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Truth_Faith13
Guest
Thanks for sharing your life examples!
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Rau
Guest
I think I did cover that, but to express it in a slightly different way…Your decision is not guaranteed to be well made simply because you made it! The catechism does not say that. One should consult their conscience and do their best. Objective error is not readily discerned here, and hence others are well advised to keep their opinions to themselves, unless asked.But, if the church says its up to the couple to decide what is “just” for THEM, I still don’t see how anyone can point a finger and call another person’s reason a loop-hole. Since the church doesn’t specify what is considered just (and again leaves that to the couple) anyone saying “that’s not a good reason” is simply just stating their own meaningless opinion. They certainly have a right to say it, especially if people ask for it. I guess what I’m trying to ask is if I were to be Catholic, and some self righteous person comes up and says my reasons are selfish, I can just slap church catechism in their face. Of course in a friendly way.
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David011
Guest
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I’m sorry.
What you know is that your sister is wealthy, an NFP instructor and only has two kids.
There could be many legitimate reasons that had nothing to do with money that caused them to decide to limit their family to just two sons.
I don’t think you know that she has been less open to God’s will than the others just by family size.
There’s an Italian saying that if you and your neighbor could put all your problems in a pile and divide them, each person would gladly take their own problems back.
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Rau
Guest
You ought not to be confronted by others challenging your choice on this matter, without an invitation to do so.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
My point is that often we see our own short comings in other people’s sins and that is why often times we fight so hard against them, speak so harshly towards them, and become easily offended by their words and actions. None of us are perfect. All of us fall short of the mark sometimes. In order for us to come to an understanding and find a way to move forward, everyone needs to acknowledge that much. The Church tells us that ABC is wrong, and that NFP should be used in just/severe/grave situations. We are told to look at our own conscience, that is supposed to be shaped by and aligned with the CCC, as our guide. If couples do that and feel no guilt, probably they are on the right path. If they do that and feel little twinges in their soul, perhaps they should revisit the issue.
How many couples actually pray and discuss monthly the reasons they are avoiding? No one needs to answer that, just think it over. I was taught by my instructors and reminded by my current priest that part of NFP was monthly discerning. How many come to a decision once and never revisit the issue again, or don’t for years and years? If a couple decided to avoid for the entire marriage, as long as they only use NFP, is that wrong? What if they had a predetermind number (let’s say 6), and then avoided from then on, never discerning again? Are those things in line with the Church? According to what I have read about NFP, from listening to priests and instructors, and read from previous threads here, I don’t think so. So why can we not admit that sometimes people do use the information God gives us for the wrong reasons? When we do that, it is no less sinful than when someone else commits a sin.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
It’s not just about her family size. And the reason I mentioned her wealth is because the reason SHE gives is she cannot AFFORD more than two.
We are called to obey God’s will in more places than just the bedroom. The rest of the story is more suited to a different thread on other topics
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Rau
Guest
One’s decisions in this area are not guaranteed to be well made simply because “we” made them. Does more than that need to be said?
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LongingSoul
Guest
It’s these incredibly bizarre stories that blow my mind. People asking other people about their contraception or nfp use outside churches. Sisters telling other sisters they shouldn’t have got their tubes tied. I’d love orthodox and conservative Catholics from other countries to chime in about their experiences because honestly, I really think this bizaare conjugal competitivness is an American cultural phenomenon. That is why I objected to being labelled as some militant NFPer simply for quoting the Catechism to someone who claimed ideological rejection of the Churchs stance. I wasn’t aware of this unusual phenomenon in the US.
Do Catholics from the UK, Europe, Africa, Asia also experience this conjugal competitiveness at Churchs and in their neighbourhoods? I simply find it weird as all heck?
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7armyrugrats
Guest
Ok, we can make bad choices.
Your original post asked why my marriage was damaged by NFP. A big part of it was the fear of screwing up and getting pregnant at a time my health was extremely poor. Instead of abandoning it for abc, we chose celibacy. I can honestly say it was a good thing for my marriage, especially during a time that stress would have further damaged my health because there is 0 chance of pregnancy. No fear what so ever that I would damage a baby with the medicines I was taking, no chance a pregnancy would further compromise my health. My husband was 100% on board with it so I didn’t feel guilt about denying him intimacy. Now, my health is better and we are able to enjoy each other whenever we both desire and when it natural leads in that direction. It is a complete freedom with no worries, stress, or expectations. No one is upset when we get pregnant or disappointed if we don’t. It is left completely to God.
