Ability to sin....Age of reason question and mortal sin

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We are taught that a child cannot sin before the age of reason, (about seven or eight years old) But does that “age of reason” automatically mean they can knowingly reject God?

Do you think that there is a period of time that a child is capable of committing venial sin but incapable of committing a mortal sin?

If so, how long would you say that is.
For instance - a seven year old knows it’s wrong to steal. Can a seven year old, raised in teh faith, grasp the concept denying God - the concpet of "grave matter - the concept of “full knowledge and consent”? How about a 10 year old or a 12 year old or a 15 year old?

At what point does is a child capable of this level of theological reason - I can’t think it is at the age of seven or eight (at least not for the majority of kids.)

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
We are taught that a child cannot sin before the age of reason, (about seven or eight years old) But does that “age of reason” automatically mean they can knowingly reject God?

Do you think that there is a period of time that a child is capable of committing venial sin but incapable of committing a mortal sin?

If so, how long would you say that is.
For instance - a seven year old knows it’s wrong to steal. Can a seven year old, raised in teh faith, grasp the concept denying God - the concpet of "grave matter - the concept of “full knowledge and consent”? How about a 10 year old or a 12 year old or a 15 year old?

At what point does is a child capable of this level of theological reason - I can’t think it is at the age of seven or eight (at least not for the majority of kids.)

Peace
James
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When a child is able to understand the difference between right and wrong (age of reason), they are able to commit both mortal and venial sin.
 
I would certainly believe a 2 year old could commit a venial sin. For in the terrible twos the will of children is becoming active and they are intentionally being disobedient. Not a mortal sin for they do not understand much that is required to commit mortal sins.
 
Evan said:
I would certainly believe a 2 year old could commit a venial sin. For in the terrible twos the will of children is becoming active and they are intentionally being disobedient. Not a mortal sin for they do not understand much that is required to commit mortal sins.
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“Age of Reason” - “about seven” They have the ability to “reason” things out. A 2 yo does not reason things out they test things
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
When a child is able to understand the difference between right and wrong (age of reason), they are able to commit both mortal and venial sin.
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The three requirements for mortal sin: (CCC 1857)
Grave matter
Full knowledge
Deliberate consent

I think you’ll agree that understanding the difference between right and wrong is not an instantanious thing. That it is something a child grows into with guidance from those around them.
So there must be a period of time where a Child can recognize that things are “right or wrong” but not yet be able to meet the three requirements for mortal sin.

Do you think that a child of seven or eight has the same understanding of “Grave matter” as a teenager or an adult?

Peace
James
 
Of course, not. But a full understanding of theology is not necessary to understanding that some offenses are more serious than others and that one should not do those things.

A seven year old most certainly can understand that there is a difference between taking someone’s candy without asking and beating someone to a bloody pulp. They are able to understand that both are wrong, and if they understand both these things and freely choose to commit such an act anyway, they have given consent of the will. They are therefore able to commit both venial and mortal sin. Now there may be areas said seven year old does not have the same level of knowledge and understanding about at the same time. In those cases, the child may still sin seriously, but not yet realize the gravity of his actions. Such would obviously NOT be mortal sin.
 
JRKH said:
The three requirements for mortal sin: (CCC 1857)
Grave matter
Full knowledge
Deliberate consent

I think you’ll agree that understanding the difference between right and wrong is not an instantanious thing. That it is something a child grows into with guidance from those around them.
So there must be a period of time where a Child can recognize that things are “right or wrong” but not yet be able to meet the three requirements for mortal sin.

Do you think that a child of seven or eight has the same understanding of “Grave matter” as a teenager or an adult?

Peace
James
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It is during this time that a child should be taught about regular monthly Confession and daily examination of conscious. It is quite possible that for the first year or two a childs regular monthly celebration of the Sacrament of Reconciliation while the habit is encouraged and develops that they only confess venial sins. Nothing wrong with that, however this is the time when they learn disobeying a parent is a “serious” matter, against the Ten Commandments and that when they know this and freely choose to act contrary to the Commandmants they could be committing Mortal sin. Every priest has heard “I disobeyed my mom” or “dad” many times in Confession or used too.
 
JRKH said:
We are taught that a child cannot sin before the age of reason, (about seven or eight years old) But does that “age of reason” automatically mean they can knowingly reject God?

Do you think that there is a period of time that a child is capable of committing venial sin but incapable of committing a mortal sin?

