Abandoning NFP - damaging the Marriage?

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I think the reason why married couples abandon NFP is because of the basic reasoning behind why artificial contraception is considered sinful. All married sexual activity must be both unitive and ordered towards procreation. The Church extrapolated this from its understanding of Natural Law.

I think the problem is that this is not congruent with most of our human experiences. Most married couples recognize how important sex and intimacy is for the health of their marriage and their personal well being. Many couples are able to enjoy married sex while using ABC and it does not damage their marriage. If you take that away and add NFP you introduce fear into this aspect of the relationship. (Note that I’m not implying anyone regrets having their children.)

I realize that a penis is designed to fit into a vagina so therefore all intercourse must be ordered towards procreation. This Natural Law is also supposed to be written on our hearts and it just doesn’t seem to be in this situation. In people’s experience this connection does not resonate. If you tell a married couple that they can’t have this freedom for intimacy in their relationship when they know its available and that the reason is because of this interpretation of Natural Law not very many are going to be convinced.

Hope that is not too much of a tangent.
The way we view our human experiences is completely shaped by our bias. We all have our own lens in which we see things. People may convince themselves that contracepted sex does not harm their marriage but the fact is, sin always harms us. People just warp their own view of things.

I can tell you that the law was definitely written on my heart. I didn’t want contraception even before I knew what the Church taught. I just hadn’t been influenced by the world either. The fact that the word twists this and many people fall for it is not evidence that this law doesn’t seem to be written on our hearts.

The real problem is that most people recognize how important sex and intimacy is to a marriage but they DON’T recognize how important children are to the marriage. This is the key difference. The world overvalues sex and undervalues children. This is the plot of the evil one and people fall for it. Giving of ourselves to our children is the primary tool that God provided for parents to become sanctified. Instead many choose mortal sin in resistance of this gift. This is exactly what the evil one wants.
 
sigh Thank you for mommamaree. That is what I was hoping for in this thread. It did get derailed. I find the same pontificating tiresome. I want to assure everyone I have read EVERY bit of the catechism and what it teaches about sexuality. I thought I made that clear. I have read it and disagree with it and the people that wrote it. I know listening may have been too much to ask with the temptation to chastise and admonish right at your finger tips. Unfortunately, the movement does not have too many listeners. However, listening is the key. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts and changes hearts. Give the Holy Spirit some room to move.
That’s dumb to keep saying the ‘movement’. If you really believe there is some occultish conspiracy going on in the Catholic Church regarding natural family planning, why would you be worried about ‘us’ (whoever us is). If I felt there was some evil thing working against you, I’d go to a priest or Church authority to discuss it.

Mommamaree is obviously a person very sympathetic to your beliefs and you should at least feel some freedom to talk with her personally over private messaging if you are so afraid of ‘the movement’. Heavens to betsies!
 
. The real problem is that most people recognize how important sex and intimacy is to a marriage but they DON’T recognize how important children are to the marriage. This is the key difference. The world overvalues sex and undervalues children. This is the plot of the evil one and people fall for it. Giving of ourselves to our children is the primary tool that God provided for parents to become sanctified. Instead many choose mortal sin in resistance of this gift. This is exactly what the evil one wants.
See this is what gets me, that phrase that is so often used. How do you know who overvalues sex and undervalues children?

To me scheduling sex and unplanned children seems to place a bigger value on sex and a lesser on kids. “Oh what the heck…well have sex and takes what comes”. Instead of, “I’m ready to bring a child into this world, to love and to nurture them, to ready my body prior to conception such as taking frolic acid so as to reduce birth defects etc and to teach that child all that is good”
 
See this is what gets me, that phrase that is so often used. How do you know who overvalues sex and undervalues children?

