A World without Religion?

[AnimalSpirits]

A. Please be specific about how it is out of line with Jesus and Augustine.

Both are very specific about being cast into fire, with Augustine even believing that it is physical fire in a physical place. Specifics in previous comments, but the ancients didn’t seem to share this interpretation of hell as some place we choose to go- rather, the sinners are sent there as punishment.

B. God’s benevolence was demonstrated by Jesus dying on a tree for our sake.

He sacrificed himself, to himself, to fulfill prophecies he delivered himself, and then revived himself… which is the ultimate act of benevolence?

You won’t find any God more benevolent than that God. Again, eternity of torment is our choice. If we don’t want God, God will never force himself on us. This is why we are fools to deny God and we are fools to behave in such a way as to deserve the eternal torment of separation from God.

But the question I asked was, could your god have made souls that did not suffer eternally if they were separated from him? If not, why not? If so, why did he intentionally choose to add an infinite amount of needless suffering? Hardly seems consistent with being “the most benevolent.”

 

[Bradski]

If a man engages in mass murder, he has no right to complain of the death sentence.

Quite right. But what would you say to the judge who sentences him to be tortured. And not just for a short time (and actually it’s not even for a long time). And forget the murder. He’ll get it for any number of crimes well short of murder. Cruel and unusual punishment?

Death seems the better option.

But we know it’s not fiery torment, don’t we.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

He sacrificed himself, to himself, to fulfill prophecies he delivered himself, and then revived himself… which is the ultimate act of benevolence?

But the question I asked was, could your god have made souls that did not suffer eternally if they were separated from him? If not, why not? If so, why did he intentionally choose to add an infinite amount of needless suffering? Hardly seems consistent with being “the most benevolent.”

Try going through what Jesus went through and ask yourself if you loved the people for whom you died … in order to keep them from the eternal torment of hell.

But God can’t force anybody into heaven or into hell.

If they are hell bent, that is their choice, not God’s.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Quite right. But what would you say to the judge who sentences him to be tortured.

Prison is torture. Are you saying there should be no prisons?

I think the physical torture of hell which we try to imagine will not compare with the spiritual torture we will have inflicted upon ourselves. The worst part of hell will be realizing what a damnable fool we have been to have chosen hell over heaven.

 

[AnimalSpirits]

Try going through what Jesus went through and ask yourself if you loved the people for whom you died … in order to keep them from the eternal torment of hell.

But God can’t force anybody into heaven or into hell.

If they are hell bent, that is their choice, not God’s.

Plenty of people have gone through what he went through and worse- all without the knowledge that they could will themselves back to life and ascend into paradise. I’m less than super impressed.

In your religion, your god created us capable of eternal suffering and, according to Jesus and early interpretations of what he said, actively places people in an eternal torture chamber. If he was that interested in sparing people from eternal torment, he could have just not made eternal torment possible.

If this is truly how you envision the perfect embodiment of goodness, I’m somewhat flummoxed.

 

[AnimalSpirits]

Prison is torture. Are you saying there should be no prisons?

Grasping at straws?

A. We are not the embodiment of goodness. If your god is truly so great, one would think he’d act on an infinitely higher standard than our vindictive societies.

B. Prison, nominally at least, is meant rehabilitate. More comparable to purgatory than hell.

C. It also serves a simple purpose of keeping the innocent safe from the guilty. One suspects that an all powerful being could accomplish this by other means.

D. Prison in general is not defined as torture by any law or treaty of which I am aware. Torture can indeed happen in prison, but imprisonment itself is not a form of torture.

 

[oldcelt]

Plenty of people have gone through what he went through and worse- all without the knowledge that they could will themselves back to life and ascend into paradise. I’m less than super impressed.

In your religion, your god created us capable of eternal suffering and, according to Jesus and early interpretations of what he said, actively places people in an eternal torture chamber. If he was that interested in sparing people from eternal torment, he could have just not made eternal torment possible.

If this is truly how you envision the perfect embodiment of goodness, I’m somewhat flummoxed.

Precisely.

 

[PRmerger]

If he was that interested in sparing people from eternal torment, he could have just not made eternal torment possible.

Where do you think God should send people who find His Love odious?

 

[AnimalSpirits]

Where do you think God should send people who find His Love odious?

Into nonexistence? Into a state of moderate happiness? Into a state of sleep or neutrality? One would assume that a truly omnipotent and purely good being would have taken any of these options, rather than creating completely pointless eternal suffering.

Unless this whole “purely good” thing is a later invention superimposed over a more cruel tradition.

 

[Bradski]

Australia.

