “a new creation in Christ Jesus”: “IF any man be in Christ a new creature, the old things have passed away; behold all things are new” (2 Cor. 5:17). A true Christian (that is, a Catholic) receives the spirit of God and becomes a “new creation” through the infusion of Divine life, and the forgiveness of sins, which takes places when one is “born again of water and the spirit” (John 3)

When one has been reborn, their “status” has not only been changes, they have been changed, and the Spirit of God dwells within them - “the spirit of God dwells in you” (Romans 8:9). Since this Spirit is freely given, it is called grace. Above you stated that grace is not something that we possess, but the Bible says we do: “the excellent grace of God in you. Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift” (2 Cor. 9: 14-15).

Indeed, grace is both an “unspeakable gift”, as well as something that is “in” a Christian, just as the Bible says.

 

[RSiscoe]

Berean:

Baptism is not the same as being born again. Being born again is being born from above and only God can provide this spiritual birth. The condition of being “born again” is dependent upon the individual to accept the grace provided by God.

Only God can cause a person to be born from above? True, and He does this through baptism. The washing of the water in the sacrament signifies the reality that takes place within the soul. Through baptism we are born again and made a member of the Body of Christ. “for in one spirit were we all baptized into one body” (1 Cor 12:13). It is through baptism that we become a member of the body of Christ. “For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ” (Galatians 3:27). The book of Romans also speaks of Christians as being “baptized into Christ” (Romans 6:3).

Being “born again of water and the Holy Ghost” (John 3:5) is baptism. That is why, just after Jesus taught that we must be born again, or “born from above”, He and His disciples went out and baptized. (John 3:22).

Not only does the Bible teach that we are born again, and made a member of the Body of Christ, through baptism, but this is what has been taught ever since.

St. Justin Martyr: “Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: ‘In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,’ they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.’” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 61:14, 150 AD)

St. Irenaeus of Lyons: “For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: `Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’” (Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment 34 [A.D. 190])

St. Augustine: “baptism washes away all, absolutely all of our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought; whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against two letters of the Pelagians 3:3-5 [420AD]).

Now maybe we can understand why the Bible goes so far as to tell us that “baptism saves us” (1 Pet 3:21).

You have chosen the name “Berean”. Therefore, I would urge you to act like the “noble Bereans” and search the scriptures to see is what you have been taught is so (Acts 17). If you are sincere in your search, as they were in theirs, you will find that what the Catholic Church teaches is true. Therefore, as the Bereans did – “go thou and do likewise”.

 

[RSiscoe]

Berean:

The mere fact that Luther and Calvin reformed was evidence of their ability to think for themselves. What you have said is contrary to history.

Let me provide a little more history to support what I claimed. You tell me if these quotes fit your understanding of baptism:

St. Augutine: “The Lord has determined that the kingdom of Heaven should be conferred only on baptized persons. If eternal life can accrue only to those who have been baptized, it follows, of course, that they who die unbaptized incur everlasting death” (St. Augustine, circa 400AD)

St. Augustine: “The fault of our nature remains so deeply impressed in our offspring as to make them guilty even when the guilt of the self-same fault has been washed away in the parent by the remission of sin. The guilt, therefore, of that corruption will remain in the carnal offspring of the regenerated (i.e… the baptized) until it also is washed away in them by the laver of regeneration Titus 3:5]. A regenerated man does not regenerate, but generates some according to the flesh. So his first birth holds a man in that bondage from which nothing but his second birth delivers him” (St. Augustine, “On Baptism of Infants”, circa 400 AD).

St. Aphraates: “From baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and he descends and rests upon the waters, and those who are baptized are clothed in him. The Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of rebirth, and then they receive the Holy Spirit. . . in the second birth, that through baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit.” (Aphraahat the Persian Sage, Treatises 6:14:4 [inter A.D. 340])

St. Clement of Alexandria: “When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 81:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation.” (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 191])

The Bible: “And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleans you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My spirit within you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and to do them.” (Ezekiel 36:25-27)

Tertullian: “Without Baptism, salvation is attainable by no one” (Tertullian - On Baptism circa 200AD).