To me scheduling sex and unplanned children seems to place a bigger value on sex and a lesser on kids. “Oh what the heck…well have sex and takes what comes”. Instead of, “I’m ready to bring a child into this world, to love and to nurture them, to ready my body prior to conception such as taking frolic acid so as to reduce birth defects etc and to teach that child all that is good”
I think this is where the great divide lies between the two camps (NFP vs ABC). Our society teaches that all children should to be planned. We need to be ready for our baby before he or she is even conceived. I think this is one of the things that causes the damage to relationships–the stress of fearing an unplanned pregnancy.

In all honesty, that is why my husband and I do not use NFP either. Currently we do not use anything at all and God will decide if and when we have another baby. It is also why during a three year period we did not have sex at all. I was having health issues and another pregnancy at that time would not have been wise. The fear was so over powering, stressful and nerve wracking for both of us that we chose celibacy. We had a very easy time if it, especially since he was deployed twice during that time period. It was refreshing to not wonder from month to month, “Am I pregnant? Did I miss some sign?”

In a perfect world, no one would use ABC or NFP. People would just leave it in God’s hands and trust that He has it all worked out. We do not live in a perfect world though. It has been broken since the beginning. Celibacy improved my marriage because it took out a great deal of stress. We have the sort of marriage that we are used to expessing our love in non sexual ways due to his repeated absences (he’s home on average 6 months, gone 9-12, repeat cycle). If celibacy had not worked for us, I have no idea what I would have done. I would like to say I would not have resorted to ABC, but I’m not positive that I wouldn’t have. That is how horribly I hated using NFP, and why I never plan on using it again. It was definitely damaging to my marriage as well.
 
That’s dumb to keep saying the ‘movement’. If you really believe there is some occultish conspiracy going on in the Catholic Church regarding natural family planning, why would you be worried about ‘us’ (whoever us is). If I felt there was some evil thing working against you, I’d go to a priest or Church authority to discuss it.

Mommamaree is obviously a person very sympathetic to your beliefs and you should at least feel some freedom to talk with her personally over private messaging if you are so afraid of ‘the movement’. Heavens to betsies!
First, I am sympathetic to people who are struggling, and I especially care about the weakness in Christian marriages in today’s world. Christians are trying so hard to build healthy, holy marriages founded on Christ, but with lack of catechesis and lack of pastoral support and direction and lack of models of good marriages in their parent’s and grandparents’ lives, marriage is a tragic mess right now. Proper use of sexuality within marriage is the core of this problem, and most Christians are having to wade through the emotional baggage and misinformation all on their own. So yes, I am sympathetic. Not because I approve what the Church condemns, but because I know just how darn hard it is to figure out the Truth and then be able to live it.
Second, there is a movement, and for you to mock sailor for referring to it is both dishonest and unkind. It is the supporters, advocates, teachers, practitioners of NFP, who have begun to speak out against the Culture of Death, as a sub-group of the Pro-life movement. There is the Couple To Couple League, as a notable group which requires membership, but there are also many other forms of NFP, each with their own devotees and support systems. There is the One More Soul organization of physicians who are NFP-only. These people are becoming more and more vocal in battling against the lies of our culture. If you accept that there is a Pro-life movement, then you must accept that there is an NFP-movement.
Finally, you did not start this thread, so you do not get to tell sailor that she must resort to private messaging rather than participate in the thread, to which she was invited to post, simply because you object to her opinions. I am surprised and saddened how quickly we all are to judge each other and make assumptions about each other’s characters and how little we actually ever listen. People who struggle with NFP are patronized and marginalized. There are hundreds of threads here at CAF that demonstrate this very phenomenon. People who promote NFP (not those who merely use it, but those who actively promote it) deny that its use could ever cause any problems, and when they must admit that it sometimes does, the struggling couple gets blamed. The promoters have very little patience with those people who find it difficult or burdensome. There are those within this movement, and yes it is a movement, who say that to NOT use NFP, but instead merely enjoy marital relations with no consideration of fertility and just letting the babies come naturally, are actually sinning as well. I won’t name names, because I cannot recall which spokesperson said that (maybe someone else recalls and can provide the link here?), but it is obvious that the leaders of this movement have “drunk the koolaid” and are really over-reaching.:eek: I think a much more level-headed approach, with intellectual honesty and a strong desire to help couples rather than push an agenda, is really what is needed. And couples who struggle and are willing to be open and talk about it should not be censored. We should listen and learn from them. Who knows what difficulties we might encounter in our marriage? To deny that NFP can ever be difficult and act as if we would never be tempted to go against the teachings of the Church out of fear and confusion is an example of pride goeth before a fall. It would be far better to examine these problems and come up with strategies to deal with the challenges in a timely fashion so that a speed bump is not allowed to grow into a mountain of an obstacle.
 
