Abandoning NFP - damaging the Marriage?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rau
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
CarrieSpooner said:
That’s not a false accusation. You just judged the so-called “Catholic NFP brigade”. You also judge others when you deem that what they are doing is fine. If you can judge, then don’t point the finger at others for doing the same.
Click to expand...
Would you rather me tell you, you don’t have a right to your perspective? :confused: “and that’s fine” is just a figure of speech stating something that is, it in no way implies judging…
 
CarrieSpooner said:
There is no Catholic NFP brigade. There is a Catholic NFP movement but I honestly don’t’ see a problem with them other than just that they are human so they aren’t perfect. You and others may view them in a negative light because you see things through your own lens just like I do. We all have our own biases. People assume others are looking their noses down at them but they are making it up the majority of the time. Look at the first page in this thread. I posted that I’m basically letting God space my children and the very next poster said that they don’t need to feel like they are doing something wrong by using NFP and not letting God space their children. See what I mean? My own choice says nothing about that posters choice! The way people view things isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection of the behavior of those around them.
Click to expand...
momoffamily said:
No one judges those who use ABC. We are called to be a joyful witness of Church teaching. If this is not what what you experiencing - an apology may be needed. If so, consider it given, forgive, pray,seek, and you will find even more faith than you have now (which sounds like something to be envious of - but we should not covet:)!
Click to expand...
Maybe you guys haven’t been here on, CAF, long enough or often enough. But there certainly seems like there is a Catholic NFP brigade. And there seems to be a lot of judging going on about .

**I see it. And I use NFP. **

If I mention that I used ABC at the start of our marriage, then switched to NFP, I am told,

“Isn’t married life so much better?” Um, no.

“Don’t you feel much more open to children?” Um, no.

“Doesn’t your husband look at you as a valuable human being, now?” Really? That is your question?

Then of course comes the question, “how many children have you had as you became open to life?” Um, none. Same as when I was taking the pill.

Those questions may not seem judgmental to you, but they are.
 
How about an analogy.The Church says we must tithe, in some way. For some this may mean tithing time because resources are stretched. Perhaps circimstances dictate that even this is not possible.
We go to Mass. The collection basket rolls by us once again. We feel a twinge. Perhaps we even start to think the other parishioners are thinking ill of us. In fact, Mrs. X sounds like she is boasting during coffee and donuts about the new holy water fonts which are possible through her donation.Is Mrs. X boasting, or is she thankful to God about the money she inherited which made this donation possible? It is becoming harder to discern.

Maybe we realize our decision is the right one for us at this time and her talk of holy water fonts does not bother us. We can not afford another penny to the Church, or another minute of time away from our family schedule to do good works for the parish. The family is functioning well, everyone is happy. We have found happiness and balance. We have become reconciled with not tithing. Still, a voice somewhere in our heart says it may be possible. Our children are getting older and we would like to explain this teaching to them. A person in the parish is trained to help the couple put everything down on paper to examine the issue together, in complete confidence. This person feels called to do this as a ministry. Recording the finances and time resources is not a sin.In fact it has made it possible to re-examine our situation. We may not always need to do this, but deliberately doing this at this time might be beneficial.

Maybe we did not utilize the trained person. Our situation changes. By this time the family is so used to not tithing, it is difficult to go back to the former lifestyle. A wall has been built up in our mind about the whole issue. It is hard to connect with “those folks” who have continued to tithe. We have made plenty of friends over the years and we really do not need the judgemental attitudes of those we broke with so long ago. This option of not tithing does not define our family or our faith. But, there is one family in the parish who has continued to be so kind, joyful, friendly, and Christ-like to us. Perhaps we will talk with them about returning to tithing.
I pray there are families like the last one you can turn to. Blessings.
 
LongingSoul said:
You shouldn’t make assumptions about me either. I’m from Australia and really in all my years of being an involved Catholic I’ve never come across the type of people you are speaking of. I’ve always been pretty much alone in rejecting artificial birth control and I do mean rejecting because there is so much pressure from many quarters to 'be responsible and use birth control instead of overpopulating this already dying planet’. I assure you that my little ‘movement’ of one… oh and my sister… two… aren’t the goliath you think we are. I will continue to teach my children the Catholic ways in my own little world and shall take my “legalistic”, " theologically inconsistent", “elitist”, “polarised”, “wrong”, “falsely assuming”, “agenda filled”, “pious” “pontificating”, “clichéd”, “chastising”, “admonishing”, “‘worse than a lions den’” “judgemental” (irony) self (with its little movement) and leave the thread to the better crowd. Ta rah.
Click to expand...
Peace be with you, longing.