I suspect that if my husband had not suggested celibacy or if he had harbored resentment, or if we were not used to expressing our love in other ways, ABC might have been the path we took. Either way, NFP was not good for us.
NFP is not wrong but can be abused. It can lead to stronger marriages but it can also damage a marriage. If a marriage is being hurt by NFP a couple has few choices. I made one choice, but I’m not going condemn a couple for choosing the other. In a perfect world we wouldn’t have these decisions to make.
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Xantippe
Guest
7armyrugrats said:
“And the reason I mentioned her wealth is because the reason SHE gives is she cannot AFFORD more than two.”
Her actual reasons may be quite a bit more personal. Here are some possibilities: 1) She and her husband stopped having sex 10 years ago. 2) Her husband is never around (very likely for a CEO). 3) She’s worried about the increasing risk of disabilities with maternal and paternal age 4) Her marriage is unhappy 5) She isn’t happy with the sort of father her husband is. 6) Her kids are tough to deal with and she has reason to think that the problems are genetic. 7) Her husband has HIV. 8) Either she or her husband has a serious mental illness. Etc.
I’ve had an uncomfortable conversation (only the one) where some fellow Catholics (and very good people) asked how many kids we had and the answer (two at the time) was apparently not to their liking. I said, “C is kind of a tough kid.” The actual answer at the time would have been, “My oldest child is mildly autistic and has hours long tantrums where we lock ourselves and her younger brother in our bedroom while she pounds on the door. She’s thrown forks and pencils at me point-first. We spend huge amounts of money on therapy and I dread phone calls from school I’m afraid she’s going to get expelled. Every morning until she was a 3rd grader, I have had to forcibly dress her in her school uniform and drag her to the car. And then after school, I have to sit over her while she does every problem of her homework, with lots of whining. I have no idea how I would add an infant to that.”
Any public explanation is often just the tip of the iceberg.
“And the reason I mentioned her wealth is because the reason SHE gives is she cannot AFFORD more than two.”
Her actual reasons may be quite a bit more personal. Here are some possibilities: 1) She and her husband stopped having sex 10 years ago. 2) Her husband is never around (very likely for a CEO). 3) She’s worried about the increasing risk of disabilities with maternal and paternal age 4) Her marriage is unhappy 5) She isn’t happy with the sort of father her husband is. 6) Her kids are tough to deal with and she has reason to think that the problems are genetic. 7) Her husband has HIV. 8) Either she or her husband has a serious mental illness. Etc.
I’ve had an uncomfortable conversation (only the one) where some fellow Catholics (and very good people) asked how many kids we had and the answer (two at the time) was apparently not to their liking. I said, “C is kind of a tough kid.” The actual answer at the time would have been, “My oldest child is mildly autistic and has hours long tantrums where we lock ourselves and her younger brother in our bedroom while she pounds on the door. She’s thrown forks and pencils at me point-first. We spend huge amounts of money on therapy and I dread phone calls from school I’m afraid she’s going to get expelled. Every morning until she was a 3rd grader, I have had to forcibly dress her in her school uniform and drag her to the car. And then after school, I have to sit over her while she does every problem of her homework, with lots of whining. I have no idea how I would add an infant to that.”
Any public explanation is often just the tip of the iceberg.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
I agree with you about it being an American thing. My husband is from Mexico and I have never noticed it in his town at least. People have a much better sense of privacy there it seems
S
Sarabande
Guest
Yes, I think that does seem to be the case. When I was over in Europe performing or studying, I never had European colleagues pry into my sexual life and activities. They didn’t talk about it. The last time I was over there, the Americans were wanting to know the details of the day I thought I got pregnant with my child. I did have a pretty good idea of the days I got pregnant with my children because I used NFP, but there was no way I would share the intimate details, which is what they wanted to know.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
I agree it could be something else, but I know my sister quite well and I seriously doubt it. I’m leaving it at that because as much as I love my sister there are some very ill feelings between us for very personal reasons (not this issue!) and I am likely to state things I will highly regret. I do love her dearly. I wish our relationship was like it was like a few years ago. And I am very happy for her that she has a good life with great sons (both adults now) and a husband that cherishes her.
