Abel and Cain were...twins?

[Ahimsa]

Since Eve had the same genetic profile as Adam (since she came from Adam’s rib), and since Eve and Adam had kids, then those kids would all be genetically identical. Thus, Cain and Abel were identical twins.

Discuss.

 

[twinc]

Since Eve had the same genetic profile as Adam (since she came from Adam’s rib), and since Eve and Adam had kids, then those kids would all be genetically identical. Thus, Cain and Abel were identical twins.

Discuss.

possible - no reason why not - so also Jesus could not have had any brothers and sisters even if Mary had other children - twinc

 

[Benedict_777]

You make a good point Ahimsa! Oh, and you do to twinc!

 

[Nita]

Since Eve had the same genetic profile as Adam (since she came from Adam’s rib), and since Eve and Adam had kids, then those kids would all be genetically identical. Thus, Cain and Abel were identical twins.

Discuss.

No. I’m not a biologist, but here’s the way I understand it.

Their are 23 pairs of chromosomes in each cell of the human body EXCEPT the reproductive gametes (sperm/ovum). They have only half the number. (11 pairs and an X or Y). The particular 11 pair - chosen from the 23 pair - varies from one gamete to the next. In other words, the 11 pair and Y chromosomes present in the sperm when Cain was conceived were very probably not the same as those in the sperm when Able was conceived. And likewise with the ova.

Same principle applies to siblings today; that’s why children from the same parents are not all identical.

 

[Apollos]

Since Eve had the same genetic profile as Adam (since she came from Adam’s rib)

Hold it right there - had Eve merely been built up from somatic cells, she would have been XY, not XX, unless God did some fancy fiddling with the bone marrow stem cells to make her XX. If so, then Cain and Abel, being male, would have inherited Adam’s Y and Eve’s X, and the shuffle begins.

 

[Ahimsa]

Hold it right there - had Eve merely been built up from somatic cells, she would have been XY, not XX, unless God did some fancy fiddling with the bone marrow stem cells to make her XX. If so, then Cain and Abel, being male, would have inherited Adam’s Y and Eve’s X, and the shuffle begins.

If Adam, being male, had XY chromosomes, then Eve’s XX probably resulted from a duplication of Adam’s X.

If so, then both Cain and Abel’s XY would have been identical to Adam’s XY (since the X came from Eve, and her X was simply a duplicate of Adam’s X).

 

[Ahimsa]

No. I’m not a biologist, but here’s the way I understand it.

Their are 23 pairs of chromosomes in each cell of the human body EXCEPT the reproductive gametes (sperm/ovum). They have only half the number. (11 pairs and an X or Y). The particular 11 pair - chosen from the 23 pair - varies from one gamete to the next. In other words, the 11 pair and Y chromosomes present in the sperm when Cain was conceived were very probably not the same as those in the sperm when Able was conceived. And likewise with the ova.

Same principle applies to siblings today; that’s why children from the same parents are not all identical.

Siblings of today’s parents are usually not identical because of the whole mutation thing. The two copies of, say, chromosome #1 of parent A might have mutation X of Gene 298 on one chromosome and mutation Y of Gene 298 on the other. And let’s say mutation X of 298 leads to a 2% decrease in life-span, and mutation Y causes 4% decrease.

If God made Adam, then one might suppose that God made Adam’s two copies, of, say, chromosome #1 with both copies having mutation Z of Gene 298, which causes no decrease in life-span. Eve’s chromosomes, then, would be an exact copy of Adam; and Eve’s two X chromosomes would be duplicates of Adam’s X chromosome. Thus, the mating of Adam and Eve (unlike the mating of, say, Mel Gibson and his girlfriend) would not involve multiple mutations.

 

[Apollos]

If Adam, being male, had XY chromosomes, then Eve’s XX probably resulted from a duplication of Adam’s X. If so, then both Cain and Abel’s XY would have been identical to Adam’s XY (since the X came from Eve, and her X was simply a duplicate of Adam’s X).

Right, but not if the chromatids in Adam’s chromosomes were somehow nonidentical and got switched around to make Eve’s Xs. Because, if we label the chromatids of his X chromosome as Ia and Ib, and those of his Y as Ic and i (the short chromatid), then the chromatid choices for Eve’s two X chromosomes could be Ia+Ic for the first X and Ib+Ic for the second X; Cain could inherit an X chomosome made from Ia+Ic while Abel could inherit one made from Ib+Ic, and so they would be genetically distinct not only from Adam but also from each other, even if all three shared identical Y chromosomes.

I admit it’s a contrived scenario, but … a parthenogenetic origin for an XY male would be even harder to conceive.

 

[Apollos]

Siblings of today’s parents are usually not identical because of the whole mutation thing.

From what I’ve heard, it’s because of chromosomal crossover and the random shuffling of chromatids during meiosis, rather than mutation per se.

