AA

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

This is progress, not perfection, and as long as there is progress there is hope. Next, if you choose to illuminate, tell why you disagree.


Methodism continued…

Meetings for accountability for sin…sound familiar?

Coptic, only one has truth. That one is God…not some anonymous “doctor” on the Internet.

I was referring to your “truth” you claim to have.

 

[Mgray82]

Oh geez…look Coptic, I don’t really care about Methodism okay? I’m not, never was or never will be a Methodist. I won’t even engauge in an argument with you about it. You need to open a new thread for that.

 

[CopticChristian]

Oh geez…look Coptic, I don’t really care about Methodism okay? I’m not, never was or never will be a Methodist. I won’t even engauge in an argument with you about it. You need to open a new thread for that.

Mgray,

The discussion is AA and Catholics. Jesus Christ the Bearer of the water of life points out that we have a pastoral duty to distinguish…

morally neutral language of Addiction/Recovery

that is substituted for

Sin/Salvation…

I am pointing out the roots of AA that everyone admits is to get at root sin…this is good. What are the roots of AA so those that lurk can know and decide…

go to AA…diseased forever…sin…recovery…addiction…

or

Methodist Church…sin/salvation…no such thing as disease

or find an alternative that is better than 37/48 when compared with methods that work…

As a Catholic I have a duty to point discuss Sin/Salvation

As a Physician I have an obligation to provide evidence of what is and isn’t true for a problem like alcoholism, etc…

Since you have no desire to discuss AA/Catholics…then don’t…

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

The discussion is AA and Catholics. Jesus Christ the Bearer of the water of life points out that we have a pastoral duty to distinguish…

morally neutral language of Addiction/Recovery

that is substituted for

Sin/Salvation…

I am pointing out the roots of AA that everyone admits is to get at root sin…this is good. What are the roots of AA so those that lurk can know and decide…

go to AA…diseased forever…sin…recovery…addiction…

or

Methodist Church…sin/salvation…no such thing as disease

or find an alternative that is better than 37/48 when compared with methods that work…

As a Catholic I have a duty to point discuss Sin/Salvation

As a Physician I have an obligation to provide evidence of what is and isn’t true for a problem like alcoholism, etc…

Since you have no desire to discuss AA/Catholics…then don’t…

Coptic, why are there numerous Catholic priests in AA? I’ve never heard of them attending Methodist church services…

What is the Churches stance on priests attending AA and how come the priest who attends AA with me was influenced to go by his bishop?

Why is there a retreat titled “the Matt Talbot retreat” for alcoholic men in AA hosted at Catholic monistarys?

 

[Andrew1980]

Coptic, why are there numerous Catholic priests in AA? I’ve never heard of them attending Methodist church services…

What is the Churches stance on priests attending AA and how come the priest who attends AA with me was influenced to go by his bishop?

Why is there a retreat titled “the Matt Talbot retreat” for alcoholic men in AA hosted at Catholic monistarys?

Apparently, the entire medical community and the Catholic Church has had the wool pulled over their eyes about what AA really is. Coptic read a book showing a Wolf in Sheep’s clothing that detailed this very fact. He is on a mission to correct the medical community and to correct the Catholic Church based on a book that likely sold less than 100 copies.

I have know of atleast 1 priest who was in AA (used him for my Step 5 work) and 1 priest in SA. Some how their Bishops, who have authority because of their office, do not understand that sending a priest to AA is akin to sending them to Jimmy Swaggards School of Theology. Let us be thankful that we have Coptic sounding the alarm so that we now know, despite many of us reaping great spirtiual growth through working the 12 Steps and greatly increasing our knowledge and faith in the Catholic church, that all these benefits have been illusion. We should all follow his program which isn’t a treatment, but does treat you at a retreat.

 

[Mgray82]

Apparently, the entire medical community and the Catholic Church has had the wool pulled over their eyes about what AA really is. Coptic read a book showing a Wolf in Sheep’s clothing that detailed this very fact. He is on a mission to correct the medical community and to correct the Catholic Church based on a book that likely sold less than 100 copies.