I agree, for some this issue is very difficult and every couple must prayerfully bring the issue to our Lord (sometimes every day/month/year,and sometimes not) depending on the circumstances. Having the information about the combined state of your fertility is not a sin. We are meant to live in community with one another and if you are really struggling, please know help and support are available.
 
What “movement” are you referring to?
Let me clarify. I see the 5-10% of the church who advocate for NFP at all costs as its own movement. They are the ones who pontificate on it but rarely listen. Such as what you see here in this thread. The ones who say your marriage is really damaged when you know it is healthy and you see the fruits of the Holy Spirit alive and well. They are the ones who insist selfishness rules your marriage and that you really do not like children and that you are using each other. They are the ones who even argue among themselves over who is really doing it right. They are often not kind even to each other. They are the ones who find it important to know if a couples uses ABC or NFP when you meet them in church circles. They have formed their own elite club and I find it to be exclusive. The assumptions they make are so widespread they encompass a movement to me. I’ve been around them so long that in my mind I consider them part of a movement. If it is helpful I could use another term.

I have come to the conclusion that they behave and act this way because they are either bitter about their choice to use NFP or they have the need to make themselves feel better than others. They consider themselves the only true Catholics. They say everyone who disagrees should leave the church. But then don’t realize that if 90% of the church left the church could not stand. I hope this clarifies my choice of the word “movement” for you.

Here is my suggestion: live your faith deeply and let the Holy Spirit work through you. If you are closely following the Lord, couples will be drawn to that. Stop the pontificating and just learn how to engage and listen. The Holy Spirit works over time. Don’t let your need to be right or better be the things that lead you. If your marriage is inline with God’s will it will be a vehicle that transforms both your family and the world. That is when people listen and wonder what it is all about. I don’t see this in many couples I know who use NFP. There is a lack of authenticity and honesty. But still they choose to follow NFP because they believe God will send them to hell otherwise. Consider this may be why so few people in the church embrace this teaching.

I know there are many wonderful couples who use NFP who have very loving marriages. I also know many couples who use ABC that have very loving marriages. I’m not trying to place everyone in the same box. I’m sharing my observations and experience. They are not gospel truth by any means. However, over the course of observing couples 20 plus years I see how the legalism of NFP effects marriages over time. As I said before I think this particular movement in the church needs a different strategy and some humility if it wants to draw others in.

I wanted to test the waters here because I struggle with not being able to be honest or authentic in certain church circles. I will definite continue with the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. I’m not going to go to church and wear a scarlet letter on my forehead. Nor do I want to spend any more of my energy dodging the assumptions and pontificating. So in this case honesty is not the best policy.
 
I think this is where the great divide lies between the two camps (NFP vs ABC). Our society teaches that all children should to be planned. We need to be ready for our baby before he or she is even conceived. I think this is one of the things that causes the damage to relationships–the stress of fearing an unplanned pregnancy.

In all honesty, that is why my husband and I do not use NFP either. Currently we do not use anything at all and God will decide if and when we have another baby. It is also why during a three year period we did not have sex at all. I was having health issues and another pregnancy at that time would not have been wise. The fear was so over powering, stressful and nerve wracking for both of us that we chose celibacy. We had a very easy time if it, especially since he was deployed twice during that time period. It was refreshing to not wonder from month to month, “Am I pregnant? Did I miss some sign?”