I used those words because I was letting you know how you were coming across to me. You still did not take a step back and listen and continued to pontificate. All the things I mentioned were things you said based on not even knowing me. I understand that may be because you are coming from a different place where you always have to be on the defensive because nobody else embraces what you do. While you are alone in your journey in Australia your response and manner of engaging matches what I see across the board by those who embrace this position. I heard your words many, many times before and they mirror what those in this movement always say.

Despite being alone in Australia you have the connection here on this forum which has formed the way you approach this subject and respond to people. For me personally, that approach in not helpful or productive. I let you know that and you continued with it. I am wondering if you have had success using this approach with others. Perhaps not and that is why you are not able to bring anyone else on board with you where you live? Could you try a different kind of evangelization? People are drawn to those who are living the Truth deeply from a place of grace and freedom. Stick with that place and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. Starting out with admonishing and chastising shuts the door of dialogue. It does not mean you will never get your chance to share the catechism quotes etc. It means you listen and over time follow the prompts of the Holy Spirit. I see people convert by what they see in real life, not what they hear in regard to doctrine or catechism quotes. When they see a couple that carries that presence of God they want to know what that is all about.

I’m sorry your journey has been a lonely one. Can you connect more with those online who support your beliefs? This group has a loud voice on the Catholic internet and offers plenty of discussion and support. It sounds like it has been a very difficult road for you doing what you believe God wants you to do. I have been immersed in this NFP culture for decades so we definitely are at 2 different places. I am glad I am breaking free from this culture. I’ve gone from being on the inside of it to now being an outside observer. It is not easy to break away from the beliefs of your community especially when hold going to hell over your head.

I pray for you the best on your journey.
 
maryjk said:
Maybe you guys haven’t been here on, CAF, long enough or often enough. But there certainly seems like there is a Catholic NFP brigade. And there seems to be a lot of judging going on about .

**I see it. And I use NFP. **

If I mention that I used ABC at the start of our marriage, then switched to NFP, I am told,

“Isn’t married life so much better?” Um, no.

“Don’t you feel much more open to children?” Um, no.

“Doesn’t your husband look at you as a valuable human being, now?” Really? That is your question?

Then of course comes the question, “how many children have you had as you became open to life?” Um, none. Same as when I was taking the pill.

Those questions may not seem judgmental to you, but they are.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is very true. I know that often we (as a collective group of people) tend to argue our ideal, and I think (hope) that many of us are not truly as judgmental/opinionated as we come across on CAF, BUT we have definitely broken into three distinct camps. In camp 1 we have the NFP users, camp 2 we have the ABC users, and camp 3 we have the neither. And the divide seems to get deeper and wider the more we “dialogue” because too many people are busy talking and no one wants to listen. How can we ever become a united voice in the Church if we cannot reach understanding and empathy? But until people decide to cut through their own agendas (and admit they have one), and begin listening to the other camps no one will make any progress on the bridge building
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
Would you rather me tell you, you don’t have a right to your perspective? :confused: “and that’s fine” is just a figure of speech stating something that is, it in no way implies judging…
Click to expand...
No, I would not rather tell you that. You have a right to judge. We all do. You seem to persist in this idea that you aren’t judging but then point the finger at others for being judgmental.
 
CarrieSpooner said:
No, I would not rather tell you that. **You have a right to judge. We all do. **You seem to persist in this idea that you aren’t judging but then point the finger at others for being judgmental.
Click to expand...
Nobody has a right to judge…just because people do sometimes judge doesn’t give us the right to. :eek: I actually can’t believe you said that. Yes I sometimes judge, I’m human and not perfect and slip up. But I don’t have the right to judge. It even says that in the Bible.

I said I wasn’t judging people on NFP or those that use it, never said I didn’t judge generally in life.
 
maryjk said:
Maybe you guys haven’t been here on, CAF, long enough or often enough. But there certainly seems like there is a Catholic NFP brigade. And there seems to be a lot of judging going on about .

**I see it. And I use NFP. **

If I mention that I used ABC at the start of our marriage, then switched to NFP, I am told,

“Isn’t married life so much better?” Um, no.

“Don’t you feel much more open to children?” Um, no.

