AAGH! Mass gone crazy in orthodox diocese

[Elzee]

Well, my eyes have been opened up to many new experiences lately, but this one tops it for me.

In my travels I had the opportunity to attend Mass in what is considered an extremely orthodox diocese. I was excited. However, as I walked into the church I had a hint of concern when I learned it was an ‘ecumenical Mass’. But, I still wasn’t all that concerned because of the very strong reputation of this diocese.

Here is what I witnessed and learned. Please tell me if I’m wrong or overreacting.

• “choir” - guitars, drums, and tambourines made up of the church’s choir and a Lutheran church choir, located in front of the congregation next to the tabernacle. Gum-chewing was the norm for the musicians all throughout Mass.
• Responsorial pslam - led by the wife of a non-denominational pastor - she isn’t Catholic.
• Homily - given by the priest, but a laywoman was presented with a gift and allowed to speak after the priest. This was very distracting. To me, it took me ‘out of the Mass’ and reminded me of a ‘this Mass is all about us’ mentality.
• Offertory - gifts brought up by both Catholics and non-Catholics
• Eucharistic prayer- the first 4 rows of people invited to stand around the altar - this included Catholics and non-Catholics.
• Consecration - Music is played throughout and the priest sings the words of consecration
• The “Our Father” - they did their ‘special’ Our Father as we were told. Some of you may remember it from the 70’s - the words 'hallowed be they name’ are repeated several times throughout the bubble-gum music style song. As the priest says ‘deliver us Lord from every evil….’ we were told to hum the tune of the song. It was horrid. But, it gets better - everyone standing around the altar is holding hands and swaying back and forth as they sing and hum.
• Sign of peace - yep, you guessed it. The ‘ecumenical assembly’ around the altar are all over the place - bumping into the altar, walking around the tabernacle to shake the gum-chewing guitar players’ hands, laughing, talking…can you say “it’s all about ME!” I don’t know how long it lasted, but it seemed like an eternity.
• Lamb of God - “Bread of Life’ was sung in place of the last 'Lamb of God”
• Communion - a madhouse. Because there are SO many people in the sanctuary it’s chaos. Lines are set up to receive behind the altar and to the side of it, and then in front of the altar for the congregation.
• After Communion, before the final blessing, a non-denominational minister walks to the ambo (directly passing in front of the tabernacle) and delivers a short meditation. This same man processed in and out of the church with the priests and altar servers. They gave him an alb to wear, similar to what the altar servers were wearing.
  That about covers most of it. Are all of these things I witnessed wrong? I know some are - but for example, the Our Father and Lamb of God - are we allowed to alter the words? The priest told me that we were allowed to in the U.S. if it was part of the how the music was written.

Are Protestant ministers/lay people allowed to read/preach during Mass, process in, etc. ???

 

[Nekic]

Well, my eyes have been opened up to many new experiences lately, but this one tops it for me.

In my travels I had the opportunity to attend Mass in what is considered an extremely orthodox diocese. I was excited. However, as I walked into the church I had a hint of concern when I learned it was an ‘ecumenical Mass’. But, I still wasn’t all that concerned because of the very strong reputation of this diocese.

Here is what I witnessed and learned. Please tell me if I’m wrong or overreacting.