It is disheartening to me that even though many people try to find other excuses for one sister, only one person has found it disturbing that she belittles the other sisters.
M
manualman
Guest
I’ll contribute briefly. I can’t relate to those who describe orthodox catholics on the matter as bitter, self-righteous and prone to friendly fire sniping. Sure arguments occur among friends, but arguing is how people learn, really. As long as it’s respectful, it’s a good thing.
But those catholic families I know who are faithful to church teaching (I and most of my friends are mid 40’s, so don’t accuse me of spring chickenism either) illustrate something really profound about the effects of NFP. They have “planned children” they sometimes have “oopsie children” but they also have “what the heck children.” When you ask around, the oopsies are significantly outnumbered by the what the hecks.
To me, that speaks volumes about the character of NFP that is so innately different than contraception. The contraception tends to perpetuate itself. It totally eliminates the natural checks and balances God built into us that nudge us back towards considering more children. I think this is a LARGE part of why every single industrialized nation on earth where contraception is socially acceptable has a BELOW replacement total fertility rate. That’s worth thinking on.
But those catholic families I know who are faithful to church teaching (I and most of my friends are mid 40’s, so don’t accuse me of spring chickenism either) illustrate something really profound about the effects of NFP. They have “planned children” they sometimes have “oopsie children” but they also have “what the heck children.” When you ask around, the oopsies are significantly outnumbered by the what the hecks.
To me, that speaks volumes about the character of NFP that is so innately different than contraception. The contraception tends to perpetuate itself. It totally eliminates the natural checks and balances God built into us that nudge us back towards considering more children. I think this is a LARGE part of why every single industrialized nation on earth where contraception is socially acceptable has a BELOW replacement total fertility rate. That’s worth thinking on.
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Xantippe
Guest
7armyrugrats said:
“It is disheartening to me that even though many people try to find other excuses for one sister, only one person has found it disturbing that she belittles the other sisters.”
Sure it’s disturbing, but just as she is judgy about her sisters, it seems like you are being judgy about her. (It’s probably contagious) If she were here, everybody would be telling her to back off.
I have a close relative who had one child around 20 and that one child is now 14 and there is no sign of a follow-up kid and no mention of infertility. Financially speaking, they could probably easily raise another four or five kids on their income (if it’s not at least $200k a year with all their different income streams, I’ll eat a pizza box). However, I have seen a lot of her husband, and he can be a bit of an ogre. For all I know, their marriage is just hanging by a thread even with one kid (we have at least one regular poster here in that situation–and in that case the family is apparently high-earning).
In your sister’s case, there are many possible sad and embarrassing explanations for why she only has two kids that she might not wish to share with the world at large or even (or especially) her own sisters. For instance, her husband might not be sexually attracted to women. Or perhaps he didn’t want more and she did, or vice versa. Or perhaps their sons were the product of some complicated (and immoral) medical procedure.
Try to give her the benefit of the doubt, and don’t let her beat up on your other sisters.
“It is disheartening to me that even though many people try to find other excuses for one sister, only one person has found it disturbing that she belittles the other sisters.”
Sure it’s disturbing, but just as she is judgy about her sisters, it seems like you are being judgy about her. (It’s probably contagious
) If she were here, everybody would be telling her to back off.I have a close relative who had one child around 20 and that one child is now 14 and there is no sign of a follow-up kid and no mention of infertility. Financially speaking, they could probably easily raise another four or five kids on their income (if it’s not at least $200k a year with all their different income streams, I’ll eat a pizza box). However, I have seen a lot of her husband, and he can be a bit of an ogre. For all I know, their marriage is just hanging by a thread even with one kid (we have at least one regular poster here in that situation–and in that case the family is apparently high-earning).
In your sister’s case, there are many possible sad and embarrassing explanations for why she only has two kids that she might not wish to share with the world at large or even (or especially) her own sisters. For instance, her husband might not be sexually attracted to women. Or perhaps he didn’t want more and she did, or vice versa. Or perhaps their sons were the product of some complicated (and immoral) medical procedure.