I have know of atleast 1 priest who was in AA (used him for my Step 5 work) and 1 priest in SA. Some how their Bishops, who have authority because of their office, do not understand that sending a priest to AA is akin to sending them to Jimmy Swaggards School of Theology. Let us be thankful that we have Coptic sounding the alarm so that we now know, despite many of us reaping great spirtiual growth through working the 12 Steps and greatly increasing our knowledge and faith in the Catholic church, that all these benefits have been illusion. We should all follow his program which isn’t a treatment, but does treat you at a retreat.

Ahh…I see…

Okay, I missed the part about Coptic writing a book. Sure does explain a whole lot.

Perhaps I should write a counter book to his book full of all the stumpers he couldn’t address here!

 

[Mgray82]

I think I’ve reached full capacity with this argument Andrew1980.

Only God can convince him, I can’t. Let us join in prayer for him.

 

[Andrew1980]

Ahh…I see…

Okay, I missed the part about Coptic writing a book. Sure does explain a whole lot.

Perhaps I should write a counter book to his book full of all the stumpers he couldn’t address here!

He didn’t write it that I know of, but he did read it. The cover photo clearly showed a wolf, the clear sign of evil, wearing a sheep suit. What we don’t realize is that their is a massive worldwide cover-up designed to help AA and the other 12 Step programs thrive. My guess is that the few dollars that are collected and sent home with the treasurer is being siphoned off. Likely the funds are being used to prop-up African warlords and to promote the denegration of western society as we know it. The big wigs in the medical community are involved in the cover-up. In addition, it sounds as though many of our well meaning Bishops have taken the bait and are being led astray as well.

The whole master plan is coming together as the AA enterprise, which seeks to control world commerce, religion, and politics, has now infiltrated the justice system, the UN, the medical community, all Protestant religions (save the Baptist who don’t drink to start with), and even members of the Catholic church hierarchy. St Ignatious, whose Spiritual Exercises are very similar to the 12 Steps, may have been involved as early as the 16th century. No one really knows for certain, other than Coptic, how deep the AA tenacles reach. It is apparent that AA is really the impetous for the coming New World Order and is really the back bone of all that is wrong with society.

 

[Jerusha]

He didn’t write it that I know of, but he did read it… It is apparent that AA is really the impetus for the coming New World Order and is really the back bone of all that is wrong with society.

Now I understand where he is coming from.

 

[Mgray82]

He didn’t write it that I know of, but he did read it. The cover photo clearly showed a wolf, the clear sign of evil, wearing a sheep suit. What we don’t realize is that their is a massive worldwide cover-up designed to help AA and the other 12 Step programs thrive. My guess is that the few dollars that are collected and sent home with the treasurer is being siphoned off. Likely the funds are being used to prop-up African warlords and to promote the denegration of western society as we know it. The big wigs in the medical community are involved in the cover-up. In addition, it sounds as though many of our well meaning Bishops have taken the bait and are being led astray as well.

The whole master plan is coming together as the AA enterprise, which seeks to control world commerce, religion, and politics, has now infiltrated the justice system, the UN, the medical community, all Protestant religions (save the Baptist who don’t drink to start with), and even members of the Catholic church hierarchy. St Ignatious, whose Spiritual Exercises are very similar to the 12 Steps, may have been involved as early as the 16th century. No one really knows for certain, other than Coptic, how deep the AA tenacles reach. It is apparent that AA is really the impetous for the coming New World Order and is really the back bone of all that is wrong with society.

Coptic has stated that he is neither an alcoholic, nor does he attend or has ever attended an AA meeting.

It’s funny he attacks the history of AA. We as Americans, our very country has history as well. Some very awful…slavery for example. Yet we are Americans and as far as I’m concerned, proud of it. AA, as with our country has never claimed to be infallible or inerrant as the Catholic Church and the holy Bible have. That’s not what’s in dispute here.

Let it also be shown that, to say; “you don’t have an argument because you don’t go to AA” is very relevant in this debate. Because you can go and observe at an AA meeting. When discussing religion, which AA is not, some faiths will not let you in the door unless you are a member of their church or faith or you are in the process of joining their church or faith. But clearly, I can’t tell a Muslim what it’s like to worship Allah at a mosque when I’ve never been to one.

Coptic says that alcoholism is not a disease but a theory. Fair enough. That just means he can’t either prove or disprove alcoholism as a disease. (Even though they have a drug called Antabuse used to :quote: Prevent alcoholism) He’s stuck with an opinion which nobody cares about but himself.

