Aaron and the golden calf

[GandalfTheWhite]

Then you won’t be putting your wife’s picture or statue into a house of worship and bowing and kneeling and prayering before it.

Ye, we don’t do that. But there is a simple reason. Why would I worship and kneel in front of a photo of my wife (hypothetical) when worshiping my wife would be idolatry and thus I’m don’t desire her photo to aid me in her worship? However, what I might do is to take a picture of my wife and look at it when I want to think about her. You see, we for example pray in front of crucifixes because they remind us of the suffering Jesus had to go through as well as it helps us to generally direct our prayers towards him.

I just feel that some of the people here are deaf or that they think that Catholics are crazy. Why would we lie to protestants about our love of statue & icon worship? You think we are desperately trying to leave the clutches of “Rome” to join Protestantism and so we are ashamed to admit that we worship statues? Probably as much as we are ashamed to admit that we eat Christ, divinity and flash, at least once a week? Not, if we would do that I can assure you we would tell you like I’m proudly telling you that taking the Eucharist is probably one of the greatest things that can happen to you!

Mans primitive desire for the security of the physical. The essence of the story of the golden calf.

You are right, it’s very likely that they needed desired a physical security and that’s why they build “exchanged” God for an fantastical idol.

However, this has nothing to do with what Catholics do.

We are material creatures tied to the material world. We should not be ashamed to admit that we often need material symbolism etc. to help us concentrate on the divine and non-material. He created us this way and he allows us to experience the material world through our senses - and this is “very good”.God knows this as he often manifested and still manifests himself through material means. When we baptize we could simply say: “I baptize you…” - instead we are told to use water. When Jesus healed a deaf man he could have simply say: “I heal you”. Instead he placed his fingers in the man’s ears first. Jesus even told us to “eat this bread” when he introduced the Eucharist during the first mass. The list could go on and on but basically what I’m trying to say is that using the physical for non-material purposes is not unique and ungodly. We often worship God the Son **through **statues and icons to help us direct are prayers and thoughts. But as was said million times, we do not pray **to **the statues and icons.

Right on!

I expected something better then this. Perhaps that you would answer my questions.

It looks like he may have been crowning her. It could have been the feast of Mary, Queen of Heaven. I love that as well as the Feast of the Assumption. It’s wonderful, isn’t it? What’s your favorite?

I was thinking that he might be blessing the statue for example. But I guess crowning her sounds like a better option. But I’ve never seen it in real life. I hope this will change in the near future!

God bless you all three!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

1 [5] The calf . . . a feast of the LORD: from this it is clear that the golden calf was intended as an image, not of a false god, but of the LORD himself, his strength being symbolized by the strength of a young bull. The Israelites, however, had been forbidden to represent the Lord under any visible form.

Cf Exodus 20:4.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

1 [5] The calf . . . a feast of the LORD: from this it is clear that the golden calf was intended as an image, not of a false god, but of the LORD himself, his strength being symbolized by the strength of a young bull. The Israelites, however, had been forbidden to represent the Lord under any visible form.

Cf Exodus 20:4.

United conference of catholic bishops interpretation…

 

[Church_Militant]

Citation of source with link?

 

[NotWorthy]

1 [5] The calf . . . a feast of the LORD: from this it is clear that the golden calf was intended as an image, not of a false god, but of the LORD himself, his strength being symbolized by the strength of a young bull. The Israelites, however, had been forbidden to represent the Lord under any visible form.

Cf Exodus 20:4.

OK, so it’s OK to equate the LORD with the pagan gods of Egypt? The fertility god, Aepis?

That’s basically what the Israelites did, isn’t it?

 

[NotWorthy]

Citation of source with link?

He’s quoting the NAB footnotes from the USCCB.ORG website

 

[LilyM]

Exodus
Chapter 32
1
When the people became aware of Moses’ delay in coming down from the mountain, **they gathered around Aaron and said to him, “Come, make us a god **who will be our leader; as for the man Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him.”

The golden calf wasn’t the same as Yahweh. The Israelites couldn’t have been asking Aaron to make Yahweh.