• “choir” - guitars, drums, and tambourines made up of the church’s choir and a Lutheran church choir, located in front of the congregation next to the tabernacle. Gum-chewing was the norm for the musicians all throughout Mass.
• Responsorial pslam - led by the wife of a non-denominational pastor - she isn’t Catholic.
• Homily - given by the priest, but a laywoman was presented with a gift and allowed to speak after the priest. This was very distracting. To me, it took me ‘out of the Mass’ and reminded me of a ‘this Mass is all about us’ mentality.
• Offertory - gifts brought up by both Catholics and non-Catholics
• Eucharistic prayer- the first 4 rows of people invited to stand around the altar - this included Catholics and non-Catholics.
• Consecration - Music is played throughout and the priest sings the words of consecration
• The “Our Father” - they did their ‘special’ Our Father as we were told. Some of you may remember it from the 70’s - the words 'hallowed be they name’ are repeated several times throughout the bubble-gum music style song. As the priest says ‘deliver us Lord from every evil….’ we were told to hum the tune of the song. It was horrid. But, it gets better - everyone standing around the altar is holding hands and swaying back and forth as they sing and hum.
• Sign of peace - yep, you guessed it. The ‘ecumenical assembly’ around the altar are all over the place - bumping into the altar, walking around the tabernacle to shake the gum-chewing guitar players’ hands, laughing, talking…can you say “it’s all about ME!” I don’t know how long it lasted, but it seemed like an eternity.
• Lamb of God - “Bread of Life’ was sung in place of the last 'Lamb of God”
• Communion - a madhouse. Because there are SO many people in the sanctuary it’s chaos. Lines are set up to receive behind the altar and to the side of it, and then in front of the altar for the congregation.
• After Communion, before the final blessing, a non-denominational minister walks to the ambo (directly passing in front of the tabernacle) and delivers a short meditation. This same man processed in and out of the church with the priests and altar servers. They gave him an alb to wear, similar to what the altar servers were wearing.
  That about covers most of it. Are all of these things I witnessed wrong? I know some are - but for example, the Our Father and Lamb of God - are we allowed to alter the words? The priest told me that we were allowed to in the U.S. if it was part of the how the music was written.

Are Protestant ministers/lay people allowed to read/preach during Mass, process in, etc. ???

I have no documents to support it, and I don’t intend to go looking for them at 12.40am, but it would seem that most of the things were wrong.

1. Mis-placement of the choir and band. The tambourines and drums shouldn’t be there in the first place.
2. In my opinion, no-one who is not Catholic should lead anyone in any part of the Holy Sacrifice.
3. Good, the homily was at least given by the priest. The woman should not be presented with the gift. Like you said, it is meant to be about God and his achivements for mankind, not makind’s achievements.
4. I have no problem with Protestants offering the gifts for mass. They should be the ones with the problem - they’re offering a sacrifice, for crying out loud…
5. Standing around the altar=not good. Very abusive of the liturgy.
6. Priest singing the words of teh consecration, i can live with (I would laud it if it were chant). Music during the concecration is not appropriate.
7. Sign of peace should be short and sweet. No moving to shake the hands of people more than 2 metres away.
8. Agnus Dei sounds like the Mass of Creation… God, I hate that setting…
9. I wouldn’t be surprised if half the non-catho’s there recieved communion.
10. Adding to the mass is something not even a priest is allowed to do. No non-catholic has the right to add a reflection.

cont.

 

[Nekic]

Are we allowed to alter the words?
Good question. If a person writes a setting that alters the words, I don’t think the bishop should allow it.
That’s just my opinion.

I don’t think protestant ministers/lay people are allowed to do anything in mass other than offer it up, but even their religion prevents them from doing this.

I open the doors for people to offer written proofs.
If I am found to be in error in any of my statements, I recant.

 

[TradyDaddy]

Why are you surprised? Why is anyone suprised at these things anymore. Wake up folks. Those of you who are very happy in your particular “conservative/orthodox” parish or diocese, you are only one Priest or Bishop transfer away from the anything goes mass.

I’ve been reading EWTN Q&A section and Forums like this one for the past 15 years or so and the story just stays the same year after year after year… the beat goes on. People ask what to do, EWTN and CA tell them the steps to take to report the “abuses” and nothing is done… the beat goes on. Redemptionis Sacramentum was supposed to solve these problems… but the beat goes on… The USCCB and the worlds Bishops have made a science out of obfuscating the so called “rules”.

At least a few prominent “apologists” have suggested that the answer is to “parish” shop when your current one has gone too far and the Priest won’t work to correct the problems. Hog wash! We are supposed to be One Church. I should NEVER … EVER… have to “parish” shop. That is what Protestants do (at least the non-denominational ones).

A failed experiment is a failed experiment. It’s time to return to what worked from 33 to 1962. Of course I know the usual suspects will call me all kinds of names. That’s fine. But ten years from now, if you visit these same types of forums, you will hear the same type of complaints.

 

[Cristiano]

Well, my eyes have been opened up to many new experiences lately, but this one tops it for me.

In my travels I had the opportunity to attend Mass in what is considered an extremely orthodox diocese. I was excited. However, as I walked into the church I had a hint of concern when I learned it was an ‘ecumenical Mass’. But, I still wasn’t all that concerned because of the very strong reputation of this diocese.