In a perfect world, no one would use ABC or NFP. People would just leave it in God’s hands and trust that He has it all worked out. We do not live in a perfect world though. It has been broken since the beginning. Celibacy improved my marriage because it took out a great deal of stress. We have the sort of marriage that we are used to expessing our love in non sexual ways due to his repeated absences (he’s home on average 6 months, gone 9-12, repeat cycle). If celibacy had not worked for us, I have no idea what I would have done. I would like to say I would not have resorted to ABC, but I’m not positive that I wouldn’t have. That is how horribly I hated using NFP, and why I never plan on using it again. It was definitely damaging to my marriage as well.
I agree with your post and it’s the first one that makes sense to me and here’s why…you agree with churches teaches and that is fine, you see the point that in a prefect world it would all be left to God but you accept that we are all human, sinners etc, we all make mistakes.

I think the problem I have with NFP is not necessarily NFP, but the “NFP catholic brigade” who look down their noses at people who are struggling, who may have used ABC, where it’s not a simple process but a complicated mess.

The problem I have is when people say anything outside NFP or natural means you overvalue sex or undervalue kids. It’s the judgemental mindset that NFP seems to create that I have a problem with. Sex doesn’t interest me in the slightest…I love being close to my husband, I love the unity of us being together (regardless of whether we use condoms) but sex is NOT a huge part of our relationship, we love each other beyond sex, that connection. Don’t get me wrong, we haves sex…but not in the rabbits at it world view that some here seem to think those who do not agree with NFP do. I would much rather have this sort if sex which is based on respect, love and happens naturally, than the perfectly timed, regimented sex of NFP.

Some people also make it sound like NFP is a bigger sin than others…we are all sinners and I think people need to look at their own lives before judging others. Yes people will struggle with the teaching and will do things that some people consider wrong, but I can bet the people pointing fingers are not perfect. Just because God gave us fertility and a cycle doesn’t give people the right to judge other peoples marriages.
 
See this is what gets me, that phrase that is so often used. How do you know who overvalues sex and undervalues children?

To me scheduling sex and unplanned children seems to place a bigger value on sex and a lesser on kids. “Oh what the heck…well have sex and takes what comes”. Instead of, “I’m ready to bring a child into this world, to love and to nurture them, to ready my body prior to conception such as taking frolic acid so as to reduce birth defects etc and to teach that child all that is good”
First, that phrase is not so often used. I’ve literally never seen anyone else say that. Ever. Can you point me to where you have seen that, since you’ve seen it so often?

Second, your post is the perfect example of how people undervalue children. It’s all about when you are ready to share your amazingness with a child. The truth is that children are the ones that can share their amazingness with us. Children are the ones that teach us all that is good. We learn the answers through giving ourselves to them and receiving what they have to give. The Catholic Church teaches that we don’t just contribute to our children’s welfare but that children contribute significantly to the parent’s welfare. The Catholic Church teaches that we don’t just teach our children but rather that learning is a “mutual exchange” and that our children teach us.

Sorry but you are listening to ‘the world’, not God. Folic acid is a relatively new thing that humans have been exposed to and really only in a couple of countries. Folic acid is a synthetic associated with cancer and increased mortality. I stay as far away from folic acid as I can! You may want to do some research on that one.
 
Let me clarify. I see the 5-10% of the church who advocate for NFP at all costs as its own movement. They are the ones who pontificate on it but rarely listen. Such as what you see here in this thread. The ones who say your marriage is really damaged when you know it is healthy and you see the fruits of the Holy Spirit alive and well. They are the ones who insist selfishness rules your marriage and that you really do not like children and that you are using each other. They are the ones who even argue among themselves over who is really doing it right. They are often not kind even to each other. They are the ones who find it important to know if a couples uses ABC or NFP when you meet them in church circles. They have formed their own elite club and I find it to be exclusive. The assumptions they make are so widespread they encompass a movement to me. I’ve been around them so long that in my mind I consider them part of a movement. If it is helpful I could use another term.

