A Worm Cut in Half Has Two Souls?

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This is an old classical topic of philosophy, but I’ve never heard a good Catholic answer to it. Suppose a worm is cut into two, such that each half continues to live. I can see only four possibilities regarding the soul:

–There is one soul that now has two bodies
–There were two souls all along
–There was one soul but now another is created
–We just don’t know the answer

Don’t tell me that worms don’t have souls… I know they don’t have rational souls, as we do, but they do have simple souls in that a soul is what makes a physical body alive.

So any thoughts on this?
 
So any thoughts on this?
Animals don’t have souls and the Catholic Church has never taught they did.
How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?
Only one angel, just as only one man can be in one place. Nature isn’t unlimited.
 
This is kind of like the problems of mixtons. How are we to explain such a thing with the substantial form? :confused:
 
Sorry, worms don’t have souls.😛

If a person is cut in half, say from the waist, would you argue that he has 2 souls now?
In both cases, the beings would physically die soon. I would say 1 soul, 1 body, although the body happens to be 2 pieces.

Is a soul what makes physical bodies alive?
I could argue that it is our organ systems all working together…
 
How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?
I investigate this question here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5379154&postcount=17

… If anyone has the morbid desire to the know the answer (or my answer at least). Just as a warning, I get really ticked off about when people ask this question (but that’s okay, I still love you).😃
Show me a Church document where it says animals have souls …
Let me say this: show me any Church document or saint’s writing or anything with any kind of theological weight whatsoever that denies that animals have souls. All canonized theologians (including Thomas Aquinas) that ever had anything to say on this topic said that animals have souls. This has been the prevalent understanding throughout the history of the Church and it has never been contradicted by any ecclesiastical proclamation. Thus, it seems to be true by means of the Ordinary Magisterium.

The first one (to my knowledge) that ever denied this was Descartes, the founder of modern philosophy.

But once again, they have mortal souls, that is, the souls go out of existence with the body.
If a person is cut in half, say from the waist, would you argue that he has 2 souls now?
In both cases, the beings would physically die soon. I would say 1 soul, 1 body, although the body happens to be 2 pieces.
Does a worm die soon after it is cut in two? I don’t think this is correct.

Also, this is not a good comparison, since two new worms come about that exist separately, whereas cutting a human in half kills the him. It’s a different case.
Is a soul what makes physical bodies alive?
I could argue that it is our organ systems all working together…
And the question is … how do the organ systems work together? Is it mere materialistic processes all the way through? Or is there an immaterial component that animates it? Is it all completely machinery? If you could argue this and prove it, then you’d be the first one.

Also, you could say then that the body can operate just fine without the soul. I don’t know if you’re comfortable with that.
This is an old classical topic of philosophy, but I’ve never heard a good Catholic answer to it. Suppose a worm is cut into two, such that each half continues to live. I can see only four possibilities regarding the soul:

1–There is one soul that now has two bodies
2–There were two souls all along
3–There was one soul but now another is created
4–We just don’t know the answer

Don’t tell me that worms don’t have souls… I know they don’t have rational souls, as we do, but they do have simple souls in that a soul is what makes a physical body alive.

So any thoughts on this?
#1 is not true, because that would imply that the two worms are of the same primary substance. That they are the same “thing” except different parts the same thing. But surely this is not the case.

#2 is not true either, because then the first worm would be actually two worms.

#3 is correct.

#4 is correct (for some people)

When an organism splits into two and the result is two sustaining organisms, then another soul has been created. The very reasonable theory (and nothing else makes much sense) is that one of the resulting organism retains the original soul and one of them has the new soul.

This is an important question because it can be asked regarding the conception of human twins. If the soul begins at conception … what about when the cell splits off and starts forming another person? The only way to answer this is by saying that another soul is created when they split. That’s at least what a Vatican bioethicist said makes the most sense. There doesn’t appear to be any reason to deny it. But maybe there is. A real objection has yet to be voiced.
 
Let me say this: show me any Church document or saint’s writing or anything with any kind of theological weight whatsoever that denies that animals have souls. All canonized theologians (including Thomas Aquinas) that ever had anything to say on this topic said that animals have souls. This has been the prevalent understanding throughout the history of the Church and it has never been contradicted by any ecclesiastical proclamation. Thus, it seems to be true by means of the Ordinary Magisterium.
Nope. The issue of limbo disproves this.
 
Is all this language about primary substances being inhabited by souls really from the Catholic Church? If it is, what is the basis of it, besides someone high up in the Church deciding to write it down? This all sounds very much like some kind of arcane pseudo-scientific magic spell process; it’s all a little farfetched for me.
 