 

[Church_Militant]

He’s quoting the NAB footnotes from the USCCB.ORG website

Since when are they De Fide or even reliable?

Let’s try something that has a bit more orthodoxy …

From the DRB.

4 “A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing”… All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshiped with divine honor. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary so far from being forbidden, are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Ex. 25. 15, and etc.; chap. 38. 7; Num. 21. 8, 9; 1 Chron. or Paralip. 28. 18, 19; 2 Chron. or Paralip. 3. 10.

I think Martin is just throwing stuff hoping that something will stick, and it won’t.

 

[NotWorthy]

Myfavoritemartin, if you want to see the general consensus of the NAB commentaries, you can find numerous threads on it. And it’s not unique to the CAF faithful.

I sometimes wonder if the footnotes were written by a non-catholic.

 

[Church_Militant]

Myfavoritemartin, if you want to see the general consensus of the NAB commentaries, you can find numerous threads on it. And it’s not unique to the CAF faithful.

I sometimes wonder if the footnotes were written by a non-catholic.

 

[Zooey]

Well, how have I managed to miss** this**, all this time?? (Won’t happen again; I just subscribed…)

Martin, Martin, Martin…you gotta get real here. Let me get what you are saying here: The golden calf is supposedly a symbol of God?? Hmmmmm… I missed have missed that bulletin. When did the Official Description of Almighty God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit get changed into “** juvenile bovine made of** :bigyikes: old scraps of busted jewelry”:hypno:???uch: :dts:
Ooooo…kaaaayyyyy…
Um, I don’t think so… That was the Sacred Cow, who was regarded as the fertility of Egypt.
And as far as Graven Images are concerned, you seriously need to think about learning a new song. This one is getting really, really, really old. If I followed your rules, I’d have to get rid of the family album, the family Bible…Heck, I’d have to get rid of the roof over my head! I mean, it is the Family Homestead!
And whatever am I going to do with all my stuffed cats, china cats, glass cats, wooden cats, cat paintings, cat sculptures, cat photographs, cat drawings, cat-print T-shirts, cat emossed sweatshirts, cheetah print slacks, tiger striped sweaters, my leopard-print silk blouse-with-the-face-of-leopard-on-back???
Great balls of fire!! What will I do with my :bowdown: Real, Actual, Living, Breathing, Tigger-Striped & Tiggerish-Tempered Blood Descendant of the Egyptian Goddess Bastet???

Let me say this as clearly as I can:
1.Catholics do not worship statues.
2. Catholics do not worship idols.
3. Catholics do not worship a golden calf.
Now, I have known people who, from all appearances & actions, worshipped the Bible…yet I do not assume that they were idolaters. No, they were mighty unpleasant folk, but they were Christians.Extremely **annoying **Christians. KJV-Only Christians, but Christians none the less.
But I do not assume anything, because you & I both know all about what happens when we assume things. No, I sit over here, in the Methodist Amen Corner, trying not to outright snort at the nonsensicalness of all of this ado about nothing.
Martin, I fully believe that you think that it is wrong to have statues. So, you just don’t ever have any statues. See, wasn’t that easy??

Now, I am going to my Methodist pastor’s house for dinner tomorrow evening along with the rest of the church musicians, and I will be passing, as I enter the manse, his statue of St Francis of Assisi, and when I do, I will think of all the good people here at CAF, who will be pleased to know, perhaps, that he has such a thing.

 

[NotWorthy]

Zooey, once… JUST ONCE, I’d like to get into your head and see just exactly what’s going on in there!!!

I Love you!!!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Martin, Martin, Martin…you gotta get real here. Let me get what you are saying here: The golden calf is supposedly a symbol of God?? .

Yes, the israelites made it for that purpose. AND it angered God, read the next few paragraphs…
Have you read through this thread… Also are you familiar with exo20:3-4? Mock all ya want zooey. Furthermore, these warnings are for things of spiritual nature, NOT family photos etc. Have ya read the OT?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Martin, welcome back!