 

[tonyrey]

Into nonexistence? Into a state of moderate happiness? Into a state of sleep or neutrality? One would assume that a truly omnipotent and purely good being would have taken any of these options, rather than creating completely pointless eternal suffering.

Unless this whole “purely good” thing is a later invention superimposed over a more cruel tradition.

The assumption that “pointless eternal suffering is created by God” is refuted by the fact that all of us are responsible to some extent for the hideous amount of injustice and needless suffering on this planet. One glance at the bloodstained history of society is sufficient to establish the hideous reality of evil created by man…

 

[tonyrey]

Grasping at straws?

A. We are not the embodiment of goodness. If your god is truly so great, one would think he’d act on an infinitely higher standard than our vindictive societies.

B. Prison, nominally at least, is meant rehabilitate. More comparable to purgatory than hell.

C. It also serves a simple purpose of keeping the innocent safe from the guilty. One suspects that an all powerful being could accomplish this by other means.

D. Prison in general is not defined as torture by any law or treaty of which I am aware. Torture can indeed happen in prison, but imprisonment itself is not a form of torture.

The worst form of imprisonment is slavery to our own opinions for which we alone are to blame…

 

[tonyrey]

Plenty of people have gone through what he went through and worse- all without the knowledge that they could will themselves back to life and ascend into paradise. I’m less than super impressed.

In your religion, your god created us capable of eternal suffering and, according to Jesus and early interpretations of what he said, actively places people in an eternal torture chamber. If he was that interested in sparing people from eternal torment, he could have just not made eternal torment possible.

If this is truly how you envision the perfect embodiment of goodness, I’m somewhat flummoxed.

In other words you would prefer to be a zombie!

 

[PRmerger]

Into nonexistence?

That’s a good point. God could, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses profess, annihilate the soul. I think that would perhaps be a merciful thing to do if the human person had never done a single sinful act.

However, if the person had made horrific choices in his life, well, justice demands that he be punished, no?

Into a state of moderate happiness?

Like Limbo? Perhaps. Maybe that is indeed where unbaptized souls who have never rejected God go.

Into a state of sleep or neutrality?

Like the Seventh Day Adventists proclaim? Sure. That’s also a possibility supported by Scripture.

One would assume that a truly omnipotent and purely good being would have taken any of these options, rather than creating completely pointless eternal suffering.

Well, that’s begging the question.

One has to prove first that it’s “completely pointless”.

And, if the soul is immortal, then eternal suffering/bliss is the logical conclusion. By definition. Immortal = eternal.

 

[PRmerger]

What you might have heard (and which I quite probably have said myself), is that Catholics must believe certain things. Which is true, but which does not equate to Catholics must have blind faith. It is patently obvious that if you don’t believe some of the precepts of the Catholic church, then you are, by definition, not a Catholic. Or at best, a cafe latte Catholic, a Catholic in name only. And obviously there are very many of these (no small number use contraception, most have no problem with gay marriage and a large proportion of abortions are performed on Catholic women).

So you are free to question any matter and come to your own conclusions. In fact, it is probably considered a prerequisite for a Catholic. It’s just that if your conclusion contradicts the church’s, then ‘thanks for making the application, but at this point in time, we don’t expect it to be successful. We wish you well for the future’.

As Cardinal Newman (not Fulton Sheen ) said: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.

So it’s not: ‘Catholics must believe this’. It’s: ‘You must believe this if you are to be considered a Catholic’. Huge difference.

Actually, not quite correct: once you are baptized a Catholic, you are always a Catholic. There is an indelible mark placed upon the soul at the moment of baptism. What existed 3 seconds prior to the baptism exists no more. A new creation! The universe is changed forever, Brad, at the moment of one’s baptism.

Now, 'tis true that many a Catholic has removed himself from the Body of Christ through his rejection of certain truths, but the Church does not remove the claim she has on him because he rejects her.

 

[Tajho]

Grasping at straws?

A. We are not the embodiment of goodness. If your god is truly so great, one would think he’d act on an infinitely higher standard than our vindictive societies.

B. Prison, nominally at least, is meant rehabilitate. More comparable to purgatory than hell.

C. It also serves a simple purpose of keeping the innocent safe from the guilty. One suspects that an all powerful being could accomplish this by other means.

D. Prison in general is not defined as torture by any law or treaty of which I am aware. Torture can indeed happen in prison, but imprisonment itself is not a form of torture.

The first “other means” that comes to mind is to NOT have given “free will” to his creations. Then there would be a world without religion as in just “being” would constitute in itself the adoration and worship of God. Which brings a “Catch 22” with as the adoration and worship are part and parcel of what is religion.

Second thing is no punishment without the ability to choose.

