AA

[maryjk]

Is the twelve steps of AA something good and has it helped you in you catholicism?

I can only speak for my father, now dead.

He joined AA 25 years before he died. He only stayed in for a year or two. It never lead him back to the Church. And it never addressed any real problems he had.

After belonging for two (or so) years, he left.

He never drank again.

Did AA help him quit drinking? Maybe. Did it help him stay sober? Nope. Was it good for his religion? No.

 

[CopticChristian]

I can only speak for my father, now dead.

He joined AA 25 years before he died. He only stayed in for a year or two. It never lead him back to the Church. And it never addressed any real problems he had.

After belonging for two (or so) years, he left.

He never drank again.

Did AA help him quit drinking? Maybe. Did it help him stay sober? Nope. Was it good for his religion? No.

Mary,

One persons experience or any experience is not and should not be the judge of anything. I am sad for your Father, now dead, many people have parents that were troubled.

What makes people drink is based on a list of so many reasons…

because I am tired
because I am anxious
because it’s my birthday
because it monday, tuesday, wednesday

only they know…what is true and you will find this in the Big Book of AA…people drink because they like the effects…the real question is what is the motiviation and only they know…

What makes people stop is finding the reason that drinking no longer makes any sense and this comes from asking “why”…this question causes someone to find motivation and a reason to change. When there is a reason to change then change occurs. Until that reason is found then the behavior continues.

I am sad for your dad.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

You accuse me of lying. What AA establishes has nothing to do with the Supreme Court.

Will you ask for forgiveness in the accusation that I am a liar if I am able to convince you that I am not a liar?

What arguments do I propose that have no evidence? I have proposed no arguments only facts. You dispute fact not argument.

Help me understand your anger.

Here are some facts for you while you ponder your response…

morerevealed.com/library/resist/r_chap_4.htm

Nothing to ask repentance for, and I’m not angry

From your source;

Notwithstanding this unanimity, the issue remains unsettled in the sense that the U.S. Supreme Court has not ruled on this issue and has specifically declined to do so by failing to take up the opportunity to review appeals of two of these decisions (Griffin v. Coughlin and Warner v. OCDP).

In any case, I get your point.

AA does have the word “God” (or the name rather). So this obviously makes a problem with our Atheistic government.

Another joke would be, look at Scientology. They’re a religion.

That’s besides the point.

Here in Ohio, the court can and does assign people to AA. First they deliver the party the verdict…usually to see a “drug counsellor” who refers them to AA. Gives them a sheet which requires signatures of the chair person of the meeting which is to be returned to the court appointed drug counselor as proof of attendance. Hence, by law they have to attend AA.

How do I know this??..I’ve been the guilty party.

The government won’t grant me tax exemption for the meeting I started at my local parish…but they’ll grant tax exemption to Scientology…

 

[CopticChristian]

Nothing to ask repentance for, and I’m not angry

From your source;

Notwithstanding this unanimity, the issue remains unsettled in the sense that the U.S. Supreme Court has not ruled on this issue and has specifically declined to do so by failing to take up the opportunity to review appeals of two of these decisions (Griffin v. Coughlin and Warner v. OCDP).

In any case, I get your point.

AA does have the word “God” (or the name rather). So this obviously makes a problem with our Atheistic government.

Another joke would be, look at Scientology. They’re a religion.

That’s besides the point.

**Here in Ohio, the court can and does assign people to AA. First they deliver the party the verdict…usually to see a “drug counsellor” who refers them to AA. Gives them a sheet which requires signatures of the chair person of the meeting which is to be returned to the court appointed drug counselor as proof of attendance. Hence, by law they have to attend AA. **

How do I know this??..I’ve been the guilty party.

The government won’t grant me tax exemption for the meeting I started at my local parish…but they’ll grant tax exemption to Scientology…

M,

The Supreme Court upheld an opinion, ie agreed and the refusal to hear other appeals is consensus that those Circuit Courts have it correct.

Concerning your own personal experience, if you knew then, what you know now and told any lawyer or Judge that you believe AA is a religion and that the courts based on those findings cannot force you to attend AA, they would have to agree to an alternative or be violating your rights. Your rights were violated due to “ignorance of the law” and there is no motivation on behalf of the government to educate you.