St. Ambrose: "Without Baptism, faith will not secure salvation, since only through Baptism comes the remission of sin and the special grace… When the Lord Jesus Christ was about to give us the form of Baptism, He came to John, and John said to Him: “I ought to be baptized by Thee, and comest Thou to me?” And Jesus, answering, said to him: “Suffer it to be so for now. For thus it becometh us to fulfill al justice” [Mt 3:14/15]. (St. Ambrose - “One the Sacraments” Bk 1 CSL 73)

"No one ascends to the kingdom of Heaven except by the Sacrament of Baptism. No one is excused from Baptism: not infants nor anyone hindered by any necessity. (St. Ambrose of Milam, “On Abraham” Bk 4, Ch 11:79)

Martin Luther. Even Luther realized that “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard Baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted” (Martin Luther, Large Catechism 4:6).

“No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, `Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’.” (Tertullian, Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203])

That is the history of what the early Christians believed and taught. What you have been taught regarding baptism is no where to be found before the 16th century.

 

[RSiscoe]

Berean:

If any thing the Roman Catholic Church has exhibited periods of not wanting the lay person to be knowledgeable and have a mind of their own. Check out the history of forbidden books by the Catholic Church and you will see that the bible was one of the books the Church did not want the lay person to read. This took place in 1229 during the Council of Toulouse. Talk about not wanting the people to have a mind of their own and free will.

Well at least you didn’t quote the fictional “Council of Valincia” (that never existed), to show that the Catholic Church forbade Bible reading. There was a book written several years ago that completely made of a quote, and a council, to support their lie that the Catholic Church did not allow Bible reading. As the truth eventually comes out, they were finally confronted with their lie. However, that has not stopped others from re-quoting this same lie in other books.

The time period your reference comes from was during the Waldensian heresy. During this time, there were many false translations of the Bible. The Waldensians were handing copies out to people throughout the town. Therefore, during this short time, the Church forbade the people from reading the Bible, to protect them from the false translations. However, this was only in one specific area, and for a short time. Like a good mother, the Church protected her children from their poisonous translation. This shows how much care and concern the Church has for her members (or at least used to have). However, this historical fact has been twisted by those who will stop at nothing in their attempt to discredit the Catholic Church . Either through ignorance or malice, they have used this example in their attempt to claim that the Church used to “forbid Bible reading”. That is obviously a total distortion of what took place.

Don’t be deceived by the deceivers; look into both sides of an issue before you draw any conclusions. If you do, and if you are sincere, you will find that just about every argument against the Catholic Church is either a half truth (such as the example you provided), or a complete lie. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves” (Mt 7:15). Don’t just believe what you have been taught. Learn to “think for yourself” and check out the facts.

 

[RSiscoe]

Berean:

If it is not works based why must you say penance for absolution of sin? Pennance =payment and Jesus paid your debt in full. If there were any amount of works you could do to save yourself, Jesus came in vain. You can’t pay for it with penance it is free, just accept it and be born again.

Penance does not forgive the guilt of sin, but the “temporal punishment” due to sin. We do not “say penance for absolution”. We are given absolution freely (our sins are forgiven) then we perform the penance as part of our “temporal punishment”. No amount of good work can obtain the forgiveness for sins. Catholics can have their sins forgiven freely through Absolution, wherein Jesus forgives us through the Priest. Or another way to put it is that the Priest forgives us "in the person of Christ (In persona Christi) “If I have forgiven anything” said St. Paul, “I have done it in the person of Christ” (in persona Christi) (2 Cor. 2:10).

Priest have been given, by Christ, the power to forgive sins in His name. Confession was instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ, immediately after His resurrection, when He said to His disciples: “receive ye the Holy Ghost, as the Father has sent me, so I also send you**; whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven them, and whosoever sins you retain, they are retained”** (John 20:21-23).
From that day onward, confession to a Priest has been a practice of Christianity. Since you have probably been told that the Catholic Church “invented auricular confession at the 4th Lateran Council”, I will provide several quotes to prove that is false. The 4th Lateran Council (when many claim the Catholic Church “invented” confession) took place in the 12th century. All of the following quotes were within the first 400 years of the Church, many centuries before the Lateran Council.

