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CopticChristian
Guest
Pet,
The problem is that what is done in rehab, in meetings and books does not necessarily correlate.
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The problem is that what is done in rehab, in meetings and books does not necessarily correlate.
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Forkfoot
Guest
Some of the deepest, most spiritually harmonious people I have ever met cite AA as their primary vehicle of transformation. It’s not a religion, but it is a huge movement flying unseen below the radar all over our society and leaving a very big mark. You gotta tap into something profound and transcendent to overcome addiction, and AA helps people lean how to do that. It’s a wonderful thing.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Fork,
No you don’t. People stop drinking, using drugs and all manner of addictions by what is called spontaneous. SMART, St. Jude, St. Gregory have no association with the religion of AA and the people that attend those programs do better in a shorter amount of time.
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Forkfoot
Guest
They get good results. Therefore in my book they are good. You can try to argue about that if you want to, but I’ll think you’re being silly.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Fork,
They get lousy results, in fact no better than a 5% success rate and when compared to other modalities that work they rank 37/47 when compared to other methods that work…the following link will take you to the only data that has been summarized on what works…
behaviortherapy.com/ResearchDiv/whatworks.aspx
look way down at the bottom of the list…AA/12 steps are lousy for and do not get good results…
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Forkfoot
Guest
Re-read my first comment you initially responded to and you’ll see why I can’t take you seriously. I’ve met many people whose lives were transformed profoundly in the program. That makes a pretty convincing argument.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Fork,
As a Physician I take you seriously however I cannot take your personal experience as validation for what I know not to be true.
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Forkfoot
Guest
Okay, but surely as an educated person you’ll understand why the firsthand accounts of many people I know personally weighs more heavily with me than the perspective of some stranger on the internet with some weird anti-AA agenda.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Dr. Reid Hester has no weird anti-AA agenda. Stanton Peele, PhD who wrote The truth about Addiction has no weird anti-AA agenda. SMART, St. Jude, St Gregory have no weird AA agenda.
This link to AA not the only way is not a wierd anti-AA agenda. The book by the same name is not wierd either. To say that there are better ways than AA that work is not weird
.
aanottheonlyway.com/
The Book inside Rehab detalis how little is known by those that work in the halls of AA, in 12 step rehab and how little is known about alternate modes of addressing this problem. What is wierd is that any suggestion that AA is not the only way is seen as weird.
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Forkfoot
Guest
I’m sure that it is not the only way, doc. I’m not saying that it is the only way, only that it’s a way which has delivered fantastic results for many people whom I know personally. You can dismiss this all you want for whatever weird reasons you might have, or you can just quit grinding that weird axe at me and go bark up some other tree.
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Forkfoot
Guest
The reason I’m saying “weird” is because I’m standing here telling you that I know AA works because I know many people for whom it has worked very well, and you’re standing there trying to argue with me about that. That to me is not a normal thing to do; it’s weird. You gotta have some weird, rigid thought structures locked in place to keep pushing and pushing in the face of such blatant and undeniable facts. It’s the sort of thing a crazy person would do, frankly.
Up til the 1990s martial arts enthusiasts used to debate endlessly about which martial arts were the most effective, what techniques work and what don’t, theory, theory, theory, blah, blah, blah. Then in the '90s some people got the brilliant idea to just start locking martial artists in a cage together and having them fight, and the sport of mixed martial arts was born. And from that day on you could never say something like “Brazilian jiu jitsu doesn’t work” without looking like an imbecile, because everyone saw the Brazilian jiu jitsu fighter going around kicking butts and taking names, plain as day. And the debate about whether it was necessary for a martial artist to learn the grappling arts was over. Anyway doc, in this situation I’d say you’re the guy who’s still trying to argue that Brazilian jiu jitsu is an ineffective martial art.
Up til the 1990s martial arts enthusiasts used to debate endlessly about which martial arts were the most effective, what techniques work and what don’t, theory, theory, theory, blah, blah, blah. Then in the '90s some people got the brilliant idea to just start locking martial artists in a cage together and having them fight, and the sport of mixed martial arts was born. And from that day on you could never say something like “Brazilian jiu jitsu doesn’t work” without looking like an imbecile, because everyone saw the Brazilian jiu jitsu fighter going around kicking butts and taking names, plain as day. And the debate about whether it was necessary for a martial artist to learn the grappling arts was over. Anyway doc, in this situation I’d say you’re the guy who’s still trying to argue that Brazilian jiu jitsu is an ineffective martial art.
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Cat
Guest
Frankly, I don’t see how any alcoholic makes it through the struggle to stay sober, considering the Exalted Place that alcohol holds in U.S. culture, including Christian culture.