Anyone in a similar circumstance can say that it is a violation of the establishment clause to force anyone to go to AA and ask for SMART, SOS or any other program including St. Jude, St. Gregory of Stanton Peele Life Process Program.

If you don’t know then you do…

 

[Mgray82]

M,

The Supreme Court upheld an opinion, ie agreed and the refusal to hear other appeals is consensus that those Circuit Courts have it correct.

Concerning your own personal experience, if you knew then, what you know now and told any lawyer or Judge that you believe AA is a religion and that the courts based on those findings cannot force you to attend AA, they would have to agree to an alternative or be violating your rights. Your rights were violated due to “ignorance of the law” and there is no motivation on behalf of the government to educate you.

Anyone in a similar circumstance can say that it is a violation of the establishment clause to force anyone to go to AA and ask for SMART, SOS or any other program including St. Jude, St. Gregory of Stanton Peele Life Process Program.

If you don’t know then you do…

…because they consider it religious activity…not because they consider AA a religion.

AA does include God. This is a religious term…not a religion itself. (One nation under God, in God we trust) The Supreme Court isn’t so stupid as to render benefits and conditions as religious to a group that doesn’t consider themselves a religion.

And that’s what you originally said…that AA is, under the Supreme Court a religion. In which it is not (ie, they don’t have religious governmental benefits). This is why I said; if I start an AA meeting at my parish, we won’t get religious tax exemption.

Again, I get your point. I’m with you. And it’s a shame how our government is trying to take away our freedom of religion as a country. But what you originally stated, that AA is considered a religion under the supreme court is false!

They can’t say AA is a religion when AA is telling them they’re not! How can you not understand this?

 

[Mgray82]

You’re trying to back up your argument with lawsuits. Give me a break…I can find something to sue McDonald’s over if I tried hard enough. Look at the atheists with their lawsuit over the cross from the twin towers wreckage of 9/11.

It’s not a religion. The Supreme Court HAS NOT deemed Alcoholics Anonymous a religion no faster than they’ve deemed fasting a religion.

 

[CopticChristian]

…because they consider it religious activity…not because they consider AA a religion.

AA does include God. This is a religious term…not a religion itself. (One nation under God, in God we trust) **The Supreme Court isn’t so stupid as to render benefits and conditions as religious to a group that doesn’t consider themselves a religion. **And that’s what you originally said…that AA is, under the Supreme Court a religion. In which it is not (ie, they don’t have religious governmental benefits). This is why I said; if I start an AA meeting at my parish, we won’t get religious tax exemption.

Again, I get your point. I’m with you. And it’s a shame how our government is trying to take away our freedom of religion as a country. But what you originally stated, that AA is considered a religion under the supreme court is false!

They can’t say AA is a religion when AA is telling them they’re not! How can you not understand this?

M

You are adding to what a religion is. The Supreme Court agreed with a lower court finding and that is agreement with that finding, it was not overturned to say no it is not a religion.

I understand lots.

 

[Mgray82]

M

You are adding to what a religion is. The Supreme Court agreed with a lower court finding and that is agreement with that finding, it was not overturned to say no it is not a religion.

I understand lots.

You are not refuting my argument from above. You merely conversed literally in a circle.

Any logical American, regardless of religion or not could read this and completely understand. There are simple items you are not accepting.

Seems to be almost like you’re in “denial”.

 

[Mgray82]

I’d like to also challenge your disease concept on alcoholism as opposed to the medical dictionary’s definition of it.

Please explain to me how alcoholism is not a disease so I can squash this argument as well…

 

[Mgray82]

Alcoholism is a disease! 100%

I’m going to provide proof.

Example A) Sam is considered by AA terms to be “non-alcoholic”. Sam hasn’t had a drink of alcohol in 5 years. One night Sam buys a 6 pack of Bud Light, drinks 4 of them. Acquires drunkeness shortly before passing out. He wakes up the next day nearly unaffected.

Example B) Joe is considered by AA terms to be “alcoholic”. Joe hasn’t had a drink of alcohol in 5 years. One night Joe buys a 6 pack of Bud Light, drinks all of them and finds himself still drinking the next day with substantial problems attributed to his drinking.

What is the difference?

 

[maryjk]

Mary,

One persons experience or any experience is not and should not be the judge of anything. I am sad for your Father, now dead, many people have parents that were troubled.

