Abandoning NFP - damaging the Marriage?

[Truth_Faith13]

How far should we take that? Theft? Murder? Rape? are we not to judge?

Why are there rules in the Catholic faith talking about if someone should go to confession or receive communion if we are not to judge?

How dare we tell anyone ANYTHING is wrong?!
Genocide, child trade, etc.? Who are we to judge?

Confession is different, people should judge THEMSELVES and go to confession. However it’s not another persons right to judge a sin and say “go to confession” (unless the person is asking for advice). Only God can judge ultimately and during confession the PRIEST is standing in for Christ. As far as I am aware every day catholics aren’t on the other side of the screen.

Murder, theft and rape are all illegal and have the right legal proceedings in place. We are taught to forgive are we not? Jesus rebuked the eye for an eye thing? Yes it is hard especially when someone has wronged us but only God can judge that person truly. We can’t be the ones to tell them how they stand with God. Besides discipline & correction is not the same as judging. If a child disobeys someone, you correct them, but that isn’t judging.

Take a murderer…murder is wrong, correction of that wrong is right…I am not saying agree with the act but to say something like “well he’s a catholic what do you expect” would be judging, we can’t know the reasons or the history of that person…the judgement should be left to God as only God knows our heart & soul.

 

[Rau]

I’m nearly past my fertile years but in all the years of mothering through the Catholic system, 99% of the friends and acquaintances I have made, use ABC.

Just an observation - I’m amazed that people, “acquaintances”, would volunteer this information. What does that say? Presumably no concern of chastisement, and an expectation that you use ABC too? But why volunteer the information at all?

 

[CarrieSpooner]

Just an observation - I’m amazed that people, “acquaintances”, would volunteer this information. What does that say? Presumably no concern of chastisement, and an expectation that you use ABC too? But why volunteer the information at all?

I’m guessing you are not a woman?

 

[maryjk]

Just an observation - I’m amazed that people, “acquaintances”, would volunteer this information. What does that say? Presumably no concern of chastisement, and an expectation that you use ABC too? But why volunteer the information at all?

When I used ABC, I didn’t advertise. Now that I use NFP? I don’t advertise that, either.

(Except here, where no one knows me.)

 

[CarrieSpooner]

You don’t see how insinuating that my husband didn’t see me as a valuable human being, as being harmful? Really?

Sorry, but that isn’t a problem with me wanting to have people presenting NFP in a certain way. :nope:

No, that is an attack on my marriage. And instead of attacking my marriage, people should be supporting* everyone’s* marriage. And that should happen regardless of their stance on NFP.
And yet you are saying that since you haven’t seen the Catholic NFP brigade, it doesn’t exist?

No, that’s not what I’m saying. Are you seriously arguing that something called a “Catholic NFP brigade” exists? That’s so vague, that’s worse than the phrase “war on terror”. I fully admit that there are people who say displeasing things. The fact that people don’t speak perfectly does not a brigade make. A brigade is a definable term. People are not perfect and all pleasing. But not everyone would hear that comment and take it the way you did.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

No, that’s not what I’m saying. Are you seriously arguing that something called a “Catholic NFP brigade” exists? That’s so vague, that’s worse than the phrase “war on terror”. I fully admit that there are people who say displeasing things. The fact that people don’t speak perfectly does not a brigade make. A brigade is a definable term. People are not perfect and all pleasing. But not everyone would hear that comment and take it the way you did.

I would and I know of others that would too!

Not everyone would say that comment the way you would and think it acceptable.

 

[LongingSoul]

Despite being alone in Australia you have the connection here on this forum which has formed the way you approach this subject and respond to people. For me personally, that approach in not helpful or productive. I let you know that and you continued with it. I am wondering if you have had success using this approach with others. Perhaps not and that is why you are not able to bring anyone else on board with you where you live? Could you try a different kind of evangelization? People are drawn to those who are living the Truth deeply from a place of grace and freedom. Stick with that place and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. Starting out with admonishing and chastising shuts the door of dialogue. It does not mean you will never get your chance to share the catechism quotes etc. It means you listen and over time follow the prompts of the Holy Spirit. I see people convert by what they see in real life, not what they hear in regard to doctrine or catechism quotes. When they see a couple that carries that presence of God they want to know what that is all about.