You don’t dare say anything against alcohol. People, including Christians (especially Catholic Christians) jump up and say “Well, MOST people drink responsibly.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure they do. Tell that to all the poor families whose relatives were killed in drunk driving accidents last week by “responsible” drinkers who just had little lapse. As a Catholic, I don’t favor a death penalty, BUT…if we have to have a death penalty, I think it should be reserved for those who drink and then kill someone, especially when they drink and drive. Grrrr…
I work in a hospital, and people there should know better, right? We have college degrees and in some cases, post-graduate study and doctoral degrees. Our hospital mission statement talks about “caring for people.” Fat baloney! All the time, people–not just kids, but people my age! (55) sit around the break room and talk about how smashed they were after the party they attended, and how they probably should not have driven home. OMG!!! I have to leave when people start talking about these situations. But if I called the cops to report them, even the cops would say, “Sorry, lady, we can’t do anything about it.” Of course they can’t. No one can. People keep drinking and driving, and no one can do a thing because everyone does it, including the cops, the judges, the lawyers. The only people who don’t drink and drive seem to be the people who don’t drink.
But it’s OK. MOST people drink responsibly. Alcohol is a right, not a privilege.
All this crazy talk of banning guns. Alcohol kills so many people in so many ways, and destroys so many families and relationships and even companies. Yet, no talk of banning alcohol. Of course it will never be banned, because we tried it during Prohibition and the result was disastrous and we’re still trying to deal with the negative consequences of Prohibition today. (Not sure why people think this won’t happen again if guns are banned.)
Anyway, considering how alcohol is absolutely untouchable, and is paraded across the television screens during most major sporting events, it’s amazing to me that anyone who is alcoholic is able to stop drinking. I admire them. I am a (pop) soda addict; to me, pop is not just a sweet drink, it’s puppies and singing on hillside, because those ads have worked themselves into my very soul. To give up pop would be to give up life, at least in my thinking. I gave it up for two years once, and went back to it because life wasn’t as good without it. I don’t see how alcoholics are able to put their past good associations with alcohol behind them, especially when everyone else is drinking and having such a great time.
So IMO, ANYTHING that helps an alcoholic to stop drinking and stay sober is GOOD, and we shouldn’t criticize it. If someone has a different method than AA, that’s good, because AA doesn’t help everyone. (I tried it for overeating and pop addiction, and it was a joke to me.) But there are plenty of people for whom AA works–to take away their success is just wrong. We should be glad when ANYONE is able to give up alcohol, considering how our U.S. culture is soaked with alcohol.
You don’t dare say anything against alcohol. People, including Christians (especially Catholic Christians) jump up and say “Well, MOST people drink responsibly.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure they do. Tell that to all the poor families whose relatives were killed in drunk driving accidents last week by “responsible” drinkers who just had little lapse. As a Catholic, I don’t favor a death penalty, BUT…if we have to have a death penalty, I think it should be reserved for those who drink and then kill someone, especially when they drink and drive. Grrrr…
I work in a hospital, and people there should know better, right? We have college degrees and in some cases, post-graduate study and doctoral degrees. Our hospital mission statement talks about “caring for people.” Fat baloney! All the time, people–not just kids, but people my age! (55) sit around the break room and talk about how smashed they were after the party they attended, and how they probably should not have driven home. OMG!!! I have to leave when people start talking about these situations. But if I called the cops to report them, even the cops would say, “Sorry, lady, we can’t do anything about it.” Of course they can’t. No one can. People keep drinking and driving, and no one can do a thing because everyone does it, including the cops, the judges, the lawyers. The only people who don’t drink and drive seem to be the people who don’t drink.
But it’s OK. MOST people drink responsibly. Alcohol is a right, not a privilege.
All this crazy talk of banning guns. Alcohol kills so many people in so many ways, and destroys so many families and relationships and even companies. Yet, no talk of banning alcohol. Of course it will never be banned, because we tried it during Prohibition and the result was disastrous and we’re still trying to deal with the negative consequences of Prohibition today. (Not sure why people think this won’t happen again if guns are banned.)
Anyway, considering how alcohol is absolutely untouchable, and is paraded across the television screens during most major sporting events, it’s amazing to me that anyone who is alcoholic is able to stop drinking. I admire them. I am a (pop) soda addict; to me, pop is not just a sweet drink, it’s puppies and singing on hillside, because those ads have worked themselves into my very soul. To give up pop would be to give up life, at least in my thinking. I gave it up for two years once, and went back to it because life wasn’t as good without it. I don’t see how alcoholics are able to put their past good associations with alcohol behind them, especially when everyone else is drinking and having such a great time.