“Doesn’t your husband look at you as a valuable human being, now?” Really? That is your question?

Then of course comes the question, “how many children have you had as you became open to life?” Um, none. Same as when I was taking the pill.

Those questions may not seem judgmental to you, but they are.
Click to expand...
I’ve been reading this board regularly for more than a year. I think that should be long enough to get a sense of what it’s like around here. It’s all about the way you view things. I don’t have a dog in the fight so that effects my view in different way than someone who does.

I don’t see how these questions are some kind of evidence of a harmful Catholic NFP brigade. If you are expecting that anyone who speaks of NFP is only going to do so in a way that is pleasing to you, that’s not realistic. And even if everyone speaks about it in a way that is pleasing to you, it’s not going to please the next guy who has his own complaints about the NFP brigade. I have noticed that a lot of NFP users seem to want to control how others present NFP.

Also, just because you don’t see something, doesn’t mean it’s not true. This is one of the greatest mysteries of Christianity and a frequent theme in scripture and the Catechism. People who have ears ought to hear. But not everyone does. People who have eyes ought to see. But not everyone does. My own perspective of how I have viewed my own circumstances has changed greatly over time, by the grace of God.

One example is that I suffered for many many years and never let it sanctify me. This has nothing to do with NFP but it seems like a fitting analogy. When I read more from the Church about suffering, it completely changed my perspective. Suffering serves for conversion but only if one lets it. So just because a spouse doesn’t appear to reap the rewards of the good things that the lack of contraception can do in their lives, doesn’t mean there isn’t great value in denying contraception. It’s an ever harder sell with suffering. But this is one of the things that Jesus came to show us – he turned upside down our conventional way of viewing things. He showed us a different way of what love looks like. Love looks like a man dying on the cross. That’s the vision of pure joy. It depends on if you are looking at things through the eye of the world or through the eye of truth.
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
Nobody has a right to judge…just because people do sometimes judge doesn’t give us the right to. :eek: I actually can’t believe you said that. Yes I sometimes judge, I’m human and not perfect and slip up. But I don’t have the right to judge. It even says that in the Bible.

I said I wasn’t judging people on NFP or those that use it, never said I didn’t judge generally in life.
Click to expand...
Believe it! We are called to be judgmental. There’s a difference between judging actions and judging souls. We must judge actions to know right from wrong. Where does the Bible say that you don’t have the right to judge actions?
 
CarrieSpooner said:
Believe it! We are called to be judgmental. There’s a difference between judging actions and judging souls. We must judge actions to know right from wrong. Where does the Bible say that you don’t have the right to judge actions?
Click to expand...
I could list so many passages but I’m not going to, your heart is clearly hardened.

If the Catholic Church teaches to judge others that has just made everything so abundantly clear. It’s false and I will not be joining it…
 
Quite frankly, it doesn’t matter if anyone thinks the Church is wrong or not, because the Church has authority on matters on morals or faith. That said, there are those of us that struggle with issues that are stated to be infallible where the source is solely in Tradition.
Click to expand...
Couple notes.
  1. Tis not solely in Tradition.
  2. We know what is Sacred Scripture-- via Tradition and the Teaching Authority of the Church.
Jesus founded the Church and gave her the authority she has.
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
I could list so many passages but I’m not going to, your heart is clearly hardened.
.
Click to expand...
Seriously? You are going to now judge my heart right after you just said you have no right to judge. Is that the angle you want to pursue here? Just tell me the Bible verses and I assure you that I will consider with an open heart, what you have to say. If I am wrong about The Bible, I am open to being corrected.
If the Catholic Church teaches to judge others that has just made everything so abundantly clear. It’s false and I will not be joining it…
Click to expand...
Is this the truth speaking through you or is this pride?
 
maryjk said:
Maybe you guys haven’t been here on, CAF, long enough or often enough. But there certainly seems like there is a Catholic NFP brigade. And there seems to be a lot of judging going on about .

**I see it. And I use NFP. **

If I mention that I used ABC at the start of our marriage, then switched to NFP, I am told,

“Isn’t married life so much better?” Um, no.

“Don’t you feel much more open to children?” Um, no.

“Doesn’t your husband look at you as a valuable human being, now?” Really? That is your question?

Then of course comes the question, “how many children have you had as you became open to life?” Um, none. Same as when I was taking the pill.