Try to give her the benefit of the doubt, and don’t let her beat up on your other sisters.
J
JamesBond007
Guest
I don’t post here often but here’s my 2 cents:
To the NFP Crowd:
Why do we get charged when an ABC user pontificates? Are we not confident in our choice? Do we secretly feel like we are missing out on some great sexual freedom and are just looking for company? My wife and I use NFP (Ovacue) btw. Too often though I sense that the real buzz about sex is that “we’re missing out” and the ABC people aren’t. Personally, I don’t really care what other people do NFP, ABC, or otherwise. Trying to reason with people when it comes to sex is futile. The chemical surge of dopamine released in ones brain during orgasm and the following stimulation of the brains reward center is not going to be tamed by reason alone. I think the Church has a responsibility to hold us all to the highest standard and if people want to set a lower one, so be it. I think its important for us NFP’ers to be secure in our choice and leave the rest to their own devices. They know the teaching so we’ve done our part. The real reward of NFP came to me (I’m a guy) when I shared the knowledge of it with my wife. She didn’t want hormonal contraception and didn’t care either way about condoms. She was practically in tear when I told her there was an alternative AND she can use it to predict when her period is coming. We’re not the kind of couple that needs sex to hold us together because we have MANY ways of expressing affection that deepen our understanding of each other. Sex to us is just a physical way of expressing we already know about each other in our hearts. It is by no means the “cornerstone” of our marriage. I love feeling her spiritually more so than physically. We’ve connected in a way I cannot put into words. We didn’t connect so deeply because of NFP but rather out of our desire for more than sex.
I think the biggest problem facing Catholic marriage is this great waxing of poetry when it comes to sex. Animals do it for crying out loud. It is messy, smelly, and not the most sanitary act to be quite honest. What makes it beautiful though is that the Holy Spirit takes an otherwise crude physical act and mysteriously turns it into a spiritual expression of love. That nature of that mystery however is spiritual and will never be fully understand by the act of sex alone. A person who thirsts more for the spirit will realize the physical is not necessary although it can be useful as a symbol.
To the ABC crowd:
Not everything is the rhythm method. There are a lot of devices available now that have sensors (Ovacue) and determine ovulation. They are VERY effective. My wife and I have no kids yet and we’ve been doing just fine for several months. I know that’s not long but whatever. Just because 99% of you are using ABC that also does not make it “right.” Just because you “feel” its “right” does not mean it is. “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9 Lots of dictators thought what they were doing was right but most of us would agree the tyranny they brought upon their people was not. What standard are we to use? I’m not saying you are wrong and I am right but the “majority rules” attitude I get from ABC users is as misguided as the NFP obsessed users you complain about. In all honesty however it is your soul but to sit there with the attitude that the “Church needs to change” is a wee bit arrogant. The Church and its clergy have over 2000 years of tradition and thought behind them. You have 50-60 years and a consumerist culture that thinks aborting unborn children is a “right” behind you. Women have died from some forms of birth control like Yasmin and the FDA has cited the makers of Mirena for false advertising. Yes, NFP has its risks too but so does ABC. I don’t think people are hysterical or backwards for being concerned about putting synthetic chemicals in their body for a process (sex) that is not essential to life. New studies have showed that synthetic estrogens are turning up in drinking water. They do not get broken down by nature. We do not know what effect if any they may have on future generations. The Romans drove a plant to extinction because they thought it had contraceptive properties (io9.com/5923071/did-the-romans-drive-a-birth+control-plant-to-extinction). That’s how appetites get out of hand when limits are put in place.
