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godismybestpal
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Is the twelve steps of AA something good and has it helped you in you catholicism?
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petitfleur
Guest
I can say I converted because of them! When I first came to AA I was anti religion, in AA we are constantly exploring spirituality, four years led me to xcristianity and eventually Catholisism. Regular confession and daily examination of conscience fit perfectly into having a sponsor and daily inventories.
O
omegapd
Guest
I had left the faith when I joined AA and after about 2 years of working the program and becoming more spiritual, I got a tremendous calling from the Holy Spirit to get back to my Catholic roots. That was 2005 and I have been faithful ever since.
The program saved my marriage and possibly my life.
The program saved my marriage and possibly my life.
M
Mgray82
Guest
Ditto…except I wasn’t necessarily anti-religion because I was Protestant.I can say I converted because of them! When I first came to AA I was anti religion, in AA we are constantly exploring spirituality, four years led me to xcristianity and eventually Catholisism. Regular confession and daily examination of conscience fit perfectly into having a sponsor and daily inventories.
Anyways, great post!
I’ll be celebrating my second sober birthday in January, if the Good Lord permits me to make it to that day.
-God bless
Z
zenith15
Guest
AA teaches newcomers that they can pick their own definition of a “higher power”, and that if they did not like the god they were taught about in childhood (if any), they can pick out one they like better, or just use “nature”, the AA group itself, or even a doorknob as a higher power. One man in the Big Book of AA used a bedpan. A sponsor from AA once told her sponsee that she was to write down all the qualities that she would like God to have if she could “invent a god”, and then once she had done so, she was told to “make that her new conception of god”.
AA’s program was based upon the theories of “The Oxford Group”, a religious group that met in one another’s homes and practiced certain doctrines that some feel were cultish. Bill Wilson was a member and took the 12 steps of AA directly from this group, altering them slightly for alcoholics.
They have members in AA from many different faiths, and some people tend to make AA their spiritual home rather than a church.
AA’s program was based upon the theories of “The Oxford Group”, a religious group that met in one another’s homes and practiced certain doctrines that some feel were cultish. Bill Wilson was a member and took the 12 steps of AA directly from this group, altering them slightly for alcoholics.
They have members in AA from many different faiths, and some people tend to make AA their spiritual home rather than a church.
M
Mgray82
Guest
Sigh…AA teaches newcomers that they can pick their own definition of a “higher power”, and that if they did not like the god they were taught about in childhood (if any), they can pick out one they like better, or just use “nature”, the AA group itself, or even a doorknob as a higher power. One man in the Big Book of AA used a bedpan. A sponsor from AA once told her sponsee that she was to write down all the qualities that she would like God to have if she could “invent a god”, and then once she had done so, she was told to “make that her new conception of god”.
AA’s program was based upon the theories of “The Oxford Group”, a religious group that met in one another’s homes and practiced certain doctrines that some feel were cultish. Bill Wilson was a member and took the 12 steps of AA directly from this group, altering them slightly for alcoholics.
They have members in AA from many different faiths, and some people tend to make AA their spiritual home rather than a church.
M
Mgray82
Guest
Here is the “doctrine” of AA…AA teaches newcomers that they can pick their own definition of a “higher power”, and that if they did not like the god they were taught about in childhood (if any), they can pick out one they like better, or just use “nature”, the AA group itself, or even a doorknob as a higher power. One man in the Big Book of AA used a bedpan. A sponsor from AA once told her sponsee that she was to write down all the qualities that she would like God to have if she could “invent a god”, and then once she had done so, she was told to “make that her new conception of god”.
AA’s program was based upon the theories of “The Oxford Group”, a religious group that met in one another’s homes and practiced certain doctrines that some feel were cultish. Bill Wilson was a member and took the 12 steps of AA directly from this group, altering them slightly for alcoholics.
They have members in AA from many different faiths, and some people tend to make AA their spiritual home rather than a church.
The Twelve Traditions Of Alcoholics Anonymous
- Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.
- For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
- The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
- Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
- Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
- An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
- Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
- Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
- A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.
- Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
- Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.
- Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
Z
zenith15
Guest
I didn’t say it was “problematic for an alcoholic who is catholic”. I simply pointed out their beliefs with regard to a “higher power”, which is that anything at all can be your higher power, be it “god” (of any description), nature, the AA group, inanimate objects, etc and that whatever power YOU choose has the capability to “restore you to sanity”–as long as the “power” isn’t you yourself. Since you mentioned it, though, I would have to say that doesn’t really fall in line with Catholic teaching.
G
godismybestpal
Guest
why not just go to a catholic AA group!I didn’t say it was “problematic for an alcoholic who is catholic”. I simply pointed out their beliefs with regard to a “higher power”, which is that anything at all can be your higher power, be it “god” (of any description), nature, the AA group, inanimate objects, etc and that whatever power YOU choose has the capability to “restore you to sanity”–as long as the “power” isn’t you yourself. Since you mentioned it, though, I would have to say that doesn’t really fall in line with Catholic teaching.