I’m not here to evangelize you. You made it clear from your very first post that you had read everything the Church has said on the contraception and catagorically reject it. That you were not open to discussion or to listening to any body who was against contraception. So you clearly established that you weren’t up for listening to the other side from the get go.

I spoke from a place of defending Church teaching for the benefit of anyone else who might have been reading. We are all the Church and here on the internet, there is so much disdain for Catholics who follow the Church in the spirit of submission and defiance of secularism. Those forces of secularism are so strong that no little ‘movement’ on the internet is going to make the slightest dent in contraceptive theory and sexual freedom other than by keeping the flame alive in their own environments with their own children.

I’ve never gone out to ‘evangelise’ people to the nfp ‘movement’ in my journey of Catholicism. In my true life I’ll speak of it when we have been in discussions specifically about it, but most friends just simply know I use that and think I’m being unnecessarily old fashioned and missing out. I don’t believe in sex before marriage either. I don’t believe in IVF and surrogacy either. I believe in the obligation upon me to go the Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. I impress all these important values onto my children and sometimes their friends if the topics come up… even though the boys are in their 20’s and choose not to accept the majority of it. The generation they live in is so contemptful of Catholic teaching and the ‘evil’ of submissive faithfulness to the Vatican… the ‘whore of Babylon’.

But I still take every opportunity to defend the Church and to practice the faith because I know it is right and her every value is for the sake of our souls and eternal happiness. We are going to be persecuted for defending those and that’s guaranteed. It was never guaranteed to be easy.

I’m sorry your journey has been a lonely one. Can you connect more with those online who support your beliefs? This group has a loud voice on the Catholic internet and offers plenty of discussion and support. It sounds like it has been a very difficult road for you doing what you believe God wants you to do. I have been immersed in this NFP culture for decades so we definitely are at 2 different places. I am glad I am breaking free from this culture. I’ve gone from being on the inside of it to now being an outside observer. It is not easy to break away from the beliefs of your community especially when hold going to hell over your head.

What I do find not just on this site,but common to every site and in the real life communities… is the ‘clique’ thing, but I think that is a personality thing rather than anything to do with Catholic folk in general. I’ve never been a ‘clique-ee’ type person. I prefer to remain as uncompromised as possible by any other pressure to loyalty. People can justify even ‘blood coups’ against the innocent based on loyalty to their cliques so I just prefer to wander around trying to keep Gods voice as loud as I can in my ear. I’m not looking for any online cliques of any sort.

 

[CarrieSpooner]

I would and I know of others that would too!

Not everyone would say that comment the way you would and think it acceptable.

That’s exactly my point. People take things certain ways depending on their personal bias, the lens in which they view things. Therefore, the way a person takes something isn’t necessarily indicative of how the speaker intended it to be taken. It may “turn off” some people and for others it may help them see something in a different light. We don’t get to dictate how other people speak. Neither you, nor I, are able to accurately determine the best way for every single person to speak about NFP. There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t see another article or blog post about the way people view NFP. There isn’t a brigade. There are just a variety of opinions and people speaking out in different ways. This can’t be validly blamed for other people’s choice to reject truth.

 

[sailor28]

“How can we ever become a united voice in the Church if we cannot reach understanding and empathy? But until people decide to cut through their own agendas (and admit they have one), and begin listening to the other camps no one will make any progress on the bridge building”

Armyrugrats: This is a good question. I will think and pray about it. The church proclaims that we have unity as Catholics but I do not see that. Even among those who believe everything the church teaches. That is human nature for you I personally experience unity in a much different way, a much broader way with the whole human race. I see the woman who just got out of prison due to a drug history trying to get on her feet. She has epilepsy because her husband beat her. Still she wants to get a job. Overcoming what she has been through and pressing on, to me, is heroic virtue. Yet, she would not walk into my church or any church for that matter. I see God’s presence in many, many ways that would be consider outside the box or unorthodox. A couple of the families I know that dissent from this teaching live heroically caring for children with special needs. Children who will be dependent on them the rest of their lives. I see NFP promoters use derogatory names and assumptions and it drives people away. Yet, even though they disagree, they would make progress if they recognized God is present and working in these couple’s lives.