I have come to the conclusion that they behave and act this way because they are either bitter about their choice to use NFP or they have the need to make themselves feel better than others. They consider themselves the only true Catholics. They say everyone who disagrees should leave the church. But then don’t realize that if 90% of the church left the church could not stand. I hope this clarifies my choice of the word “movement” for you.

Here is my suggestion: live your faith deeply and let the Holy Spirit work through you. If you are closely following the Lord, couples will be drawn to that. Stop the pontificating and just learn how to engage and listen. The Holy Spirit works over time. Don’t let your need to be right or better be the things that lead you. If your marriage is inline with God’s will it will be a vehicle that transforms both your family and the world. That is when people listen and wonder what it is all about. I don’t see this in many couples I know who use NFP. There is a lack of authenticity and honesty. But still they choose to follow NFP because they believe God will send them to hell otherwise. Consider this may be why so few people in the church embrace this teaching.

I know there are many wonderful couples who use NFP who have very loving marriages. I also know many couples who use ABC that have very loving marriages. I’m not trying to place everyone in the same box. I’m sharing my observations and experience. They are not gospel truth by any means. However, over the course of observing couples 20 plus years I see how the legalism of NFP effects marriages over time. As I said before I think this particular movement in the church needs a different strategy and some humility if it wants to draw others in.

I wanted to test the waters here because I struggle with not being able to be honest or authentic in certain church circles. I will definite continue with the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. I’m not going to go to church and wear a scarlet letter on my forehead. Nor do I want to spend any more of my energy dodging the assumptions and pontificating. So in this case honesty is not the best policy.
You shouldn’t make assumptions about me either. I’m from Australia and really in all my years of being an involved Catholic I’ve never come across the type of people you are speaking of. I’ve always been pretty much alone in rejecting artificial birth control and I do mean rejecting because there is so much pressure from many quarters to 'be responsible and use birth control instead of overpopulating this already dying planet’. I assure you that my little ‘movement’ of one… oh and my sister… two… aren’t the goliath you think we are. I will continue to teach my children the Catholic ways in my own little world and shall take my “legalistic”, " theologically inconsistent", “elitist”, “polarised”, “wrong”, “falsely assuming”, “agenda filled”, “pious” “pontificating”, “clichéd”, “chastising”, “admonishing”, “‘worse than a lions den’” “judgemental” (irony) self (with its little movement) and leave the thread to the better crowd. Ta rah.
 
I agree with your post and it’s the first one that makes sense to me and here’s why…you agree with churches teaches and that is fine, you see the point that in a prefect world it would all be left to God but you accept that we are all human, sinners etc, we all make mistakes.

I think the problem I have with NFP is not necessarily NFP, but the “NFP catholic brigade” who look down their noses at people who are struggling, who may have used ABC, where it’s not a simple process but a complicated mess.

The problem I have is when people say anything outside NFP or natural means you overvalue sex or undervalue kids. It’s the judgemental mindset that NFP seems to create that I have a problem with. Sex doesn’t interest me in the slightest…I love being close to my husband, I love the unity of us being together (regardless of whether we use condoms) but sex is NOT a huge part of our relationship, we love each other beyond sex, that connection. Don’t get me wrong, we haves sex…but not in the rabbits at it world view that some here seem to think those who do not agree with NFP do. I would much rather have this sort if sex which is based on respect, love and happens naturally, than the perfectly timed, regimented sex of NFP.