Here is what I witnessed and learned. Please tell me if I’m wrong or overreacting.

• “choir” - guitars, drums, and tambourines made up of the church’s choir and a Lutheran church choir, located in front of the congregation next to the tabernacle. Gum-chewing was the norm for the musicians all throughout Mass.
• Responsorial pslam - led by the wife of a non-denominational pastor - she isn’t Catholic.
• Homily - given by the priest, but a laywoman was presented with a gift and allowed to speak after the priest. This was very distracting. To me, it took me ‘out of the Mass’ and reminded me of a ‘this Mass is all about us’ mentality.
• Offertory - gifts brought up by both Catholics and non-Catholics
• Eucharistic prayer- the first 4 rows of people invited to stand around the altar - this included Catholics and non-Catholics.
• Consecration - Music is played throughout and the priest sings the words of consecration
• The “Our Father” - they did their ‘special’ Our Father as we were told. Some of you may remember it from the 70’s - the words 'hallowed be they name’ are repeated several times throughout the bubble-gum music style song. As the priest says ‘deliver us Lord from every evil….’ we were told to hum the tune of the song. It was horrid. But, it gets better - everyone standing around the altar is holding hands and swaying back and forth as they sing and hum.
• Sign of peace - yep, you guessed it. The ‘ecumenical assembly’ around the altar are all over the place - bumping into the altar, walking around the tabernacle to shake the gum-chewing guitar players’ hands, laughing, talking…can you say “it’s all about ME!” I don’t know how long it lasted, but it seemed like an eternity.
• Lamb of God - “Bread of Life’ was sung in place of the last 'Lamb of God”
• Communion - a madhouse. Because there are SO many people in the sanctuary it’s chaos. Lines are set up to receive behind the altar and to the side of it, and then in front of the altar for the congregation.
• After Communion, before the final blessing, a non-denominational minister walks to the ambo (directly passing in front of the tabernacle) and delivers a short meditation. This same man processed in and out of the church with the priests and altar servers. They gave him an alb to wear, similar to what the altar servers were wearing.
  That about covers most of it. Are all of these things I witnessed wrong? I know some are - but for example, the Our Father and Lamb of God - are we allowed to alter the words? The priest told me that we were allowed to in the U.S. if it was part of the how the music was written.

Are Protestant ministers/lay people allowed to read/preach during Mass, process in, etc. ???

I was going to tell you to be charitable and that maybe things even if illicit are not that bad. But I am sorry, today I do not feel too tolerant of unnecessary and uncalled changes. I do not have issues with an ecumenical meeting in a catholic church, I think that it is a great idea. However, I would avoid the celebration of the Mass and I would just have a prayer service. The idea is to bring other people closer to our believes through understanding and not to water down the sacred liturgy.

 

[netmilsmom]

• The “Our Father” - they did their ‘special’ Our Father as we were told. Some of you may remember it from the 70’s - the words 'hallowed be they name’ are repeated several times throughout the bubble-gum music style song. As the priest says ‘deliver us Lord from every evil….’ we were told to hum the tune of the song. It was horrid. But, it gets better - everyone standing around the altar is holding hands and swaying back and forth as they sing and hum.

AAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKK!!!
I thought that was long gone as of 1975!!!

Oh Elzee, the only blessing is that half of your Purgatory time was just “poof” with this experience!!!

 

[Elzee]

AAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKK!!!
I thought that was long gone as of 1975!!!

Oh Elzee, the only blessing is that half of your Purgatory time was just “poof” with this experience!!!

I think I would rather endure the purifying fire of Purgatory!

I actually had never heard it before so I guess that’s why I was soooo caught off guard…but someone explained it’s origin to me from the 70’s.

I hate Gather Us In and Sing a New Church, but I’ll tell you, I would rather hear those songs every day from now until the coming of Jesus Christ than have to endure that Our Father rendition once more. I can’t think of anything worse, I really can’t. It’s just bad in so many ways. I honestly thought the whole group around the altar was going to break out in dance as the swaying became more and more fervent. A few clapped, but thank God it didn’t catch on.