A simplified universe just universal and eternal “being.”

Add “free will” and things instantly get complicated.

Point - Keeping it simple isn’t productive, no chance of change, no doing much of anything except as programmed. Your PC/Tablet/smart phone cannot interact with you and express love or hate of you. it can only be programmed and have such orders/scripts carried out.
Point- Without considering “God” even a dog/cat/pet can return love or turn on you. It is a very rudimentary example if “animal instinct” making a choice.
Point - Self awareness comes into being only when “free will” is present

We are self aware, we do have free will hence we can choose to be of God or not. Justice is available when beings choose of free well to exercise it.
Looks like God has chosen to employ justice. So why would not the loyal creations be rewarded and the rebels expelled?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

In your religion, your god created us capable of eternal suffering and, according to Jesus and early interpretations of what he said, actively places people in an eternal torture chamber. If he was that interested in sparing people from eternal torment, he could have just not made eternal torment possible.

God also created us capable of eternal joy.

Some choose eternal joy. Others choose eternal suffering.

Atheists always argue against the **eternal consequences **of their sinning. I don’t blame them for that, but it’s a lame argument. God makes the rules, not atheists. If one can’t believe in such a God, one chooses hell over heaven.

Catholic always argue for the **eternal consequences **of having lived the good life. There are two prime conditions for this eternal consequence. Sincere repentance of sins and obedience to the design of God that we should be joined with Him in eternity.

 

[Aloysium]

It is impossible not to exist. Everyone reading this exists in eternity. What we’ve done or haven’t, has been done or not. It will reverberate through time, like ripples in a pond, affecting others beyond our time here. It cannot be undone, but it can be forgiven. At the foundation of all this is God’s compassion and God Himself. Love is the Judge. Love understands frailty, circumstances, and why we would choose transient, destructive and selfish interests over what is good. That is why, as revealed in time through the death and resurrection of Jesus, the innocent Lamb was slain before the foundations of the world - that we might all be saved. Evil is a mystery that we do know too well in our hearts. I would assert that everyone is aware of the existence of hell, kowning one’s own wickedness. In our conscience, we can see that it is where we belong when we do wrong, cause hurt. Of course intellectualization, denial in its many forms, keeps us feeling comfortable. But we dip into that eternal state repeatedly in life - “I suffer.” is a thought occurring billions of times a day. In life it guides us to what is real, permanent, true, beautiful and good. Like some angels, whom I see as having created those states, some of us will follow, becoming hell itself.

Not entirely happy with this but it’s my :twocents:

 

[AnimalSpirits]

That’s a good point. God could, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses profess, annihilate the soul. I think that would perhaps be a merciful thing to do if the human person had never done a single sinful act.

However, if the person had made horrific choices in his life, well, justice demands that he be punished, no?

A single person in hell, if your beliefs are true, will suffer more than all other beings ever to exist since the beginning of time combined. How long does Hitler deserve to suffer? (I know the Catholic position is that nobody is in hell for sure, but just for the sake of an example). If he suffered 100 years per person killed would that be enough? 1 million years? 14.6 billion years? Because eternity is a lot longer than that.

Moreover, it depends. If your deity is truly the embodiment of good, no- why would he feel the need to inflict suffering on the helpless? We, in theory, punish to rehabilitate and to discourage people from committing crime in the future (as well as other pragmatic purposes). We don’t lock people in rooms and torture them, making every effort to keep them alive as long as possible to continue their suffering, because that is the height of barbarism.

Like Limbo? Perhaps. Maybe that is indeed where unbaptized souls who have never rejected God go.

Like the Seventh Day Adventists proclaim? Sure. That’s also a possibility supported by Scripture.

Which are beliefs I find less objectionable than the eternal suffering one- although I do wonder how they rectify their beliefs with the fire and worms promised by Jesus.

Well, that’s begging the question.

One has to prove first that it’s “completely pointless”.

I’d think a soul which has nothing to look forward to but continuing to suffer forever is the very definition of pointless suffering. An entity in hell, at that point, literally only exists so that it can continue to suffer.

And, if the soul is immortal, then eternal suffering/bliss is the logical conclusion. By definition. Immortal = eternal.

The soul only exists, in your belief system, as you god defined it. If a soul is capable of suffering eternally, then that is because your deity made them with that purpose in mind.

 

[AnimalSpirits]

God also created us capable of eternal joy.

Some choose eternal joy. Others choose eternal suffering.

Do you believe that your god was incapable of making souls that were capable of eternal joy (as you believe they are now) that were not capable of eternal suffering? If he was unable, that would be quite interesting. If was unwilling, that would be quite disturbing.