He can’t answer if babies are born with genetic defects as a result of original sin. He believes that souls can become sick (the same word meaning “disease” in Latin) but in no way correlates with the idea that the alcoholic suffers from a spiritual malady. He ridiculs people who read the Big Book about what it says about alcoholism…yet he can’t reference in any medical book where it addresses sin or mentions the word “God”. He also says he doesn’t attribute free time or give money to those sick or suffering from alcohol or drug abuse. He can’t tell us why there are a numerous amount of sober priests in AA. I can go on and on…

All he seems to be doing anymore is making accusations and telling people how “misguided” and “uneducated” they are.

He told estesbob that he was wrong about his alcoholism. Estesbob states he’s been sober for 28 years. Now whose word am I gonna take for sticking around in AA? Estesbob, sober in AA for 28 years…or some guy claiming to be a doctor on the Internet who’s never as much as gone to an AA meeting, let alone even have a drinking problem…

 

[estesbob]

He told estesbob that he was wrong about his alcoholism. Estesbob states he’s been sober for 28 years. Now whose word am I gonna take for sticking around in AA? Estesbob, sober in AA for 28 years…or some guy claiming to be a doctor on the Internet who’s never as much as gone to an AA meeting, let alone even have a drinking problem…

And trust in God! As I said many pages ago it is useless to argue with people who are not in AA and/or not an alcoholic. For them its a philosophical debate-for us its a matter of life and death.

 

[Jerusha]

Or at the very least, living isolated as a dry drunk, stigmatized by judgmental attitudes for past behavior, and not addressing the issues that drove one to abuse alcohol in the first place, versus living a normal life as a non-drinker.

 

[jesuspsr]

And trust in God! As I said many pages ago it is useless to argue with people who are not in AA and/or not an alcoholic. For them its a philosophical debate-for us its a matter of life and death.

I concur.

jesus g

 

[Pythons]

Pythons,

This is an indictment of humanity, not AA. These things happen however AA does not promote this in their writing, philosophy or any other place. People are people and where you find people that make mistakes you find people that make mistakes however it is more an indictment of the human condition not the place that it happens at.

I agree, it’s 100% about our humanity & that’s what this issue is all about…
…I’m coming at this from the perspective of people I knew telling me AA was the best “meat market” they ever experienced.
…I’m coming at this from the perspective of two separate AA halls, in two different States.
…Chewing through my Sister like she was so much bubble gum.

Look, I locked horns with my Sister’s “guru” - who was simply a person who didn’t have a job, chained through cigarettes…
…And hounded coffee like it was water and she was dying of thirst.
…What I witnessed in Portland Oregon was IDENTICAL to what I witnessed in Eastern Montana.

AA isn’t anything at all special - the other cults have just as good a track-record of getting folks off booze…
…My guess is that even in Scientology one wouldn’t find a fraction of the “sex culture” that one finds in AA.

The people who gave me this information had nothing against AA, they thought it was great, an awesome program…
…It’s not like I cherry picked people who were negative about AA.

 

[maryjk]

He told estesbob that he was wrong about his alcoholism. Estesbob states he’s been sober for 28 years. Now whose word am I gonna take for sticking around in AA? Estesbob, sober in AA for 28 years…or some guy claiming to be a doctor on the Internet who’s never as much as gone to an AA meeting, let alone even have a drinking problem…

I really had backed out of this thread because I don’t really care what people believe about AA or alcoholism. I answered the OP’s question and I was moving on.

But I found this statement so incredibly funny, I had to comment.

What you should have really said was: whose word I am going to take some guy claiming to be sober for 28 years because of AA or some other guy claiming to be a doctor? You don’t know either of these people. Both could be lying, or both could be telling the truth.

I guess you just feel the need to believe the one that reinforces your beliefs.

 

[CopticChristian]

Ahh…I see…

Okay, I missed the part about Coptic writing a book. Sure does explain a whole lot.

Perhaps I should write a counter book to his book full of all the stumpers he couldn’t address here!

Mgray,

which stumpers might those be…

Antabuse…this is not a remedy for a disease it is a form of Operant Conditioning to try to get someone to stop behavior. Operant conditioning has operants that are noted as below and in this case would be a punisher.

