ABC, NFP, and human vs. God

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Hoosier_Daddy said:
Why does the fact that someone has ten kids bring down the reliability in your mind of NFP?
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Math.

Go back to the first example that I gave. It would be hard to NOT have more than eight complete pregnancies in 9.5 years if you tried. The birth rate here looks very similar to what if would have been if they had left it to chance (which is what I am saying they really did).
 
robertmidwest said:
Math.

Go back to the first example that I gave. It would be hard to NOT have more than eight complete pregnancies in 9.5 years if you tried. The birth rate here looks very similar to leaving what if would have been if they had left it to chance (which is what I am saying they really did).
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These people in question, do you know how often they had sex?
 
Elizium23 said:
These people in question, do you know how often they had sex?
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I don’t need to know how many times they had sex. If they had sex once per day for 9.5 years it would be difficult to have more than 8 pregnancies. If they had had sex four times a day for 9.5 years they would’t have more than 8 pregnancies.

I hope they had sex at least eight times or there are other issues going on.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Those who use NFP for grave medical reasons have an incredible rate of success. I would trust conservative NFP if my wife’s life was in danger way more than a thin piece of latex. Perhaps you should look into NFP from credible sources and leave FB out of it…
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on_the_hill said:
Can one assume that it’s being used to prevent pregnancy if it’s used for grave medical reasons?

In other words, a couple could say, ‘A pregnancy will present a grave medical problem, so we will use NFP to avoid that problem. However, we will accept God’s will.’

In that case, would the couple be not culpable because they’re using NFP instead of ABC?
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Hoosier_Daddy said:
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Can you clarify?
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Yes. You mentioned that NFP has an incredible success rate for those who use it for grave medical reasons. Suppose two woman would be at grave medical risk if they became pregnant. Couple A uses NFP to avoid pregnancy and the grave medical risk. Couple B uses a condom.

Both avoid pregnancy. Couple B is morally culpable, or sinned, or whatever the applicable terminology is, because they used a man-made device that precluded the marital act from being both uniative and open to life.

Couple A is not morally culpable, did not sin, because although NFP may be a valid form of ‘family planning,’ the marital act has not been disrupted by a man-made device and the couple is, presumably, open to life.
 
on_the_hill said:
Yes. You mentioned that NFP has an incredible success rate for those who use it for grave medical reasons. Suppose two woman would be at grave medical risk if they became pregnant. Couple A uses NFP to avoid pregnancy and the grave medical risk. Couple B uses a condom.

Both avoid pregnancy. Couple B is morally culpable, or sinned, or whatever the applicable terminology is, because they used a man-made device that precluded the marital act from being both uniative and open to life.

Couple A is not morally culpable, did not sin, because although NFP may be a valid form of ‘family planning,’ the marital act has not been disrupted by a man-made device and the couple is, presumably, open to life.
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Couple b sinned not because they are trying to avoid pregnancy for just reasons, but rather because of the means used to achieve it. Couple A has no sin.
 
robertmidwest said:
I don’t need to know how many times they had sex. If they had sex once per day for 9.5 years it would be difficult to have more than 8 pregnancies. If they had had sex four times a day for 9.5 years they would’t have more than 8 pregnancies.
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So what you are saying is that since you don’t know for a fact that they were using NFP to avoid pregnancy (you don’t even know that they were using NFP at all, just that they were “huge advocates” of it) and the only other observation you have shared with us is their birth rate, aren’t you going to at least admit as a possibility that they were using NFP to achieve pregnancy and it was highly effective toward that goal?
 
robertmidwest said:
I don’t need to know how many times they had sex. If they had sex once per day for 9.5 years it would be difficult to have more than 8 pregnancies. If they had had sex four times a day for 9.5 years they would’t have more than 8 pregnancies.