The problem for me is that I can not be honest and open in my church community so there is no room for dialogue. Most people I know who are faith-filled but dissent on this teaching do not come to sites like this or engage the NFP crowd in their parish. Because there is no dialogue. They realize it is a dead end. They have done their searching, reading, praying and seeking and have come to a different conclusion than the church came to.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Confession is different, people should judge THEMSELVES and go to confession. However it’s not another persons right to judge a sin and say “go to confession” (unless the person is asking for advice). Only God can judge ultimately and during confession the PRIEST is standing in for Christ. As far as I am aware every day catholics aren’t on the other side of the screen.

Murder, theft and rape are all illegal and have the right legal proceedings in place. We are taught to forgive are we not? Jesus rebuked the eye for an eye thing? Yes it is hard especially when someone has wronged us but only God can judge that person truly. We can’t be the ones to tell them how they stand with God. Besides discipline & correction is not the same as judging. If a child disobeys someone, you correct them, but that isn’t judging.

Take a murderer…murder is wrong, correction of that wrong is right…I am not saying agree with the act but to say something like “well he’s a catholic what do you expect” would be judging, we can’t know the reasons or the history of that person…the judgement should be left to God as only God knows our heart & soul.

You are confused. There are many things that are separate issues here. Legality is not the judge of sin. Many laws have nothing to do with sin and in many countries sometimes being christian or doing christian things would be against the law. Sometimes it could be a capitol offense.

But we are to judge. In fact we are not even to judge for ourselves if we should go to confession the Church teaches that you MUST go to confession at least once a year. So, someone judged that all need to go to confession. Not only that but one of the spiritual works of mercy is “admonish the sinner” You can read about that here,
newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

How does one admonish a sinner? How are we to perform this work if we cannot judge something?

Is the Church asking the impossible? Is She asking you to be merciful when the Bible says do not judge?

And if you put the Logic into theoLOGIC discussions that involve the mantra “judge not” You must take that further.

So if a society lets children be sexually abused and it is not against the law? Are you ready to make the argument that we are not to judge? That we should not act to protect children?

Or in our own society. Should we be pro choice because it is only up to God to judge an action?

Judge not, except by the standard that YOU will be judged. It is not against “judging” at all but rather a protection and warning against hypocrisy. By what I judge, is the standard I will be judged, by what I forgive, I will be forgiven. So, if I am stealing money from a retirement fund from the company I work for, but sit in judgement of a common bank robber, I should not be hypocritical.

The fact of the matter is that we are called to judge. And we are called to help. And we are called to fight injustice. Be it child murder, or ABC. Sin is sin.

IF you truly believe that Jesus meant to not judge in the way you believe, then why adhere to ANY rules of the faith? Why ask anyone to do any of it? Why would you believe those words in that way but not other words given by the same Holy spirit? About ABC, Homosexual marriage, abortion.

I am sure you do judge. I am sure you judge other Catholics. I am sure you even judge those who counsel others to repent and sin no more. Who was that who said that? John the Baptist. Was he overstepping his bounds by judging others to be in sin?

Only God can judge the SOUL of someone, but anyone can judge an action. And God actually commands that you do!

Also noted is this verse\ 1Cor 11:29

For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

Now, why is it that the Judge not crowd have such a hard time with other verses? If only they defended the Bible and the Church as much as they defend their own pride by using one verse, without understanding it, out of context.

Why would anyone want to be a member of a religion that did not have objective Truth and black and white matters of morals?

 

[sailor28]

longingsoul: “So you clearly established that you weren’t up for listening to the other side from the get go”

I did. I made it clear I spent a looonnnng time listening and my intent in this post was not to have to hear the same thing again. I’ve spent more time listening to it than would even be consider healthy for anyone. Yet, you felt the need to persist. That is where you lost me. If you were putting it out there for the benefit of others then don’t quote me on what I said and direct the post to me.

 

[maryjk]

I would and I know of others that would too!

Not everyone would say that comment the way you would and think it acceptable.

I really try to see the good in everyone and everything.

I try not to take things the wrong way. I try not to take things personally, that aren’t meant personally.

But I cannot, as hard as I try, take this question in a positive light. I don’t know how it could be meant in any other way but personally.

“Doesn’t your husband look at you as a valuable human being, now?”

When one person asks you that question you brush it off. When multiple people indicate the same feelings or statements, then you wonder about “the brigade of NFPers.”

But this is getting us totally off track.