Is all this language about primary substances being inhabited by souls really from the Catholic Church? If it is, what is the basis of it, besides someone high up in the Church deciding to write it down? This all sounds very much like some kind of arcane pseudo-scientific magic spell process; it’s all a little farfetched for me.
It comes from Aristotle originally. And then it was developed by Thomas Aquinas (and other Medieval Scholastics). Considering the Church has honored Thomism above any other philosophy (unless I’m mistaken), then I would say its legit Catholic thought. The concept of “substance” is one of the more basic and fundamental ideas in Thomism.
 
It comes from Aristotle originally. And then it was developed by Thomas Aquinas (and other Medieval Scholastics). Considering the Church has honored Thomism above any other philosophy (unless I’m mistaken), then I would say its legit Catholic thought. The concept of “substance” is one of the more basic and fundamental ideas in Thomism.
Thomas also said Mary sinned, so I guess the Church believes Mary sinned? Oh wait, no, the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Not everything a saint says is true. You must read their writings in light of the Church’s teachings - not vica-versa.
 
I guess I’ll give an explanation of what substance is (both primary and secondary), and some other stuff …

Substance: that which exists by itself (or in itself)

Accident: (also called Attribute) that which exists in a substance

Examples of substance would be “tree,” “human,” “rock,” “couch,” “lamp.” Examples of an accident would be “blue,” “smooth,” “running,” etc. … anything that can’t exist by itself but must exist in some way in a substance. Does that make sense?

Also, Substance can be considered in two ways:

Primary Substance: an individual, concrete substance (examples: my computer, Abraham Lincoln, this book)

Secondary Substance: the abstract essence of a substance (examples: human nature, computer-ness, book-ness)

So, even though there are different individual humans, they all are of the *same kind of substance * a.k.a. the same secondary substance. All computers are separate from each other but they are all computers, and thus have all (for a lack of a better term) have computer-ness. If they didn’t share this essence, why are the unified under the concept of “computer.”

That’s the rough overview of it. I kind of cut corners. But that’s the general idea.

A lot of these ideas were completely commonplace in academia and even normal grammar schools until the beginning of the 20th century. These ideas are very much founded in common sense and denying them leads to contradictions. A lot of english grammar is completely based on these metaphysical terms and ideas. But modernism has cast them away, and now they look like occult magic.
Thomas also said Mary sinned, so I guess the Church believes Mary sinned? Oh wait, no, the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Not everything a saint says is true. You must read their writings in light of the Church’s teachings - not vica-versa.
That’s true, but that isn’t part of Thomistic philosophy. You could also say that Thomas did not apply his philosophical principles correctly to that question.

Also Duns Scotus was the Scholastic who got the Immaculate Conception right … but he would have agreed with Thomas on everything regarding what I just said (the stuff about substance and accident and whatnot).

Any good, orthodox Catholic school you go to that teaches philosophy will teach this stuff.

Also, transubstantiation (when the host turns into the Eucharist) is described by the Council of Trent (I think it was Trent) in the language of substance and accident. To deny the legitimacy of these basic Aristotelian concepts would essentially be denying the infallibility of ecumenical councils. In other words, you would be a heretic.

But I understand your aversion to these foreign concepts. It’s not your fault. Hopefully, we’ll see this terminology resurface once again in mainstream academics.
 
I guess another question would be: did Aquinas just make up these ideas, or is there some basis in Catholicism? Or did the Church just like the ideas enough to say, “Yeah, this sounds good, this is what we believe now,” and make people accept it? I’m not well versed in metaphysics, so I hope you understand why this is all kind of shocking to find in a religion as modern as Catholicism. Also, what kinds of contradictions arise when these ideas are denied; could you give an example? I’m not being sarcastic, I just can’t think of any off the top of my head and I’m interested to see what kinds of contradictions you mean.
 
I guess another question would be: did Aquinas just make up these ideas, or is there some basis in Catholicism? Or did the Church just like the ideas enough to say, “Yeah, this sounds good, this is what we believe now,” and make people accept it? I’m not well versed in metaphysics, so I hope you understand why this is all kind of shocking to find in a religion as modern as Catholicism.
Fair questions.

Aquinas did not make these ideas up. Most everything came from Aristotle. Thomas just built upon it, using what Aristotle had already laid out. Did Aristotle make this stuff up? Well, a lot of it is based on Plato, but corrects or at least qualifies some of the stranger and more mystical stuff Plato said. And Plato was influenced in various different ways by the Pre-Socratics, including Thales, Anaximander, Aniximenes, Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Xenophanes, Parmenides, Empedocles, Leucippus, Democritus, and Anaxagoras. Every one of those Pre-Socratics, taken by themselves, are crazy, but when combined with each other (as Plato arguably did) they start to make a very sensible look at reality. Aristotle, you could say, systemized and brought down to earth what Plato was saying. That’s my view anyway, and I believe others have said stuff like this.