Drink, with antabuse, you get sick and vomit. Induced vomiting is the operant to try to change the behavior. The behavior is not a disease.

simplypsychology.org/operant-conditioning.html

• Neutral operants: responses from the environment that neither increase nor decrease the probability of a behavior being repeated.

• Reinforcers: Responses from the environment that increase the probability of a behavior being repeated. Reinforcers can be either positive or negative.

• Punishers: Response from the environment that decrease the likelihood of a behavior being repeated. Punishment weakens behavior.

 

[CopticChristian]

He didn’t write it that I know of, but he did read it. The cover photo clearly showed a wolf, the clear sign of evil, wearing a sheep suit. What we don’t realize is that their is a massive worldwide cover-up designed to help AA and the other 12 Step programs thrive. My guess is that the few dollars that are collected and sent home with the treasurer is being siphoned off. Likely the funds are being used to prop-up African warlords and to promote the denegration of western society as we know it. The big wigs in the medical community are involved in the cover-up. In addition, it sounds as though many of our well meaning Bishops have taken the bait and are being led astray as well.

The whole master plan is coming together as the AA enterprise, which seeks to control world commerce, religion, and politics, has now infiltrated the justice system, the UN, the medical community, all Protestant religions (save the Baptist who don’t drink to start with), and even members of the Catholic church hierarchy. St Ignatious, whose Spiritual Exercises are very similar to the 12 Steps, may have been involved as early as the 16th century. No one really knows for certain, other than Coptic, how deep the AA tenacles reach. It is apparent that AA is really the impetous for the coming New World Order and is really the back bone of all that is wrong with society.

Andrew,

You are close…

soberforever.net/currentresearchOASASstudy.cfm

Now take statistics from independent research and apply them the same way. **If a car was driven right off the lot and only worked 5% of the time no one would buy that car. **And, because no one would buy the car the company providing the shotty automobiles would have to make a better product in order to stay in business. Treatment programs, private and public organizations, provide programs that do not work yet instead of being held accountable the treatment industry remains stagnant and unchanged. Treatment professionals can blame failure on the people they are trying to help. It’s a convenient situation for those working in the current treatment paradigm but it is a danger to everyone else.

The legislated methods of treatment were implemented without any clinical evidence supporting the notion that alcoholics and drug addicts could benefit from group therapy, counseling, and other psychological techniques. As time has gone by and few have recovered, the mental health community has concluded that alcoholics and drug addicts could never completely recover and relapse has become an unexpectedcharacteristic of the “disease.” Rather than improving the treatment methods or trying alternative methods to medical and psychological methods, the treatment community changed its understanding of the malady to fit the poor results achieved by the treatment offered.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic has stated that he is neither an alcoholic, nor does he attend or has ever attended an AA meeting.

It’s funny he attacks the history of AA. We as Americans, our very country has history as well. Some very awful…slavery for example. Yet we are Americans and as far as I’m concerned, proud of it. AA, as with our country has never claimed to be infallible or inerrant as the Catholic Church and the holy Bible have. That’s not what’s in dispute here.

Let it also be shown that, to say; “you don’t have an argument because you don’t go to AA” is very relevant in this debate. Because you can go and observe at an AA meeting. When discussing religion, which AA is not, some faiths will not let you in the door unless you are a member of their church or faith or you are in the process of joining their church or faith. But clearly, I can’t tell a Muslim what it’s like to worship Allah at a mosque when I’ve never been to one.

**Coptic says that alcoholism is not a disease but a theory. Fair enough. That just means he can’t either prove or disprove alcoholism as a disease. (Even though they have a drug called Antabuse used to :quote: Prevent alcoholism) He’s stuck with an opinion which nobody cares about but himself. **
He can’t answer if babies are born with genetic defects as a result of original sin. He believes that souls can become sick (the same word meaning “disease” in Latin) but in no way correlates with the idea that the alcoholic suffers from a spiritual malady. He ridiculs people who read the Big Book about what it says about alcoholism…yet he can’t reference in any medical book where it addresses sin or mentions the word “God”. He also says he doesn’t attribute free time or give money to those sick or suffering from alcohol or drug abuse. He can’t tell us why there are a numerous amount of sober priests in AA. I can go on and on…

All he seems to be doing anymore is making accusations and telling people how “misguided” and “uneducated” they are.