I simply wanted to back those that say there is a definite divide among Catholics. I agree and I have experienced it.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Maybe you guys haven’t been here on, CAF, long enough or often enough. But there certainly seems like there is a Catholic NFP brigade. And there seems to be a lot of judging going on about .

**I see it. And I use NFP. **

If I mention that I used ABC at the start of our marriage, then switched to NFP, I am told,

“Isn’t married life so much better?” Um, no.

“Don’t you feel much more open to children?” Um, no.

“Doesn’t your husband look at you as a valuable human being, now?” Really? That is your question?

Then of course comes the question, “how many children have you had as you became open to life?” Um, none. Same as when I was taking the pill.

Those questions may not seem judgmental to you, but they are.

Thank you! These above questions and insinuations are one of the reasons that I always tune out when someone starts talking about Christian and/or Catholic sexual morality.

Especially the questions and comments about my husband. When people tell me that my husband is taking advantage of me because I’m on the pill, that’s a no-go. I will not consider anything that anyone has to say if they start by attacking my husband’s character and asserting that he is anything less than the generous, kind man that he is. (Same with premarital sex, btw. Hearing about how “used” I was by a man who had proven time and time again that he would do anything he could to ensure my health and happiness shut me off entirely).

The assertion that NFP makes a couple more communicative, happy, unified, etc assumes a lot about their relationship before NFP. My husband is every bit as involved with my birth control as he would be with NFP. He goes to every appointment, researches options with me, and keeps an eye on how I’m feeling and how the pill is affecting my body and cycles.

 

[sailor28]

No one judges those who use ABC. We are called to be a joyful witness of Church teaching. If this is not what what you experiencing - an apology may be needed. If so, consider it given, forgive, pray,seek, and you will find even more faith than you have now (which sounds like something to be envious of - but we should not covet!

Thanks for your note. It is not true that the judgement is not there. It is very much there. Fortunately, God is the one to whom I am accountable to. I don’t see a lot of joyful witnessing going on in the NFP arena. I am humbled by my own need for conversion and will continue to forgive, pray and seek.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I really try to see the good in everyone and everything.

I try not to take things the wrong way. I try not to take things personally, that aren’t meant personally.

But I cannot, as hard as I try, take this question in a positive light. I don’t know how it could be meant in any other way but personally.

When one person asks you that question you brush it off. When multiple people indicate the same feelings or statements, then you wonder about “the brigade of NFPers.”

But this is getting us totally off track.

I simply wanted to back those that say there is a definite divide among Catholics. I agree and I have experienced it.

I agree with you

 

[lovemysix]

“The better question is will turning to ABC or sterilization damage the marriage sacrament and its purpose? I do not think there would be much discussion on that. Yes, it would damage ability to convey Church teaching to others.”

I agree with you that it would be ridiculous for somebody like me, who failed at NFP, to run around preaching to the world about its glories. It is certainly not something I would attempt to do. But I am not an NFP-hater by any means–love the concept of it and would encourage others to give it a try.

If, however, we are talking about witnessing to the beauty and permanence of marriage and family to the world, that’s a different story. Evangelization generally only works if you have something other people want–joy, peace, loving relationships,etc. Otherwise, why are they going to bother looking into your religion in the first place?

And here is where I find many NFP couples I know in real life (I’ve lived in NFP circles since I was a very young child, nearly 4 decades at this point) fail utterly. They do not have the kind of marriage other people want. Now, I will grant you that most people in this world, whether they practice NFP or ABC, don’t have the kind of marriage other people want. And I would not venture to comment about anybody’s marriages here, as I know none of you in real life, and for all I know, everybody here is just as blissful and joyful in their marriages as can be. I can say, however, that that is not the experience of the NFP crowds I grew up with and went to college with. Decades into their marriages, most are living anything but what most people want in their marriages.

So yes, I would not try to teach anybody how to use NFP(given my inability to get the method down myself, I’d be a laughingtock, and rightfully so), although I think I can certainly still speak honestly to its being worthy of trying, even if it didn’t work out so well for us.

The joy of marriage and value of marriage, though, is something I try to convey to the world every day of my life. Some of the younger people I work with–who know firsthand how much my husband and I not only love each other, but genuinely like and respect each other–tell me how much hope our relationship gives them. Of course, I am a broken human being just like everybody else and don’t claim this is due to my own wonderfulness–rather, it is a gift from God, plain and simple.