What makes people drink is based on a list of so many reasons…

because I am tired
because I am anxious
because it’s my birthday
because it monday, tuesday, wednesday

only they know…what is true and you will find this in the Big Book of AA…people drink because they like the effects…the real question is what is the motivation and only they know…

What makes people stop is finding the reason that drinking no longer makes any sense and this comes from asking “why”…this question causes someone to find motivation and a reason to change. When there is a reason to change then change occurs. Until that reason is found then the behavior continues.

I am sad for your dad.

Which is why I was answering the OP’s direct question.

And please don’t feel sorry for my Dad. He stopped drinking, just not with the daily help of AA. And he came back to the Church, just not with the help of AA. He was part of AA for a short time and realized that listening to “oldtimers” go on and on about sleeping in the gutter wasn’t helping him. He came back to the Church after many prayers and a full Confession. He died after receiving Anointing of the Sick.

And right around the same time my father left AA, my mother and I realized that Al-Anon was even worse and not at all worth our time.

 

[Mgray82]

Which is why I was answering the OP’s direct question.

And please don’t feel sorry for my Dad. He stopped drinking, just not with the daily help of AA. And he came back to the Church, just not with the help of AA. He was part of AA for a short time and realized that listening to “oldtimers” go on and on about sleeping in the gutter wasn’t helping him. He came back to the Church after many prayers and a full Confession. He died after receiving Anointing of the Sick.

And right around the same time my father left AA, my mother and I realized that Al-Anon was even worse and not at all worth our time.

So, we hold those in AA and Al-Anon as a whole (including myself) accountable for what some members said or shared at meetings?

I’m glad I don’t judge the Church this way…

Ya know, the antidote for those “oldtimers” would be getting some new people in AA to discuss something else other than “sleeping in the gutter”. This would also be the responsibility of the chairperson of the meeting to intervene the person sharing to get the topic of the meeting back on track. If you’re a member of AA or Al-Anon, you can sign up to have that responsibility to change and help fix that problem. Or you can not go to meetings, be a skeptic and complain and be negative about it.

As they say; “it’s your program of recovery”

 

[maryjk]

So, we hold those in AA and Al-Anon as a whole (including myself) accountable for what some members said or shared at meetings?

I’m glad I don’t judge the Church this way…

Ya know, the antidote for those “oldtimers” would be getting some new people in AA to discuss something else other than “sleeping in the gutter”. This would also be the responsibility of the chairperson of the meeting to intervene the person sharing to get the topic of the meeting back on track. If you’re a member of AA or Al-Anon, you can sign up to have that responsibility to change and help fix that problem. Or you can not go to meetings, be a skeptic and complain and be negative about it.

As they say; “it’s your program of recovery”

Which would all make sense if he only ever attended one meeting, in one state. But no, we are talking about meetings, not only all over this country, but in other countries as well.

But your solution to this is, as a new person, trying to learn about AA, to try to change every single meeting he attended? Isn’t that suppose the be the point of AA? That others help you? Rather than the new person helping those that have been sober for years?

It comes down to the basic premiss of AA. Only other drunks can help you get sober. There are no professionals in AA. So for any given meeting, you have literally “whoever” leading the meeting.

What other disease can someone have that can only be treated by others with that disease? I have Lupus. Do I see others with Lupus to find treatment? Of course not, people would think I was nuts if I did that. What about cancer? COPD? Mental illness? Nope, all of those need professionals. But being an alcoholic? The best thing to do? See others that have the “disease.” Its crazy.

 

[Mgray82]

Which would all make sense if he only ever attended one meeting, in one state. But no, we are talking about meetings, not only all over this country, but in other countries as well.

But your solution to this is, as a new person, trying to learn about AA, to try to change every single meeting he attended? Isn’t that suppose the be the point of AA? That others help you? Rather than the new person helping those that have been sober for years?

It comes down to the basic premiss of AA. Only other drunks can help you get sober. There are no professionals in AA. So for any given meeting, you have literally “whoever” leading the meeting.

What other disease can someone have that can only be treated by others with that disease? I have Lupus. Do I see others with Lupus to find treatment? Of course not, people would think I was nuts if I did that. What about cancer? COPD? Mental illness? Nope, all of those need professionals. But being an alcoholic? The best thing to do? See others that have the “disease.” Its crazy.

Don’t recall reading in the Big Book “only other drunks can help you get sober”. Could you point me to the page?