Now, please answer my questions that you didn’t manage to answer before you left. Once you do so, please define an idol.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Martin, welcome back!

Now, please answer my questions that you didn’t manage to answer before you left. Once you do so, please define an idol.

I like Matt’s definition:
Idol, Idolatry

An idol is a representation of something in the heavens or on the earth. It is used in worship and is often worshiped. It is an abomination to God (Exodus 20:4). Idolatry is bowing down before such an idol in adoration, prayer, or worship. In a loose sense, idolatry does not necessitate a material image or a religious system. It can be anything that takes the place of God: a car, a job, money, a person, a desire, etc. Idolatry is denounced by God at the beginning of the Ten Commandments and is considered a form of spiritual fornication.

 

[Church_Militant]

An idol is a representation of something in the heavens or on the earth. It is used in worship

and is often worshiped. It is an abomination to God (Exodus 20:4).Scripture doesn’t say that…you do.

Of course you really do wish we worshiped statues and such because it might give some substance to this propaganda.

Idolatry is bowing down before such an idol in adoration

, prayer, or worship.The commandment says “you shall not bow down to them or serve them;” The problem here is that this means that one would have to be stupid enough to confuse a statue made of stone or whatever with the almighty God of the universe.

1. Catholics do not adore images or statues, and you cannot supply a single authentic Catholic teaching that tells us to, therefore this is some fantasy of yours…
2. Catholics do not pray to images or statues, and you cannot supply a single authentic Catholic teaching that tells us to, therefore this is some fantasy of yours…
3. Catholics do not worship images or statues, and you cannot supply a single authentic Catholic teaching that tells us to, therefore this is some fantasy of yours…

In a loose sense, idolatry does not necessitate a material image or a religious system. It can be anything that takes the place of God: a car, a job, money, a person, a desire, etc.

Gosh… I know a whole lot of Catholics who worship all these things. NOT!

Idolatry is denounced by God at the beginning of the Ten Commandments and is considered a form of spiritual fornication.

So… take it up with someone who actually has this problem then.

Any of the rest of you faithful Catholics out there see anything in this stuff that applies to you? I sure don’t…

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Scripture doesn’t say that…you do.

Of course you really do wish we worshiped statues and such because it might give some substance to this propaganda.

I never said you “worshipped” statues…For that matter I didn’t even say it about aaron and company. I pointed out that this calf was meant to symbolize YAHWEH and even so IT angered HIM (God) MUCH! Take it however it suits you, with your statue kissing and bowing with a rose at the foot of Mary and all those traditions of yours. I’m sharing scripture with you, take from it what you want…It’s yours to keep!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Scripture doesn’t say that…you do.

Any of the rest of you faithful Catholics out there see anything in this stuff that applies to you? I sure don’t…

Seered conscience and eye scales do wonders!
We are all guilty of idolatry in one manner or another.

 

[Church_Militant]

I never said you “worshipped” statues…For that matter I didn’t even say it about aaron and company. I pointed out that this calf was meant to symbolize YAHWEH and even so IT angered HIM (God) MUCH! Take it however it suits you, with your statue kissing and bowing with a rose at the foot of Mary and all those traditions of yours. I’m sharing scripture with you, take from it what you want…It’s yours to keep!

Get over it then…

I have yet to see anything that Catholics do that might even remotely qualify under what you have “shared”.

I frankly don’t see anything in the scriptures that even says that the calf was a symbol of God.

You’re way out in left filed somewhere with this…

 

[djrakowski]

I never said you “worshipped” statues…For that matter I didn’t even say it about aaron and company. I pointed out that this calf was meant to symbolize YAHWEH and even so IT angered HIM (God) MUCH! Take it however it suits you, with your statue kissing and bowing with a rose at the foot of Mary and all those traditions of yours. I’m sharing scripture with you, take from it what you want…It’s yours to keep!

If you don’t say we worship statues, then why have you spent so much effort trying to prove our practice of venerating sacred images is unbiblical? If we’re not worshipping these images, then there’s no problem, right?