So IMO, ANYTHING that helps an alcoholic to stop drinking and stay sober is GOOD, and we shouldn’t criticize it. If someone has a different method than AA, that’s good, because AA doesn’t help everyone. (I tried it for overeating and pop addiction, and it was a joke to me.) But there are plenty of people for whom AA works–to take away their success is just wrong. We should be glad when ANYONE is able to give up alcohol, considering how our U.S. culture is soaked with alcohol.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Glad you got that out Cat. I agree with you. 
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CopticChristian
Guest
Fork,
You know AA worked for some but that does not translate into a world experience and does not translate into what experts know and tell you is true. I posted a book that has summarized what works.
The book I posted is a unbiased review of what works and AA works miserably. The MMA was started by the Jiu Jitsu guys to show what Jiu Jitsu can do. In a way the Book provided is just what you say Jiu Jitsu did, it showed that Jiu Jitsu works. The book took all the modalities available, put them into the ring, they were evaluated to see what works and AA lost.
Believe as you wish. Know that what anyone person experiences does not negate or discount the facts about what works and what doesn’t work.
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Forkfoot
Guest
Experts can say whatever they want; you’re a theorist trying to explain away something I’ve seen over and over again in practice, in real life. It’s cartoonishly absurd. I’m not going to waste another second of my life debating with you.
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CopticChristian
Guest
These thoughts are basically coming from an emperical point of view. What I experience and only what I experience has relvance.
Reality is that in the field of medicine and most fields there is Empericism and Rationalism.
I observe that Africans that have large stools have a low incidence of colon cancer. I discover that by observation that the diet is high in fiber. I study and discover that transit time and reduced toxins from the diet lowers the incidence of colon cancer. I study those with colon cancer and discover their diet lacks roughage. I then point out that those having a high fiber diet may lower your incidence of colon cancer.
I discover some are helped by AA. I discover that it is touted as a disease and the disease model=12 step religion of AA. I discover that many fail. Those that succeed, succed and are adamant about being diseased. This does not make sense. How can someone insist they are diseased? What kind of disease you ask? A spiritual disease. If it is a disease what are you doing in a meeting without professionals or anything to treat the disease and why would anyone want to remain diseased. The answer, the disease is a myth. The halls of AA=religion=confess your sins to get well, although you never get well, you are always diseased and you are forever tied to the halls of AA. Powerless over carbon/hydrogen/oxygen? It may take the average person 5 years to get through the program and succeed, if they succeed. The Church says you are not powerless for all are under the power of sin and with grace and prayer you can overcome sin although you may always sin.
SMART, Stanton Peele PhD. and others say it is not disease it is habit. It is a problem that can be overcome without believing you are diseased, statistics prove that these methods work better than the disease model and in fact provide other avenues to resolve the problems and when you are done with it in shorter time, with better success, it is just a thing of the past that you did and you are not forever and a day branded as having a disease that is not a disease, just a mistake, because you learn…You Are Not Your Behavior.
Anyone that has a disease should first ask, how did I get it? Then ask what kind of disease? Then ask how do you treat it? Then ask can others catch it? Then ask why you spend your time with others that have the disease, in halls with no experts, like lepers, learning to accept you have a disease, then discover that you continually tell people you have a disease…treatment???
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Mgray82
Guest
Muay Thai all the way my brother. The fight starts on your feet
This thread has been here for months. Coptic will see it no other way. But thanks for your contribution. And as a recovered alcoholic…thanks you.
God bless.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Mgray,Muay Thai all the way my brother. The fight starts on your feet
This thread has been here for months. Coptic will see it no other way. But thanks for your contribution. And as a recovered alcoholic…thanks you.
God bless.
Most fights start on your feet and routinely end up on the ground and if you know that then you take it to the ground where most not knowing what to do on the ground get turned into pretzels.
Having thought of yourself as an alcoholic having recovered as you think about it now knowing that it would be possible to know that in the future what you will be is not what you are now, if it were possible to believe that as you reflect on your situation now would you want to believe that you are free of a problem, resolved a problem, knowing that you could have a problem, like everyone else or do you want to believe that you will always be recovering as you were taught in AA?
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acacia12
Guest
I left AA about 5/6 months ago and I’m still abstinant
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Mgray82
Guest
Coptic, I was a state sanctioned Muay Thai kickboxer for 3 years of my life also trained in Jiu Jitsu and MMA. Before that, I trained Tae Kwon Do as a youth and later boxing.
I have a history of fighting. Most favorably alcohol
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