I prayed fervently in my heart along with the priest when he said “deliver us Lord, from every evil…”

 

[netmilsmom]

I think I would rather endure the purifying fire of Purgatory!

I prayed fervently in my heart along with the priest when he said “deliver us Lord, from every evil…”

I do the same thing when visiting an innovative parish. I constant litany of the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel does the trick!

 

[Elzee]

Where can I find out if non-Catholics are allowed to read the readings or bring up the offertory gifts or offter a meditation after Communion? I can’t find anything specific on the USCCB site (yet).

 

[TradyDaddy]

Where can I find out if non-Catholics are allowed to read the readings or bring up the offertory gifts or offter a meditation after Communion? I can’t find anything specific on the USCCB site (yet).

You’re missing the point Elzee. It doesn’t matter one iota to the “bishops” what documents Rome issues. Redemptionis Sacramentum was a document that was supposed to thwart the so called “abuses”. It was ignored. This is the result of collegiality. Why do you think the Pope no longer wears the tiara or has a “coronation”?

 

[Walking_Home]

Where can I find out if non-Catholics are allowed to read the readings or bring up the offertory gifts or offter a meditation after Communion? I can’t find anything specific on the USCCB site (yet).

---

This may help. Being non-Catholic itself puts a person outside fidelity to Magisterium.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[46.] The lay Christian faithful called to give assistance at liturgical celebrations should be well instructed and must be those whose Christian life, morals and fidelity to the Church’s Magisterium recommend them. It is fitting that such a one should have received a liturgical formation in accordance with his or her age, condition, state of life, and religious culture.[117] No one should be selected whose designation could cause consternation for the faithful.[118]

 

[Victorious]

Too often, “ecumenical” means that we check our Catholicity at the door. This is BEE ESS, especially in a Catholic church. If Catholics go to an ecumenical service at a Pentecostal church, they are not going to tone down their Pentecostalism on our account; if we go to a Presybterian church, they are not going to be one whit less Presbyterian just because we’re there. But when Protestants come over to our churches, we are supposed to act like Protestants!

The fact is, we are in the business of going out and making disciples of all the nations; but we consistently forget this. Ours is the Church Christ founded, and we claim that it is in the Catholic Church that the fullness of Christianity subsists; but we don’t act like it, and we don’t convince anybody of it, when we give up who we are. How are we to make disciples of all the nations, if we fail to present people with a clear choice between the happy-clappy fluff stuff they have now, and what they could have if they came over here?

 

[prv]

I was going to tell you to be charitable and that maybe things even if illicit are not that bad. But I am sorry, today I do not feel too tolerant of unnecessary and uncalled changes. I do not have issues with an ecumenical meeting in a catholic church, I think that it is a great idea. However, I would avoid the celebration of the Mass and I would just have a prayer service. The idea is to bring other people closer to our believes through understanding and not to water down the sacred liturgy.

There are no problems with legitemate ecumenical meetings, according to the ecumenical directory. The celebration of the Eucharist is not one of them.

Check this out:

Why non-Catholics may not receive Holy Communion

Melkite Catholic Eparchy of Newton

www.melkite.org/PRIMER.htm#CommunionNonCatholic

(This speaks about the reception of Holy Communion, and indirectly relates to other concerns about the Hoy Liturgy, namely why non-Catholics cannot be considered full members of the Catholic comuunity.)

 

[Elzee]

Too often, “ecumenical” means that we check our Catholicity at the door. This is BEE ESS, especially in a Catholic church. If Catholics go to an ecumenical service at a Pentecostal church, they are not going to tone down their Pentecostalism on our account; if we go to a Presybterian church, they are not going to be one whit less Presbyterian just because we’re there. But when Protestants come over to our churches, we are supposed to act like Protestants!

The fact is, we are in the business of going out and making disciples of all the nations; but we consistently forget this. Ours is the Church Christ founded, and we claim that it is in the Catholic Church that the fullness of Christianity subsists; but we don’t act like it, and we don’t convince anybody of it, when we give up who we are. How are we to make disciples of all the nations, if we fail to present people with a clear choice between the happy-clappy fluff stuff they have now, and what they could have if they came over here?

You have captured my thoughts in your words better than I ever have in mine. Thank you.