And you could also look at all the Greek philosophers and say that they merely expressed ideas more clearly (and sometimes more systematically) that every human really understands (but understands initially in a vague way). Aristotle, especially, merely took existing Greek words and how they were used and developed a system showing how these words should be used consistently based on what they mean. The translated Greek words into English (if translated similarly enough) share the same consistent Aristotelian logic. Words express ideas, and ideas work the same way, no matter what word symbolizes it.

So, in a sense, Aristotle’s philosophy isn’t just “made up” but is based on common universal ideas that make sense. Obviously, many philosophies claim they are this way, but that’s not always true. The way to figure out which philosophies reflect reality is to … well … look at them. Aristotle has virulently stood the test of time in a most astonishing and pervasive manner.

Now, the Catholic Church (as it is believed) received a set of truths that were divinely revealed (let’s just call this “faith”). These truths cannot be known by natural reason (that is, we can’t just figure them out on our own without being told by God). Philosophy (even Aristotle’s philosophy) can be known just by human reasoning.

The Catholic Faith (as is believed) even though it’s different from natural reason, does not contradict natural reason. If any philosophy is true, it can be used to examine the divine truths. The saying is, “Grace builds upon nature.” That is, natural wisdom (like Aristotle’s philosophy) can help one understand and make more sense of divine revelation. Since Aristotle’s philosophy is perhaps the most developed, clear, and useful philosophy to describe complex realities, it has been used by the Catholic Church to explain a lot of its theology.

Did the Church look at Aristotle and say, “Yeah, this sounds good, this is what we believe now?” … it depends what you mean. Obviously, the Church recognizes that there are many ideas out there that are correct, yet do not have to do with divine revelation (although they may be compatible with divine revelation). When the Church found that Aristotle’s philosophy was correct (at least, largely), it employed its language in talking about doctrine, and thus implying that it affirmed the truth of Aristotle’s philosophy.

These are my thoughts. I think it’s a pretty fair evaluation of these things. I’m open to correction.
Also, what kinds of contradictions arise when these ideas are denied; could you give an example? I’m not being sarcastic, I just can’t think of any off the top of my head and I’m interested to see what kinds of contradictions you mean.
Well, good question.

If you deny the distinction between substance and accident, then I guess you could say “blue” could exist in itself and not necessarily in something. You could say that any action can have substantial being … that is, “Running” could exist in itself … you could hold “Running” because it would be like holding a “ball” (which is a legitimate substance). In short, characteristics could exist by themselves. Crazy stuff like that. Most people wouldn’t think those crazy things.

Also, if you deny the distinction between primary and secondary substance … such as, if you think there are only primary substances, you couldn’t say that there are multiple things of the same kind. For example, you couldn’t say that there are multiple horses, because that would imply that each of them is a “horse” (referring to its secondary substance) but if primary substance only exists then you have to call them completely different things.

Does that make sense? Those are some of the crazy consequences if you deny these Aristotelian and Thomistic concepts. A lot of this is just common sense, but Aristotle (and his successors) merely systemized it and developed a consistent way to talk about this stuff. When you get into complicated debates, it is necessary to hash out distinctions of this level of detail.
 
Thanks all – my question was answered. I guess it also started several others, which is neat.

I don’t think it’s a problem to say that animals have souls. Notice I said that they do not have rational souls that live forever. But a soul is simply that unknown “thing” that gives life to a physical body. To say that a worm doesn’t have any soul of any kind is to say that it is dead, yes?
 
Show me a Church document where it says animals have souls and where it says angels have dimensions.
Hey, I’m not the one that cares, I was simply pointing out that a lot of Catholics believe that animals do have a kind of soul, so you believe whatever you want. As for the dimensions, you claimed only one could fit, so you obviously must know their dimensions otherwise you wouldn’t have made an exact claim… so lets here your logic on why only one would fit on a pin.
 
This is an old classical topic of philosophy, but I’ve never heard a good Catholic answer to it. Suppose a worm is cut into two, such that each half continues to live. I can see only four possibilities regarding the soul:

–There is one soul that now has two bodies
–There were two souls all along
–There was one soul but now another is created
–We just don’t know the answer

Don’t tell me that worms don’t have souls… I know they don’t have rational souls, as we do, but they do have simple souls in that a soul is what makes a physical body alive.

So any thoughts on this?
I always thought if you cut a worm in two it will die?
But to play devil advocate. Lets just say it did. And it did have a soul. The answer to your question is none of the above.
You see worms have multiple personalities. So when it is cut in two n lives. One personality goes in one half and the other personality in the other. Leaving us with two worms which are mentaly stable, that are able to lead a full and productive life in worm society.
 
asking if an animal has a soul is on par with asking if a roomba has a soul. subtract our natural prediliction for projective parodelia and anthropomorphic world views and we come to a nano molecular robot, known as an animal, differing in substance but not kind from any complicated, programmable machine, like a roomba. sentiment aside, i see no reason to believe that animals have actual souls.
 
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