Those questions may not seem judgmental to you, but they are.
Click to expand...
Thank you for pointing this out. I hope that some people see this and realize how their questions come off to other people sometimes. 👍
 
CarrieSpooner said:
Seriously? You are going to now judge my heart right after you just said you have no right to judge. Is that the angle you want to pursue here? Just tell me the Bible verses and I assure you that I will consider with an open heart, what you have to say. If I am wrong about The Bible, I am open to being corrected.

Is this the truth speaking through you or is this pride?
Click to expand...
No it’s truth…not judging others is one thing I am certain on, it’s clear as day in the bible. There are issues I am very certain of and this is one of them. If the Catholic Church truly teaches it’s ok to judge, I’m not joining it.

Matthew 7:1
Luke 6:37
James 4:11

There are loads more…
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
No it’s truth…not judging others is one thing I am certain on, it’s clear as day in the bible. There are issues I am very certain of and this is one of them. If the Catholic Church truly teaches it’s ok to judge, I’m not joining it.

Matthew 7:1
Luke 6:37
James 4:11

There are loads more…
Click to expand...
What if I told you that Jesus teaches us to judge? Would that change your mind? What do you make of John 7:24 when Jesus said:

"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

^He not only tells us to judge but how to judge!

I appreciate you sharing the verses that you mentioned. I take them a different way than you do. The Matthew and Luke verses are essentially the same thing, so I will address them as one. It says “Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.” But don’t we know that we will definitely be judged? So what do you make of that? If you look at in context, it appears that He is speaking about hypocritical judgment. Read the rest of the paragraph. The Bible tells us that we will be judged on judgment day and I assume you don’t think anyone can be free from that judgment…do you?

The James verse just doesn’t even say not to judge. I can go into more details about that one if you like. I’m actually in the middle of a Jeff Cavins Bible study on James at a local Parish right now.
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
No it’s truth…not judging others is one thing I am certain on, it’s clear as day in the bible. There are issues I am very certain of and this is one of them. If the Catholic Church truly teaches it’s ok to judge, I’m not joining it.

Matthew 7:1
Luke 6:37
James 4:11

There are loads more…
Click to expand...
How far should we take that? Theft? Murder? Rape? are we not to judge?

Why are there rules in the Catholic faith talking about if someone should go to confession or receive communion if we are not to judge?

How dare we tell anyone ANYTHING is wrong?!
Genocide, child trade, etc.? Who are we to judge?:rolleyes:
 
Wow, this thread has completely flown off track! I’m not sure that anyone is going to be able to make their point of view understood at this point. And now we may even be chasing people AWAY from Jesus instead of drawing them CLOSER to Him. I am not sure that this is the way God intended for us to evangelize.
 
CarrieSpooner said:
I don’t see how these questions are some kind of evidence of a harmful Catholic NFP brigade. If you are expecting that anyone who speaks of NFP is only going to do so in a way that is pleasing to you, that’s not realistic. And even if everyone speaks about it in a way that is pleasing to you, it’s not going to please the next guy who has his own complaints about the NFP brigade. I have noticed that a lot of NFP users seem to want to control how others present NFP.
Click to expand...
You don’t see how insinuating that my husband didn’t see me as a valuable human being, as being harmful? Really?

Sorry, but that isn’t a problem with me wanting to have people presenting NFP in a certain way. :nope:

No, that is an attack on my marriage. And instead of attacking my marriage, people should be supporting* everyone’s* marriage. And that should happen regardless of their stance on NFP.
Also, just because you don’t see something, doesn’t mean it’s not true. This is one of the greatest mysteries of Christianity and a frequent theme in scripture and the Catechism. People who have ears ought to hear. But not everyone does. People who have eyes ought to see. But not everyone does. My own perspective of how I have viewed my own circumstances has changed greatly over time, by the grace of God.
Click to expand...
And yet you are saying that since you haven’t seen the Catholic NFP brigade, it doesn’t exist?
 
To get back to the original question. Will abandoning NFP and going to ABC damage the marriage?
Here’s the deal. Marriage as a sacrament will be a means to spread the truth of the Church to the world.It is an outward sign as all of the sacraments are meant to be. Will turning to ABC damage the relationship between the spouses? Maybe and maybe not. In fact because the couple is not discussing the matter so much it could be a bit of relief for a time, perhaps even permanently.

The better question is will turning to ABC or sterilization damage the marriage sacrament and its purpose? I do not think there would be much discussion on that. Yes, it would damage ability to convey Church teaching to others.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top