I hope they had sex at least eight times or there are other issues going on.
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Sounds like the NFP was better than other options. Sounds like the "planned, naturally thier family…

Why do you think they were trying to avoid during that time? How many kids do you think are Ooooops babies? Have you asked them?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Sounds like they are using NFP to try to conceive. My wife and I have done this as well.
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Eight kids in 9.5 years? Seriously? Really, think about it. Nobody plans that on purpose.

I think the “we planned a big family” is a lot more of cop out answer.
 
robertmidwest said:
Eight kids in 9.5 years? Seriously? Really, think about it. Nobody plans that on purpose.

I think the “we planned a big family” is a lot more of cop out answer.
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not only would I “plan” that, we have many friends who do that. You seem to have a very cynical view of NFP, and children in general. May I ask what you think the way to avoid pregnancy in a marriage is if not NFP?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
You seem to have a very cynical view of NFP, and children in general.
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Correct I do not believe in NFP at all.

Incorrect I do not have a cynical view of kids. My wife and I have 3 of them. All were C-Section births. Going back to grade school when we discussed vocations I knew back then that priesthood was not my calling. I wanted to have a family.
 
robertmidwest said:
Eight kids in 9.5 years? Seriously? Really, think about it. Nobody plans that on purpose.

I think the “we planned a big family” is a lot more of cop out answer.
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So basically, you’re going to ignore all the actual studies about the success rates of different types of NFP because you can’t imagine that someone might have a different attitude to kids than you do. :rolleyes:
 
I don’t know the article or author spoken of that had 8 kids in 9.5 years, but I can assure you that many people do plan to have kids like that. My parents did. My grandparents did. I would have loved to but my husband is gone too much for that to of happened. I would have had 10 in 15 years if my second set of twins had made it. I would love to have another within the next two years, but that’s not looking likely. My cousin that is younger than me (she’s 25) just had her 6th baby in 5 years–none are twins in her family. All were very much planned and wanted. My aunt and uncle had 8 in 6.5 years, also no twins, and then try as hard as they could for another one but God didn’t have it in His plans for them. She was so happy for my mom but also quite jealous that mom and dad were having babies with no trouble well past 45. NFP can be quite effective birth control as well. My sister in law has only had two babies, very well spaced and perfectly planned exactly when she wanted them, same with a few of my sisters. NFP doesn’t work for everyone, myself included, but for a large percentage of people it does. It’s not fair to judge a large family in the way you are doing. I understand that you would not like to have that many kids are kids that close in age, but to say that no one wants that is just wrong. Many of us realize that God is the author of our lives and therefore we opt to place in His hands the spacing and amount of children we have instead of actively seeking to have or avoid having children. It is possible to not be trying or not trying and just allowing God to decide for us. It is that way in each and every area of our lives. It’s ok to allow God to just work through us and to work on aligning our will to His. I’m sorry your wife has had 3 c-sections. My cousin, the one with 6 kids, her first, third, fifth and sixth were c-sections. A woman I go to church with has had all 7 of her children by c-section as well. One of my sisters had three c-sections out of four kids. She wasn’t able to have another after her third c-section and has successfully used NFP to avoid for the last 19 years. It is quite common for that to happen. When serious reasons develop, NFP is an alternative to abstinence that the Church has allowed us to use.
 
robertmidwest said:
Correct I do not believe in NFP at all.

Incorrect I do not have a cynical view of kids. My wife and I have 3 of them. All were C-Section births. Going back to grade school when we discussed vocations I knew back then that priesthood was not my calling. I wanted to have a family.
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Perhaps not YOUR kids but you already poo pooed the idea of having 8 or 9 kids for any sane person…

So if you do not believe in NFP and you have 3 children do you and your wife abstain for the remainder of her fertile years?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Perhaps not YOUR kids but you already poo pooed the idea of having 8 or 9 kids for any sane person…

So if you do not believe in NFP and you have 3 children do you and your wife abstain for the remainder of her fertile years?
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No we use ABC.
 
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