Imperfect people and sinners can be witnesses to the beauty of the Church, too, even if they are not able to live up to every precept. Thank goodness this is the case, or we on earth would be in sorry shape. The only perfect people on this earth (Jesus and Mary) left it a long time ago, after all.

 

[7armyrugrats]

That’s exactly my point. People take things certain ways depending on their personal bias, the lens in which they view things. Therefore, the way a person takes something isn’t necessarily indicative of how the speaker intended it to be taken. It may “turn off” some people and for others it may help them see something in a different light. We don’t get to dictate how other people speak. Neither you, nor I, are able to accurately determine the best way for every single person to speak about NFP. There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t see another article or blog post about the way people view NFP. There isn’t a brigade. There are just a variety of opinions and people speaking out in different ways. This can’t be validly blamed for other people’s choice to reject truth.

I do not use ABC, and I never will. But I also do not see how NFP is the ideal either. It left a very bad taste in my mouth and I will NEVER go back to using it. I have seen too many threads about unplanned babies due to NFP failure and seen far too many distraught husbands and wives to think that NFP is anything besides birth control. If it is not birth control, babies wouldn’t be referred to as failures or mistakes or oops or whatever. People wouldn’t come on here asking, “my mucus appears fertile even though I shouldn’t be.Do you think I got pregnant last night? I’ll be furious!” If NFP was all about respect, than why do many instructors (mine included!) encourage us to have sex on safe days whether we want to or not, but then condemn the couple that uses ABC for making love. To me it makes no sense.

I believe and trust the Church’s teaching about marital love, but I know too often the people who are using NFP look for loop holes and expand their “just reasons” to stretch way beyond what is truly just. How is that different than the contracepting couple? Both are going against Church teaching, however the NFP brigade (yes, I too believe it exists) will defend the couples right to discern for themselves when and how to use NFP and the couple should not be judged. If that same couple switched to ABC when the situation becomes more serious, all of a sudden they are wrong, using each other, destrying their marriage, bad Catholics, sexually deviant, etc. People use NFP as the default instead of only utilizing NFP in serious situations. That too goes against church teachings.

And yes, the Vatican documents say grave and serious reasons. The catechism says just reasons. In all actuality, grave, serious and just can easily mean the same thing.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

You are confused. There are many things that are separate issues here. Legality is not the judge of sin. Many laws have nothing to do with sin and in many countries sometimes being christian or doing christian things would be against the law. Sometimes it could be a capitol offense.

But we are to judge. In fact we are not even to judge for ourselves if we should go to confession the Church teaches that you MUST go to confession at least once a year. So, someone judged that all need to go to confession. Not only that but one of the spiritual works of mercy is “admonish the sinner” You can read about that here,
newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

How does one admonish a sinner? How are we to perform this work if we cannot judge something?

Is the Church asking the impossible? Is She asking you to be merciful when the Bible says do not judge?

And if you put the Logic into theoLOGIC discussions that involve the mantra “judge not” You must take that further.

So if a society lets children be sexually abused and it is not against the law? Are you ready to make the argument that we are not to judge? That we should not act to protect children?

Or in our own society. Should we be pro choice because it is only up to God to judge an action?

Judge not, except by the standard that YOU will be judged. It is not against “judging” at all but rather a protection and warning against hypocrisy. By what I judge, is the standard I will be judged, by what I forgive, I will be forgiven. So, if I am stealing money from a retirement fund from the company I work for, but sit in judgement of a common bank robber, I should not be hypocritical.

The fact of the matter is that we are called to judge. And we are called to help. And we are called to fight injustice. Be it child murder, or ABC. Sin is sin.

IF you truly believe that Jesus meant to not judge in the way you believe, then why adhere to ANY rules of the faith? Why ask anyone to do any of it? Why would you believe those words in that way but not other words given by the same Holy spirit? About ABC, Homosexual marriage, abortion.

I am sure you do judge. I am sure you judge other Catholics. I am sure you even judge those who counsel others to repent and sin no more. Who was that who said that? John the Baptist. Was he overstepping his bounds by judging others to be in sin?

Only God can judge the SOUL of someone, but anyone can judge an action. And God actually commands that you do!

Also noted is this verse\ 1Cor 11:29

Now, why is it that the Judge not crowd have such a hard time with other verses? If only they defended the Bible and the Church as much as they defend their own pride by using one verse, without understanding it, out of context.