Thus, the mating of Adam and Eve (unlike the mating of, say, Mel Gibson and his girlfriend) would not involve multiple mutations.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation for the lack of problems associated with incest, but doesn’t it imply that Cain and Abel would be genetically identical not only with each other but also with Adam?

 

[Nita]

Right, but not if the chromatids in Adam’s chromosomes were somehow nonidentical and got switched around to make Eve’s Xs. Because, if we label the chromatids of his X chromosome as Ia and Ib, and those of his Y as Ic and i (the short chromatid), then the chromatid choices for Eve’s two X chromosomes could be Ia+Ic for the first X and Ib+Ic for the second X; Cain could inherit an X chomosome made from Ia+Ic while Abel could inherit one made from Ib+Ic, and so they would be genetically distinct not only from Adam but also from each other, even if all three shared identical Y chromosomes.

I admit it’s a contrived scenario, but … a parthenogenetic origin for an XY male would be even harder to conceive.

And that’s just on the 2 chromosomes that determine the sex. There are 44 more chromosomes involved - 22 from each parent.
Am I correct in understanding that the particular 22 chromosomes chosen from the father’s 44, differ from one sperm to the next?
In other words, the other 22 chromosomes are not identical in each sperm produced in a particular man (and that the other 22 in a woman’s ova also differ).

My question is in reference to Cain and Abel - conception in the normal way. (Not to Eve.)

 

[puzzleannie]

possible - no reason why not - so also Jesus could not have had any brothers and sisters even if Mary had other children - twinc

which has nothing whatever to do with this question.

the Adam’s rib story is a poetic way of describing the creation of the first man and woman out of nothing. The bible states they had other children and went forth and multiplied, and these children in turn married and had other children which is all we need to be concerned about.

 

[Nita]

If God made Adam, then one might suppose that God made Adam’s two copies, of, say, chromosome #1 with both copies having mutation Z of Gene 298, which causes no decrease in life-span. Eve’s chromosomes, then, would be an exact copy of Adam; and Eve’s two X chromosomes would be duplicates of Adam’s X chromosome. .

Why should one assume that the two copies of the various chromosomes would have to have been identical at the beginning. With God’s creativity, knowledge, power…, I would imagine that He designed those first two bodies right from the start with a mechanism in place to produce variety.
He certainly did with the rest of creation.

 

[grannymh]

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Entering topics, like Adam, is also very useful.

When you enter a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then click on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 you will see the following under the paragraph:

»
»
»
»

 

[Ahimsa]

Why should one assume that the two copies of the various chromosomes would have to have been identical at the beginning. With God’s creativity, knowledge, power…, I would imagine that He designed those first two bodies right from the start with a mechanism in place to produce variety.
He certainly did with the rest of creation.

True, the two copies could have had different mutations of the same genes. That is certainly possible!

 

[Ahimsa]

From what I’ve heard, it’s because of chromosomal crossover and the random shuffling of chromatids during meiosis, rather than mutation per se.

It might have been the case that, as a result of the Fall, chromosomal crossover was initiated.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation for the lack of problems associated with incest, but doesn’t it imply that Cain and Abel would be genetically identical not only with each other but also with Adam?

Yes, Adam, Cain, and Abel would all be identical twins.

 

[LilyM]

A God who was powerful enough to create Adam from nothing would appear not to be bound by the laws of biology. Why then would we assume that He must’ve been bound by the laws of genetics in His creation of Eve?

 

[vera_dicere]

They could have been identical twins if they were born at teh same time.

However, what if Adam, for example, was black hair hetrozygous dominant? So he would have outward black hair but could carry the gene for blond hair. And eve, being from Adam’s DNA if we want to go down that path, could be the same hetrozygous dominant for black hair, or perhaps homozygous recessive for blond hair.

So, they Cain and Abel could have gotten different segements. For example, two black haired people can have a blond hair child, a red head, or even an albino, but they will have a 50% chance of having another black haired child. But two blond haired parents can’t have a black haired child.

And that’s about the extent of my genetic understanding.

 

[PeterK]

Since Eve had the same genetic profile as Adam (since she came from Adam’s rib), and since Eve and Adam had kids, then those kids would all be genetically identical. Thus, Cain and Abel were identical** twins**.

No.
Genetics is not the sole criteria for determining ‘twin-ship’ if it is any criteria at all in the matter. Two embryos must conceive, develop and come to term in one womb together during one pregnancy; that is the criteria. Twins may or may not be identical, there are un-identical twins, but they are still twins if they were both carried to term through one pregnancy in the same womb. The scripture clearly determines two separate pregnancies for Cain and Abel. So, while you may contend the two separately born individuals may have looked and even been genetically identical, they were not twins.
Esau and Jacob were twins and evidently were not identical.

This just must be the age of disregarding commonly held definitions of realities of life; cross reference ‘marriage’.

Sheesh.

PeterK