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Mgray82
Guest
…it doesn’t fall anywhere with the Catholic Church…I didn’t say it was “problematic for an alcoholic who is catholic”. I simply pointed out their beliefs with regard to a “higher power”, which is that anything at all can be your higher power, be it “god” (of any description), nature, the AA group, inanimate objects, etc and that whatever power YOU choose has the capability to “restore you to sanity”–as long as the “power” isn’t you yourself. Since you mentioned it, though, I would have to say that doesn’t really fall in line with Catholic teaching.
AA does not teach about God. It teaches people how to quit drinking…that’s all.
I provided the Twelve Traditions of AA.
The only thing AA says about God is to find him;
The Twelve Steps Of Alcoholics Anonymous
- We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
- Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
- Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
- Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
- Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
- Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
- Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
- Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
- Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
- Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
- Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Might I add in your history of AA that you research Sister Ignatia…and I’ll provide a link;
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Ignatia
You’ll find, even though AA is an interfaith group…there are prominent Catholic roots in the Twelve Steps.
Might i add all of which saved my life, and brought me home to the church. So in a way I thank God for giving me AA. It led me home.
God Bless
Z
zenith15
Guest
I’m fully aware of Sister Ignatia’s involvement. but thanks for the link. AA does not teach people how to stop drinking. It’s a program that teaches a certain type of “spirituality”, and tells people that if they confess their sins to other members, pray to the god of their choice, etc they will stop drinking as a result. This has absolutely no basis in medical fact or evidence-based treatment. Although God may of course heal whom He chooses and I don’t deny that–it happens all the time–He does not require that they be in AA for Him to do so. We don’t tell people with other disorders, be they physical or mental, to go to such meetings, and follow such steps in order to be cured. They may choose to pray to God for healing and if they do so good for them, but we still provide them with evidence based treatment, medication if called for, therapy, etc. We don’t just tell people “go to these meetings and do the steps and you will be healed” and then, if they are NOT healed as a result, tell them"well, you must be ‘one of those unfortunates’ mentioned in the Big Book who cannot be honest, or you didn’t do one of the steps correctly, or something–but keep coming back and keep trying over and over and over". No, we offer them medical treatment for their medical disorder.
AA was put together in the 1930’s by a stockbroker and a proctologist based on the methods of the Oxford Group, as I mentioned. AT that time there was very little in the way of successful medical treatment for alcoholics or addicts. That is no longer true–yet AA has steadfastly refused to incorporate new scientific facts and findings into the program, nor have they updated the Big Book to be better understood by a new generation–it is filled with dated terminology and references to people and events in the distant past that almost no one today would recognize, as well as extremely sexist sections (the chapter “To The Wives”, ostensibly written by Bill’s wife, was actually written by Bill himself, and assumes that all alcoholics are men, and that their wives are “nags and wet blankets” that drive hubby to drink or to cavort with other women. etc).
AA presents itself as a highly successful program, however, AA’s very own triennial survey of membership, it was reported that only 5% of incoming members are still there, sober, one year later. After this became public, they ceased asking that question in the surveys.
Support groups are fine as far as that goes, but they are not cures. God can most certainly heal someone of ANY disease of course, but He does not need AA to do so.
All that being said, if people are comfortable in AA and feel it is helping them, more power to them. Fr. Serpa here has in past linked to a Catholic 12 step page that may be helpful to some, here:
12-step-review.org/
and here is a link to some other support groups:
orange-papers.org/orange-alt_list.html
AA was put together in the 1930’s by a stockbroker and a proctologist based on the methods of the Oxford Group, as I mentioned. AT that time there was very little in the way of successful medical treatment for alcoholics or addicts. That is no longer true–yet AA has steadfastly refused to incorporate new scientific facts and findings into the program, nor have they updated the Big Book to be better understood by a new generation–it is filled with dated terminology and references to people and events in the distant past that almost no one today would recognize, as well as extremely sexist sections (the chapter “To The Wives”, ostensibly written by Bill’s wife, was actually written by Bill himself, and assumes that all alcoholics are men, and that their wives are “nags and wet blankets” that drive hubby to drink or to cavort with other women. etc).
AA presents itself as a highly successful program, however, AA’s very own triennial survey of membership, it was reported that only 5% of incoming members are still there, sober, one year later. After this became public, they ceased asking that question in the surveys.
Support groups are fine as far as that goes, but they are not cures. God can most certainly heal someone of ANY disease of course, but He does not need AA to do so.