St. John Chrysostom: “Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ (Mt 18:18) Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ (Jn 20:21) What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men.” (John Chrysostom, The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387])

St. Augusitne: “All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven: but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the powers of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, then, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate of heaven”. (St. Augustine, Christian combat PL40)

St. Augustine: “When you hear a man lay bare his conscience in confession, he has already come forth from the sepulcher; but he is not yet unbound. When is he unbound? By whom is he unbound? “Whatever you loose on earth,” Christ says to His priests, “shall be loosed in Heaven” (Mt 18:18, 16:19)… Let no one say to me I confess in my heart; I confess all my sins to God and to God alone: it is He Who must forgive me.” Then in vain was it said to the Apostles: “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, and whose sons you retain, they are retained” (Jn 20:23). Thus, you make a mockery of the Gospel!" (St. Augustine, Explanation of the Psalms, circa 400AD)
I could provide many more quotes to show that confession to a Priest has been a part of Christian practice since the earliest years.

continue…

 

[RSiscoe]

continuation of last post

Temporal Punishment: As stated above, penance, is performed, not to forgive sins, but in reparation for the damage sin has caused. Whenever we sin, we offend God and deserve a punishment. There are two kinds of punishments for sin: temporal punishment, and eternal punishment. When God forgives us, the eternal punishment is taken away, but the temporal punishment still must be satisfied.

Temporal punishment is common sense: For example let’s say that someone stole money from their employer. After several weeks, they began to be sorry for what they had done. If they confessed their sin to their employer, he may forgive them, but he would expect that they return the money. Temporal punishement is similar to “returning the money”. If is, either doing good to offset the bad, or suffering as punishment for the bad done.
One example that can be used to show both kind of punishment is found in 2nd Kings, which is called 2nd Samuel in most Protestant Bibles. In the following story, King David commits adultery with. Then after he repents, God forgives him; yet he still must suffer the consequences (the temporal punishment) for his sin:

[David] “saw from the roof of his house a woman washing herself… and the woman was very beautiful … and David sent messengers, and she came in to him, and he slept with her” (11:2,4). After this, God sent Nathan to David. Through Nathan, God said: “I annointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee from the hand of Saul, and gave thee thy master’s house and thy masters wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and Juda: and if these things be little, I shall add far greater things unto thee. Why therefore hast thou despised the word of the Lord, to do evil in my sight?” (12:7-9).

Then David repented of his sins: “David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to Blaspheme, for this things, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die”… “And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kep a fast, and doing in by himself lay upon the ground … And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died…” (12:13-14,16,18).

In the above story we can clearly see that there are two kinds of punishment: eternal punishment - “The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die”; and the temporal punishment – “. Nevertheless… the child that is born to thee, shall surely die”.

Penance is what we do as reparation for this sins we have committed. We can ether do good to “cover” over the bad; or we can suffer in reparation for it. The Bible tells us that “charity covers a multitude of sins” (1 Peter 4:8). Now, certainly we do not have our sins forgiven by charitable acts, yet, according to the Bible, charitalbe acts can “cover” sins: that is, they can cover over the temporal punishment due to sins. In the book od Daniel we are told: “redeem thou thy sins with alms, and thy iniquities with works of mercy to the poor” (Daniel 4:24); and in the book of James we are told that a person who converts another to the True Faith will cover a multitude of sins: “My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his the sinners] soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:20).

There are other examples that can be used, such as the man who came to Jesus and repented saying: “Lord if I have defrauded any many, I will return to him fore-fold” to which Our Lord said “this day salvation has come to this house”. There are other examples as well, but it is clear from the passages I quoted that there are two kinds of punishments, and that “charity” covers over sins. Since we know that charity does not forgive our sins, it must mean that charity covers over the temporal punishment due to sin.

Again, we do not have our sins forgiven through penance. The purpose of penance is to “cover” over the temporal punishment.

Therefore, if we believe the Bible, we must beleive that “charity covers a multitude of sins” and also that we can “redeem thou thy sins with alms, and thy iniquities with works of mercy to the poor” (Daniel 4:24).

Since we know that these things do not forgive the eternal punishment due to sins, they must refer to the temporal punishment.