Some people also make it sound like NFP is a bigger sin than others…we are all sinners and I think people need to look at their own lives before judging others. Yes people will struggle with the teaching and will do things that some people consider wrong, but I can bet the people pointing fingers are not perfect. Just because God gave us fertility and a cycle doesn’t give people the right to judge other peoples marriages.
Have you considered that maybe the problem is inside you? You are all about pointing fingers and judging people and then you accuse others of the same. Simply p(name removed by moderator)ointing the problem in our culture – undervaluing children and overvaluing sex – with the way we view things is not judging others. It also doesn’t place a scale on sin, implying that the since of ABC is greater than any other sin. It’s just an opinion about the world. I think if you take off the blinders, you can look around our society and see that it WAY overvalues sex. That’s an understatement. Sex is shoved down our throats nearly constantly. Do you really think that has no effect? Look at the way our culture views children? I mean, seriously! It’s the culture of death! That’s why our society is having less and less children. They are not viewed as the supreme gift of marriage that the Catholic Church teaches that they are.

There is no Catholic NFP brigade. There is a Catholic NFP movement but I honestly don’t’ see a problem with them other than just that they are human so they aren’t perfect. You and others may view them in a negative light because you see things through your own lens just like I do. We all have our own biases. People assume others are looking their noses down at them but they are making it up the majority of the time. Look at the first page in this thread. I posted that I’m basically letting God space my children and the very next poster said that they don’t need to feel like they are doing something wrong by using NFP and not letting God space their children. See what I mean? My own choice says nothing about that posters choice! The way people view things isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection of the behavior of those around them.
 
No one judges those who use ABC. We are called to be a joyful witness of Church teaching. If this is not what what you experiencing - an apology may be needed. If so, consider it given, forgive, pray,seek, and you will find even more faith than you have now (which sounds like something to be envious of - but we should not covet:)!
 
Sorry but you are listening to ‘the world’, not God. Folic acid is a relatively new thing that humans have been exposed to and really only in a couple of countries. Folic acid is a synthetic associated with cancer and increased mortality. I stay as far away from folic acid as I can! You may want to do some research on that one.
I have done my research…
 
Have you considered that maybe the problem is inside you? You are all about pointing fingers and judging people and then you accuse others of the same. Simply p(name removed by moderator)ointing the problem in our culture – undervaluing children and overvaluing sex – with the way we view things is not judging others. It also doesn’t place a scale on sin, implying that the since of ABC is greater than any other sin. It’s just an opinion about the world. I think if you take off the blinders, you can look around our society and see that it WAY overvalues sex. That’s an understatement. Sex is shoved down our throats nearly constantly. Do you really think that has no effect? Look at the way our culture views children? I mean, seriously! It’s the culture of death! That’s why our society is having less and less children. They are not viewed as the supreme gift of marriage that the Catholic Church teaches that they are.

There is no Catholic NFP brigade. There is a Catholic NFP movement but I honestly don’t’ see a problem with them other than just that they are human so they aren’t perfect. You and others may view them in a negative light because you see things through your own lens just like I do. We all have our own biases. People assume others are looking their noses down at them but they are making it up the majority of the time. Look at the first page in this thread. I posted that I’m basically letting God space my children and the very next poster said that they don’t need to feel like they are doing something wrong by using NFP and not letting God space their children. See what I mean? My own choice says nothing about that posters choice! The way people view things isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection of the behavior of those around them.
Im not judging people…I don’t care at all if people want to use NFP, I haven’t got anything against those who choose to use NFP. My problem is I can’t see why ABC is a problem, nowhere have I judged or condemned people for using NFP so please don’t use false accusations.

Don’t confuse me turning logic around and me using what other people have posted in a different viewpoint with me pointing fingers. On this site, people have said that ABC and the world etc undervalues sex, it damages marriage etc or words to that effect, I was simply stating that from my viewpoint I can see that same logic in NFP. I’m not the one telling people, don’t do this, don’t do that.

If people want to use ABC, NFP, natural, abstain…I don’t care…it’s none of my business, everyone is a sinner…it’s between them and God no one else. So don’t throw false accusations my way about judging. I’m not the one saying “your following the world, not God, take your blinders off” and blah blah blah…look in the mirror love if you want to see a sinner…
 
I have done my research…
That’s what you got out of that whole post? I find that quite telling. Let’s look to the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor in spirit. Humbling ourselves is one of the major keys to everything else including truths about NFP and contraception.
 