He told estesbob that he was wrong about his alcoholism. Estesbob states he’s been sober for 28 years. Now whose word am I gonna take for sticking around in AA? Estesbob, sober in AA for 28 years…or some guy claiming to be a doctor on the Internet who’s never as much as gone to an AA meeting, let alone even have a drinking problem…

Mgray,

I never had Syphillis, yet I can recognize and treat Syphillis.

I never had gonorrhea and yet I recall discovering it in the eye of a woman and saved her vision.

I don’t have diabetes and can manage that quite well.

You might want to ask your doctor when you report for Cancer if he/she had Cancer. If they have not had Cancer find a doctor that does…good luck with that one…

For your future role in Science…Theories are proposed…they are proven or disproven…until proven they remain a theory…it is the responsibility of those that propose a theory to prove it…it is not the responsibility of anyone to disprove a theory…it is a theory…

The disease model is an unproven theory. I have no need to disprove a theory…

youtube.com/watch?v=mCEkAmYwuno

You venture into genetics and Original Sin…whoa nelly…what genetics class did you take?

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic has stated that he is neither an alcoholic, nor does he attend or has ever attended an AA meeting.

It’s funny he attacks the history of AA. We as Americans, our very country has history as well. Some very awful…slavery for example. Yet we are Americans and as far as I’m concerned, proud of it. AA, as with our country has never claimed to be infallible or inerrant as the Catholic Church and the holy Bible have. That’s not what’s in dispute here.

Let it also be shown that, to say; “you don’t have an argument because you don’t go to AA” is very relevant in this debate. Because you can go and observe at an AA meeting. When discussing religion, which AA is not, some faiths will not let you in the door unless you are a member of their church or faith or you are in the process of joining their church or faith. But clearly, I can’t tell a Muslim what it’s like to worship Allah at a mosque when I’ve never been to one.

**Coptic says that alcoholism is not a disease but a theory. Fair enough. That just means he can’t either prove or disprove alcoholism as a disease. (Even though they have a drug called Antabuse used to :quote: Prevent alcoholism) He’s stuck with an opinion which nobody cares about but himself. **
He can’t answer if babies are born with genetic defects as a result of original sin. He believes that souls can become sick (the same word meaning “disease” in Latin) but in no way correlates with the idea that the alcoholic suffers from a spiritual malady. He ridiculs people who read the Big Book about what it says about alcoholism…yet he can’t reference in any medical book where it addresses sin or mentions the word “God”. He also says he doesn’t attribute free time or give money to those sick or suffering from alcohol or drug abuse. He can’t tell us why there are a numerous amount of sober priests in AA. I can go on and on…

All he seems to be doing anymore is making accusations and telling people how “misguided” and “uneducated” they are.

He told estesbob that he was wrong about his alcoholism. Estesbob states he’s been sober for 28 years. Now whose word am I gonna take for sticking around in AA? Estesbob, sober in AA for 28 years…or some guy claiming to be a doctor on the Internet who’s never as much as gone to an AA meeting, let alone even have a drinking problem…

Mgray,

Alcoholism is a disease is not even a theory, although stated to be a theory…for to be a theory it must be testable…and it is not…

truthpizza.org/logic/testabil.htm

An important property of any statement or claim is whether it is testable. Are there means by which we could decide whether this statement is true? What would we expect to observe if the statement is true? What would we expect not to observe? Most everyday statements are easily tested. If someone says it is raining, this can be tested by looking out the window. We would expect to see droplets falling through the air and puddles on the ground with ripples from the falling drops. We would not expect to see sunshine and dry pavement.

People who agree on what alcoholism is and what prostitution is would not necessarily agree on whether they are included in the definition of “disease” or “slavery” nor is there a practical test to determine who is right. We could get farther by asking what policies are promoted by those making such statements and whether we think these policies would be beneficial. Definitions are based on human usage, not on any independently testable property of the universe.

Your suggestion that I said estob was wrong borders on not telling the truth…I redefined not said he was wrong…two views of the same thing with different language is not indicating someone is wrong it is looking at the same thing from a different point of view. This statement is however uncharitable and borders on dishonesty.

 

[Holly3278]

I really don’t have a problem with Alcoholics Anonymous. I believe that one of my family members who used to be an alcoholic got help through them. Their theological beliefs seem to be consistent or compatible with Catholicism.