Why would anyone want to be a member of a religion that did not have objective Truth and black and white matters of morals?

No not confused…just have a different view point. I didn’t say judging & legality was connected…you mentioned murder, rape etc which have a legal side. In fact my post shows the two are separate…discipline & correction vs judging.

“So someone judged that all need to go to confession” his name was Jesus ie a God…are you sure your catholic? It’s you guys that say the church is His church and teach his teachings so why wouldn’t you know it’s him that say all need to go to confession…I said only God can judge.

 

[Rau]

And here is where I find many NFP couples I know in real life (I’ve lived in NFP circles since I was a very young child, nearly 4 decades at this point) fail utterly. They do not have the kind of marriage other people want. Now, I will grant you that most people in this world, whether they practice NFP or ABC, don’t have the kind of marriage other people want. And I would not venture to comment about anybody’s marriages here, as I know none of you in real life, and for all I know, everybody here is just as blissful and joyful in their marriages as can be. I can say, however, that that is not the experience of the NFP crowds I grew up with and went to college with. Decades into their marriages, most are living anything but what most people want in their marriages.

Why is that? And to what extent can it be attributed to NFP? What kind of marriage do “other people want”, and how does NFP prevent achieving it?

 

[CarrieSpooner]

I do not use ABC, and I never will. But I also do not see how NFP is the ideal either. It left a very bad taste in my mouth and I will NEVER go back to using it. I have seen too many threads about unplanned babies due to NFP failure and seen far too many distraught husbands and wives to think that NFP is anything besides birth control. If it is not birth control, babies wouldn’t be referred to as failures or mistakes or oops or whatever. People wouldn’t come on here asking, “my mucus appears fertile even though I shouldn’t be.Do you think I got pregnant last night? I’ll be furious!” If NFP was all about respect, than why do many instructors (mine included!) encourage us to have sex on safe days whether we want to or not, but then condemn the couple that uses ABC for making love. To me it makes no sense.

I believe and trust the Church’s teaching about marital love, but I know too often the people who are using NFP look for loop holes and expand their “just reasons” to stretch way beyond what is truly just. How is that different than the contracepting couple? Both are going against Church teaching, however the NFP brigade (yes, I too believe it exists) will defend the couples right to discern for themselves when and how to use NFP and the couple should not be judged. If that same couple switched to ABC when the situation becomes more serious, all of a sudden they are wrong, using each other, destrying their marriage, bad Catholics, sexually deviant, etc. People use NFP as the default instead of only utilizing NFP in serious situations. That too goes against church teachings.

And yes, the Vatican documents say grave and serious reasons. The catechism says just reasons. In all actuality, grave, serious and just can easily mean the same thing.

I’m trying to see how any of this relates to what you quoted from me. It’s also hard to take anyone seriously who tries to defend a belief in a made up term that just surfaced today. Let’s define our terms. Who are the members of the Catholic NFP brigade? Who is the leader? Do they have a website? What is their mission statement. I’m assuming you won’t be able to answer any of these questions. Did Joe Blow with xyz website say something you don’t like? Did jane doe poster here offend you with her statements on NFP? OK…that does not make an NFP brigade. I don’t believe it’s coming to this but:

bri·gade
briˈgād/
Full Definition of BRIGADE

1
a : a large body of troops
b : a tactical and administrative unit composed of a headquarters, one or more units of infantry or armor, and supporting units
2
: a group of people organized for special activity

^Sorry folks but there is no such thing as a Catholic NFP brigade. There is no organized movement to sell you NFP in an unpleasing way. Humans are flawed. NFP instructors are not perfect, they are human.

I hear people complain that NFP is portrayed as too rainbows and butterflies. I hear people complain that NFP is portrayed as too hard. I hear people complain that NFP is portrayed as holy. I hear people complain that NFP is portrayed as immoral. As a person with no dog in the fight, what I see is a lot of people who want to control the way NFP is portrayed. There is no brigade so there is no organization. People portray NFP the way that they view it. That’s the bottom line. Portray it the way you want but you can’t control other people. If there truly was a brigade, you could complain to them. But there isn’t so instead I see shaking of fists at an imaginary group. If someone said something displeasing to you, let them know how it made you feel. It’s no reason to justify immoral behavior. It’s not “the problem”.