That’s what you got out of that whole post? I find that quite telling. Let’s look to the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor in spirit. Humbling ourselves is one of the major keys to everything else including truths about NFP and contraception.
No I just simply didn’t want to engage.

People who assume no research has been done ( especially in a anonymous forum where you don’t know what degrees I hold of what my job is) are always going to make assumptions etc and I just don’t see the point in engaging. You have your opinion, I have mine, but I would never assume you are uninformed or haven’t done your research. You just come from a different perspective and that’s fine. But I don’t see the point in engaging with people who are assuming I’m uninformed 🤷
 
Im not judging people…I don’t care at all if people want to use NFP, I haven’t got anything against those who choose to use NFP. My problem is I can’t see why ABC is a problem, nowhere have I judged or condemned people for using NFP so please don’t use false accusations.

Don’t confuse me turning logic around and me using what other people have posted in a different viewpoint with me pointing fingers. On this site, people have said that ABC and the world etc undervalues sex, it damages marriage etc or words to that effect, I was simply stating that from my viewpoint I can see that same logic in NFP. I’m not the one telling people, don’t do this, don’t do that.

If people want to use ABC, NFP, natural, abstain…I don’t care…it’s none of my business, everyone is a sinner…it’s between them and God no one else. So don’t throw false accusations my way about judging. I’m not the one saying “your following the world, not God, take your blinders off” and blah blah blah…look in the mirror love if you want to see a sinner…
That’s not a false accusation. You just judged the so-called “Catholic NFP brigade”. You also judge others when you deem that what they are doing is fine. If you can judge, then don’t point the finger at others for doing the same.
 
Im not judging people…I don’t care at all if people want to use NFP, I haven’t got anything against those who choose to use NFP. My problem is I can’t see why ABC is a problem, nowhere have I judged or condemned people for using NFP so please don’t use false accusations.

Don’t confuse me turning logic around and me using what other people have posted in a different viewpoint with me pointing fingers. On this site, people have said that ABC and the world etc undervalues sex, it damages marriage etc or words to that effect, I was simply stating that from my viewpoint I can see that same logic in NFP. I’m not the one telling people, don’t do this, don’t do that.

If people want to use ABC, NFP, natural, abstain…I don’t care…it’s none of my business, everyone is a sinner…it’s between them and God no one else. So don’t throw false accusations my way about judging. I’m not the one saying “your following the world, not God, take your blinders off” and blah blah blah…look in the mirror love if you want to see a sinner…
I’ve also noticed this among some supporters of NFP. It is not enough to say the Church teaches that other attempts to limit births are unacceptable and therefore Catholics shouldn’t use them. There seems to be a need to bring about a temporal effect that is here and now. Such as it makes the spouses selfish, results in them using each other… Of course, some of that is due to the fact that these were arguments used in HV.

The real problem I see with such an argument (an immanentizing of the consequences of ABC) is that it doesn’t work. Because, when those results aren’t seen, the person using ABC realizes there is no consequence to using ABC.

Whereas if the promoters of NFP used the argument, you’ll go to Hell, at least that one can’t be disproved by experience. Of course, that would require that people actually believe in Hell as a possibility.
 
I’ve also noticed this among some supporters of NFP. It is not enough to say the Church teaches that other attempts to limit births are unacceptable and therefore Catholics shouldn’t use them. There seems to be a need to bring about a temporal effect that is here and now. Such as it makes the spouses selfish, results in them using each other… Of course, some of that is due to the fact that these were arguments used in HV.

The real problem I see with such an argument (an immanentizing of the consequences of ABC) is that it doesn’t work. Because, when those results aren’t seen, the person using ABC realizes there is no consequence to using ABC.

Whereas if the promoters of NFP used the argument, you’ll go to Hell, at least that one can’t be disproved by experience. Of course, that would require that people actually believe in Hell as a possibility.
That’s an interesting perspective…👍
 
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