All that being said, if people are comfortable in AA and feel it is helping them, more power to them. Fr. Serpa here has in past linked to a Catholic 12 step page that may be helpful to some, here:
12-step-review.org/
and here is a link to some other support groups:
orange-papers.org/orange-alt_list.html
M
Mgray82
Guest
Let’s establish this; the Big Book is not infallible.I’m fully aware of Sister Ignatia’s involvement. but thanks for the link. AA does not teach people how to stop drinking. It’s a program that teaches a certain type of “spirituality”, and tells people that if they confess their sins to other members, pray to the god of their choice, etc they will stop drinking as a result. This has absolutely no basis in medical fact or evidence-based treatment. Although God may of course heal whom He chooses and I don’t deny that–it happens all the time–He does not require that they be in AA for Him to do so. We don’t tell people with other disorders, be they physical or mental, to go to such meetings, and follow such steps in order to be cured. They may choose to pray to God for healing and if they do so good for them, but we still provide them with evidence based treatment, medication if called for, therapy, etc. We don’t just tell people “go to these meetings and do the steps and you will be healed” and then, if they are NOT healed as a result, tell them"well, you must be ‘one of those unfortunates’ mentioned in the Big Book who cannot be honest, or you didn’t do one of the steps correctly, or something–but keep coming back and keep trying over and over and over". No, we offer them medical treatment for their medical disorder.
AA was put together in the 1930’s by a stockbroker and a proctologist based on the methods of the Oxford Group, as I mentioned. AT that time there was very little in the way of successful medical treatment for alcoholics or addicts. That is no longer true–yet AA has steadfastly refused to incorporate new scientific facts and findings into the program, nor have they updated the Big Book to be better understood by a new generation–it is filled with dated terminology and references to people and events in the distant past that almost no one today would recognize, as well as extremely sexist sections (the chapter “To The Wives”, ostensibly written by Bill’s wife, was actually written by Bill himself, and assumes that all alcoholics are men, and that their wives are “nags and wet blankets” that drive hubby to drink or to cavort with other women. etc).
AA presents itself as a highly successful program, however, AA’s very own triennial survey of membership, it was reported that only 5% of incoming members are still there, sober, one year later. After this became public, they ceased asking that question in the surveys.
Support groups are fine as far as that goes, but they are not cures. God can most certainly heal someone of ANY disease of course, but He does not need AA to do so.
All that being said, if people are comfortable in AA and feel it is helping them, more power to them. Fr. Serpa here has in past linked to a Catholic 12 step page that may be helpful to some, here:
12-step-review.org/
and here is a link to some other support groups:
orange-papers.org/orange-alt_list.html
Secondly, AA and the Big Book are meant to be “suggestive only” and “the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking”. Therefore, I don’t have to do anything AA or the Big Book says…and I can become a member, change my mind and not be a member, then change my mind again and decide to be a member. So in essence, I can quit AA and rejoin again 10 times a day or times infinity. I can also continue to drink as long as I have a desire to stop.
Therefore, you have no argument because AA doesn’t “teach” anything. (I continue to urge you to read the 12 steps and traditions)
I do agree with you that the Big Book needs revised. I have heard there are committees working on that.
One of the things AA “suggests” that you do is find a sponsor. This could be anybody…so in the case of a Catholic such as you and I, that means my priest could be my sponsor…so what’s the big deal with that? Another point I would make is, would it be better for an alcoholic to be drunk at a bar spilling his guts to everybody in the room, or behind the closed doors of a sober alcoholic who can be trusted as a closed mouth friend? Again, in our case it would be our priest…may it also be noted that the word “sponsor” is not in the Big Book.
Lastly, you provided no medical evidence to your claims…only allegations. Last time I checked there still isn’t a cure for alcoholism…AA has no opinion or suggestions on seeking medical treatment. So AA can’t tell me not to go to the doctor because I think I have a mental or substantial medical ailment which may also be motivating my drinking.
Who said God can’t cure or stop the alcoholic from drinking? I didn’t say that. AA isn’t for everyone, if you can find something that works better for you so be it. My hats off to you.
I know my program, I’ve been sober 2 years now.
M
Mgray82
Guest
Chapter 11 “A Vision For You” page 164;
Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little.
From the First Edition Forward in the Big Book;
We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word. There are no fees or dues whatsoever. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted. (1939)
From the Second Edition Forward in the Big Book;
Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any particular medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.
Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are an accurate cross section of America, and in distant lands, the same democratic enening-up process is now going on. By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a prinkling of Moslems and Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women. (1974)
Can you provide in the 12 Steps or Tradition where it claims to teach anything? Can you provide in the Big Book where it says AA teaches spirituality or to make the group your higher power? Can you provide in any literature where it denies medical intervention?
Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little.
From the First Edition Forward in the Big Book;
We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word. There are no fees or dues whatsoever. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted. (1939)
From the Second Edition Forward in the Big Book;
Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any particular medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.
Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are an accurate cross section of America, and in distant lands, the same democratic enening-up process is now going on. By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a prinkling of Moslems and Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women. (1974)
Can you provide in the 12 Steps or Tradition where it claims to teach anything? Can you provide in the Big Book where it says AA teaches spirituality or to make the group your higher power? Can you provide in any literature where it denies medical intervention?
M
Mgray82
Guest
Also regarding your history, it was 6 steps originally before Bill changed it to 12.
thejaywalker.com/pages/sixstep.html
thejaywalker.com/pages/sixstep.html
S
SteveVH
Guest
I am married to a recovering alcoholic. I just want to say God bless all of you who struggle with this disease. Your sobriety means everything to those who love you, not to mention your own well being. You guys are truly my heroes.
M
Mgray82
Guest
Last refutation;
Chapter 8 “To Wives” page 104;
WITH FEW EXCEPTIONS, our book thus far has spoken of men. But what we have said applies quite as much to women. Our activities in behalf of women who drink are on the increase. There is every evidence that women regain their health as readily as men if they try our suggestions.
–
The first woman in AA was Syvia K. She wasn’t a member of AA until after the Big Book was written. Her personal story can be found in the second and third addition. AA is not sexist.
PS. I live in Ohio and I’ve been to Founders Day in Akron, Ohio twice. Akron being the “holy land” of AA. I’ve been to Doctor Bob’s house and all of the sites (the Gatehouse, the Mayflower Hotel, etc.) I know my history.
Chapter 8 “To Wives” page 104;
WITH FEW EXCEPTIONS, our book thus far has spoken of men. But what we have said applies quite as much to women. Our activities in behalf of women who drink are on the increase. There is every evidence that women regain their health as readily as men if they try our suggestions.
–
The first woman in AA was Syvia K. She wasn’t a member of AA until after the Big Book was written. Her personal story can be found in the second and third addition. AA is not sexist.
PS. I live in Ohio and I’ve been to Founders Day in Akron, Ohio twice. Akron being the “holy land” of AA. I’ve been to Doctor Bob’s house and all of the sites (the Gatehouse, the Mayflower Hotel, etc.) I know my history.
A
Armor_of_Light
Guest
AA helped me a lot the first few years and I automatically tied it in with my catholic faith.Is the twelve steps of AA something good and has it helped you in you catholicism?
I have been sober 13 years. I stopped going to meetings 8 years ago.
F
FrugalRacer
Guest
If you think you have a problem with alcohol, I would highly suggest going to an AA meeting and talking to some sober alcoholics.
As a cradle Catholic and member of AA, I have not seen anything in my understanding of the 12 steps that interferes with or goes against the Catholic Church. I believe allowing alcoholics to use their concept of a higher power was meant to make the AA program as inclusive as possible. I have no problem talking with fellow AA’s who come from different faith backgrounds. When I am in a meeting or talking with another alcoholic, I am trying to help myself and them stay sober.
Hope this helps!
As a cradle Catholic and member of AA, I have not seen anything in my understanding of the 12 steps that interferes with or goes against the Catholic Church. I believe allowing alcoholics to use their concept of a higher power was meant to make the AA program as inclusive as possible. I have no problem talking with fellow AA’s who come from different faith backgrounds. When I am in a meeting or talking with another alcoholic, I am trying to help myself and them stay sober.
Hope this helps!
M
Mgray82
Guest
Great post with a lot of truth to it.If you think you have a problem with alcohol, I would highly suggest going to an AA meeting and talking to some sober alcoholics.
As a cradle Catholic and member of AA, I have not seen anything in my understanding of the 12 steps that interferes with or goes against the Catholic Church. I believe allowing alcoholics to use their concept of a higher power was meant to make the AA program as inclusive as possible. I have no problem talking with fellow AA’s who come from different faith backgrounds. When I am in a meeting or talking with another alcoholic, I am trying to help myself and them stay sober.
Hope this helps!
The Big Book is often take by certain people as almost a replacement of the bible for alcoholics. Perhaps to some people it is…
The Big Book as I stated in a previous post in not inerrant. It’s not infallible. It’s more or less a text book for “suggestions” and ideas for how to stay sober. But some religious, fundamentalists will read way too much into this and start making accusations and assumptions before they do any investigating or reading on the matter.
Second point, there are men and women of other faiths in AA. To someone who is in the grasps of an alcoholic addiction, chances are telling them to become catholic or Christian for the matter will certainly not sober them up. Especially if they grew up Jewish, or some other faith.
My motto is; AA is church for me in a sense that, it’s where I go to talk about God and alcoholism (not church in a literal sense). Mass is where I go to give all thanks and worship to the God of my understanding.
God bless
E
estesbob
Guest
Absolutely. AA and God got me sober-28 years and countingIs the twelve steps of AA something good and has it helped you in you catholicism?
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