Let me ask you, what’s your remedy to stop an alcoholic from drinking? Prescribing them Antabuse?

My solution is getting and staying sober one day at a time.

Only God can get me sober if I cooperate with the grace that he gives me. Nobody else can, not even my own “will power”. Let’s establish that.

I go to AA to help myself. In return I help others. It’s a selfish program, take it or leave it.

Here’s a lupus support group;

lupus.org/webmodules/webarticlesnet/templates/new_researchbasic.aspx?articleid=864&zoneid=32

I’m sorry to know you have lupus. And know, you’re in my prayers.

I won’t go further with proof of alcoholism as a disease until you’ve answered the scenario I proposed a few posts back.

I have a disease. Don’t care if you believe it or not. You don’t affect my life or sobriety. And I’ll say this; I pray you or anyone in your family never has to experience what I went through out there in the depths of hell…you see, I prayed for death…it would have been easier. Glory to God for walking me through the doors of Alcoholics Anonymous. Adhere to what I’m telling you, rather you believe this is a disease, sin, a malady, a bad habit…it’ll rip your life apart. Calling it a disease is putting a candy wrapper on it. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy…

…I’ll end with that…

 

[Pythons]

I have known multiple people who went through ( some still practice AA ) and in every case…
…The people involved entered into a “cult like state” where they slashed contact with family members.
…Even family members who didn’t drink.

Two of my co-workers spent years in AA and they did stop drinking but one of the primary reasons they kept attending was all the sex…
…AA is big on that and it’s pretty much a given that THAT’s what you will be doing there in addition to the drinking problem.

I watched this group esentially destroy my Sisters life, true, she did cease drinking but the cost for her mental well being was horrific…
…I’ve known several people who went through “Shick Shadel” and in all those cases IT WORKED without the cultic stuff.
…In a fraction of the time I might add.

I know AA has worked for some people but from my experience it’s an absolute CULT…
…Better to buck up and pay the money and get into Shick Shadel and fix the problem.
…Then get involved with a “spiritual counselor” of AA that tells you when you can and can’t talk to family members who don’t even DRINK!

The fact is that the “Church of Scientology” has thousands upon thousands of people off booze and other drugs…
…But look at the cost - any cult can do this sort of thing.

Sorry for those that love AA and had a good experience with it - from my 1st hand experience it’s a cult, flat out…
…And if you go there married expect that you WILL CHEAT on your significant other.
…And have some spiritual guru telling you who you can and can’t talk to ( for your own good of course ).

 

[maryjk]

Don’t recall reading in the Big Book “only other drunks can help you get sober”. Could you point me to the page?

No longer have a Big Book in my house. Didn’t have a use for it.

Let me ask you, what’s your remedy to stop an alcoholic from drinking? Prescribing them Antabuse?

See, you are back to “it is a disease.” Which means they need to see a doctor, right? AA seems want to have it both ways. It is a disease, but it is a disease that isn’t treated like one. They need to make up their mind. If it is a disease, then people need to seek treatment from a doctor, like they would for any other disease.

My solution is getting and staying sober one day at a time.

Only God can get me sober if I cooperate with the grace that he gives me. Nobody else can, not even my own “will power”. Let’s establish that.

If that works for you, great. I am sure if you have family they are very grateful that you are not drinking.

I go to AA to help myself. In return I help others. It’s a selfish program, take it or leave it.

Here’s a lupus support group;

lupus.org/webmodules/webarticlesnet/templates/new_researchbasic.aspx?articleid=864&zoneid=32

I’m sorry to know you have lupus. And know, you’re in my prayers.

A support group is great, but I wouldn’t go to a support group for treatment. I go to a doctor for treatment. A support group is for support.

I won’t go further with proof of alcoholism as a disease until you’ve answered the scenario I proposed a few posts back.

For your scenario? There isn’t a difference. AA doesn’t believe in labeling someone. You aren’t an alcoholic until you say you are, so neither are an alcoholic until they say they are and that they want help. (Another “is it a disease or isn’t it” problem with AA.)

That said, you can create any scenario you want to get whatever answers you want.