To the NFP Crowd:
Why do we get charged when an ABC user pontificates? Are we not confident in our choice? Do we secretly feel like we are missing out on some great sexual freedom and are just looking for company? My wife and I use NFP (Ovacue) btw. Too often though I sense that the real buzz about sex is that “we’re missing out” and the ABC people aren’t. Personally, I don’t really care what other people do NFP, ABC, or otherwise. Trying to reason with people when it comes to sex is futile. The chemical surge of dopamine released in ones brain during orgasm and the following stimulation of the brains reward center is not going to be tamed by reason alone. I think the Church has a responsibility to hold us all to the highest standard and if people want to set a lower one, so be it. I think its important for us NFP’ers to be secure in our choice and leave the rest to their own devices. They know the teaching so we’ve done our part. The real reward of NFP came to me (I’m a guy) when I shared the knowledge of it with my wife. She didn’t want hormonal contraception and didn’t care either way about condoms. She was practically in tear when I told her there was an alternative AND she can use it to predict when her period is coming. We’re not the kind of couple that needs sex to hold us together because we have MANY ways of expressing affection that deepen our understanding of each other. Sex to us is just a physical way of expressing we already know about each other in our hearts. It is by no means the “cornerstone” of our marriage. I love feeling her spiritually more so than physically. We’ve connected in a way I cannot put into words. We didn’t connect so deeply because of NFP but rather out of our desire for more than sex.
I think the biggest problem facing Catholic marriage is this great waxing of poetry when it comes to sex. Animals do it for crying out loud. It is messy, smelly, and not the most sanitary act to be quite honest. What makes it beautiful though is that the Holy Spirit takes an otherwise crude physical act and mysteriously turns it into a spiritual expression of love. That nature of that mystery however is spiritual and will never be fully understand by the act of sex alone. A person who thirsts more for the spirit will realize the physical is not necessary although it can be useful as a symbol.
To the ABC crowd:
Not everything is the rhythm method. There are a lot of devices available now that have sensors (Ovacue) and determine ovulation. They are VERY effective. My wife and I have no kids yet and we’ve been doing just fine for several months. I know that’s not long but whatever. Just because 99% of you are using ABC that also does not make it “right.” Just because you “feel” its “right” does not mean it is. “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9 Lots of dictators thought what they were doing was right but most of us would agree the tyranny they brought upon their people was not. What standard are we to use? I’m not saying you are wrong and I am right but the “majority rules” attitude I get from ABC users is as misguided as the NFP obsessed users you complain about. In all honesty however it is your soul but to sit there with the attitude that the “Church needs to change” is a wee bit arrogant. The Church and its clergy have over 2000 years of tradition and thought behind them. You have 50-60 years and a consumerist culture that thinks aborting unborn children is a “right” behind you. Women have died from some forms of birth control like Yasmin and the FDA has cited the makers of Mirena for false advertising. Yes, NFP has its risks too but so does ABC. I don’t think people are hysterical or backwards for being concerned about putting synthetic chemicals in their body for a process (sex) that is not essential to life. New studies have showed that synthetic estrogens are turning up in drinking water. They do not get broken down by nature. We do not know what effect if any they may have on future generations. The Romans drove a plant to extinction because they thought it had contraceptive properties (io9.com/5923071/did-the-romans-drive-a-birth+control-plant-to-extinction). That’s how appetites get out of hand when limits are put in place.
M
momoffamily
Guest
“With regard to biological processes, responsible parenthood means an awareness of and respect for thier proper functions”
Humanae Vitae recognizes we will be aware of our fertility status. No sin involved in charting your cycle. Those who do not chart are probably still aware. Couples know what is going on. There is no sin in knowing about your reproductive system just as there is no sin in knowing about your skeletal system.
When the priest says, “Protect us from all anxiety” each individual prays individually for their intention.
What is causing us anxiety one year, may not the next. The Church does not explicitly spell out every situation.
She simply asks us to always be open to the possiblity of life with every act - for the life of the marriage. That’s it.
Pray for guidance and peace. Most days just doing this for ourself is enough, much less to worry about what others are doing.
Humanae Vitae recognizes we will be aware of our fertility status. No sin involved in charting your cycle. Those who do not chart are probably still aware. Couples know what is going on. There is no sin in knowing about your reproductive system just as there is no sin in knowing about your skeletal system.
When the priest says, “Protect us from all anxiety” each individual prays individually for their intention.
What is causing us anxiety one year, may not the next. The Church does not explicitly spell out every situation.
She simply asks us to always be open to the possiblity of life with every act - for the life of the marriage. That’s it.
Pray for guidance and peace. Most days just doing this for ourself is enough, much less to worry about what others are doing.
T
Truth_Faith13
Guest
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