I have a disease. Don’t care if you believe it or not. You don’t affect my life or sobriety. And I’ll say this; I pray you or anyone in your family never has to experience what I went through out there in the depths of hell…you see, I prayed for death…it would have been easier. Glory to God for walking me through the doors of Alcoholics Anonymous. Adhere to what I’m telling you, rather you believe this is a disease, sin, a malady, a bad habit…it’ll rip your life apart. Calling it a disease is putting a candy wrapper on it. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy…

…I’ll end with that…

I am sorry you went through that. I am glad when you found a way out it didn’t hurt your relationship with God or the Church. Some people do leave the Church, choosing a higher power that isn’t God.

 

[CopticChristian]

You are not refuting my argument from above. You merely conversed literally in a circle.

Any logical American, regardless of religion or not could read this and completely understand. There are simple items you are not accepting.

Seems to be almost like you’re in “denial”.

M,

“Denial” is not a river in egypt and this concept exists within the confines of the 12 step/Religion of AA and the disease model…outside that circle it has little meaning.

If you deny you have a problem then you really have one so there is the circular argument that does not allow anyone to deny that they need the 12 step religion of AA.

I deny things that are not true and with help you may find that you find truths hard to deny.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’d like to also challenge your disease concept on alcoholism as opposed to the medical dictionary’s definition of it.

Please explain to me how alcoholism is not a disease so I can squash this argument as well…

M,

I’d like to also challenge your disease concept on alcoholism as opposed to the medical dictionary’s definition of it.

You’ve drawn the guantlet ay…well maitee…let’s just discard the medical dictionary and let us just see your challenge, but be gentle, I am an old man…

Please explain to me how alcoholism is not a disease so I can squash this argument as well

Pshaw…cmon…Alcholism is not a disease, just go ahead and squash this and argue away…give me 12 guns blazin…maybe, just maybe I can mount a sufficient defense to stem the tide…put em up…put em up…I’m game…

 

[CopticChristian]

Alcoholism is a disease! 100%

I’m going to provide proof.

Example A) Sam is considered by AA terms to be “non-alcoholic”. Sam hasn’t had a drink of alcohol in 5 years. One night Sam buys a 6 pack of Bud Light, drinks 4 of them. Acquires drunkeness shortly before passing out. He wakes up the next day nearly unaffected.

Example B) Joe is considered by AA terms to be “alcoholic”. Joe hasn’t had a drink of alcohol in 5 years. One night Joe buys a 6 pack of Bud Light, drinks all of them and finds himself still drinking the next day with substantial problems attributed to his drinking.

What is the difference?

Alcoholism is a disease! 100%

Alcoholism is not a disease.

What kind of disease is it?

Is it curable or incurable?

How do you get it?

Is it genetic?

Now concerning Sam and Joe…why in the world would anyone drink Bud-lite…now Pilsner Urquell or St. Pauli Girl, dos XX, Claro Pacifco…now Trader Joes has a good Wheat beer…I think they are both nuts…for drinking this stuff.

Sam is a light weight…drunk on 4 Bud-lites…

Joe really has a problem…he bought a 6 pack, drank all of them and the next day he is still drinking…that means he is hallucinating that he is drinking because he drank all 6 and the biggest problem is that he wasted good money on Bud-lite an inferior quality beer…

How did I do?

 

[CopticChristian]

Which would all make sense if he only ever attended one meeting, in one state. But no, we are talking about meetings, not only all over this country, but in other countries as well.

But your solution to this is, as a new person, trying to learn about AA, to try to change every single meeting he attended? Isn’t that suppose the be the point of AA? That others help you? Rather than the new person helping those that have been sober for years?

It comes down to the basic premiss of AA. Only other drunks can help you get sober. There are no professionals in AA. So for any given meeting, you have literally “whoever” leading the meeting.

What other disease can someone have that can only be treated by others with that disease? I have Lupus. Do I see others with Lupus to find treatment? Of course not, people would think I was nuts if I did that. What about cancer? COPD? Mental illness? Nope, all of those need professionals. But being an alcoholic? The best thing to do? See others that have the “disease.” Its crazy.

Maryj,

This really is nonsense isn’t it. How many people in this world would listen to their doctor tell them…now you have a disease…and I am sending you to a group of people that have this same disease and none of them are professional and none of them know anything about this disease except that they have it and you are going to sit in a circle and tell everyone you have it…ARE you kidding me Dr…this is treatment?

If you want to learn to fly, find someone that knows how to fly…If you want to lean how to stay sober find someone who is sober and never abused liquor and find out what they do and how they do it makes more sense.