I
Peace
James
Click to expand...
probably but it depends on the child. just watch the news to see evidence of very young children committing capital crimes. Whether or not those individual children understand the gravity of what they have done, and whether or not they had full intent, knowledge and free will consent, depends on the circumstances, and on the child’s development. Age of reason means that is probably the youngest age at which the ability to distinguish right from wrong, to learn and obey rules, to weigh and understand the future consequences of an action, to understand the concept that our actions hurt others, to have compassion and contrition, are discernable in the child’s thought processes, responses and actions. It does not mean all children automatically have this intellectual and psychological capacity at their 7th birthdays.

a toddler understands “no” and that he can push his parents buttons by his actions, but he does not yet have the intellectual capacity to understand future consequences for present actions, or that his actions can do real harm. Nor does he reason well enough to understand abstract values like love, altruism, coveting, envy and honesty. Piaget is still the best one to explain the stages of a child’s development where the spiritual meets the psychological, IMO.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
It is during this time that a child should be taught about regular monthly Confession and daily examination of conscious. It is quite possible that for the first year or two a childs regular monthly celebration of the Sacrament of Reconciliation while the habit is encouraged and develops that they only confess venial sins. Nothing wrong with that, however this is the time when they learn disobeying a parent is a “serious” matter, against the Ten Commandments and that when they know this and freely choose to act contrary to the Commandmants they could be committing Mortal sin. Every priest has heard “I disobeyed my mom” or “dad” many times in Confession or used too.
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This sounds better. That there is a “learning curve”, that could last a year or two during which the child grasps “right from wrong”. However there also needs to be a period of guidance to be able to fully understand things like gravity of an action, without which they cannot truly give “full consent of the will”. Without full and knowledge and consent of the will, no Mortal sin.

Peace
James
 
puzzleannie said:
probably but it depends on the child. just watch the news to see evidence of very young children committing capital crimes. Whether or not those individual children understand the gravity of what they have done, and whether or not they had full intent, knowledge and free will consent, depends on the circumstances, and on the child’s development. Age of reason means that is probably the youngest age at which the ability to distinguish right from wrong, to learn and obey rules, to weigh and understand the future consequences of an action, to understand the concept that our actions hurt others, to have compassion and contrition, are discernable in the child’s thought processes, responses and actions. It does not mean all children automatically have this intellectual and psychological capacity at their 7th birthdays.

a toddler understands “no” and that he can push his parents buttons by his actions, but he does not yet have the intellectual capacity to understand future consequences for present actions, or that his actions can do real harm. Nor does he reason well enough to understand abstract values like love, altruism, coveting, envy and honesty. Piaget is still the best one to explain the stages of a child’s development where the spiritual meets the psychological, IMO.
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Annie -
Of course this is a very individualized thing. Every child matures at his/her own pace.

As to very young children committing capital crimes, I wonder how many of those come from good, stable, practicing Catholic families. My suspicion is very few, and so there are many different factors at play in these things.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Annie -
Of course this is a very individualized thing. Every child matures at his/her own pace.

As to very young children committing capital crimes, I wonder how many of those come from good, stable, practicing Catholic families. My suspicion is very few, and so there are many different factors at play in these things.

Peace
James
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well we had a 6 yr old from a stable solid Catholic family in this community shoot his younger sister a couple of years ago, and there still seems no clear consensus on whether or not he acted maliciously or knows what he did. we also had the 4 yr old granddaughter of a parishioner, who had been in CCD in the neighboring parish, conspire with a boyfriend to kill the old lady for money. Generalized assumptions can always be wrong.
 
puzzleannie said:
well we had a 6 yr old from a stable solid Catholic family in this community shoot his younger sister a couple of years ago, and there still seems no clear consensus on whether or not he acted maliciously or knows what he did. we also had the 4 yr old granddaughter of a parishioner, who had been in CCD in the neighboring parish, conspire with a boyfriend to kill the old lady for money. Generalized assumptions can always be wrong.
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A four year old with a boyfriend??:confused:

Peace
James
 
Evan said:
I would certainly believe a 2 year old could commit a venial sin. For in the terrible twos the will of children is becoming active and they are intentionally being disobedient. Not a mortal sin for they do not understand much that is required to commit mortal sins.
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A dog can also be willfully disobedient, but it cannot sin. The two things don’t go together - the sinner must recognize an objective moral order, and a two-year old does not.
 
As children grow up, they gradually begin to understand right from wrong.

At first, they cannot commit personal sin because they cannot know right from wrong at all. So a Baptised infant has no original sin and no personal sin.

As the ability to reason gradually dawns in the child’s mind, he or she becomes capable of understanding right and wrong to a limited extent, and so becomes capable of venial sin, but not actual mortal sin. The full knowledge of the grave immorality of an act is beyond the understanding of a young child.

Then at some point, not at any particular age, the child becomes capable of understading right and wrong to a sufficiently full extent to be capable of committing an actual mortal sin. It is not clear at what age this occurs. It is probably sooner for one child, and later for another child.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
“Age of Reason” - “about seven” They have the ability to “reason” things out. A 2 yo does not reason things out they test things
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Not some of the 2yo’s I’ve known. Checking to see if they are watched. Deciding what to do based on that.
 
JRKH said:
Annie -
Of course this is a very individualized thing. Every child matures at his/her own pace.

As to very young children committing capital crimes, I wonder how many of those come from good, stable, practicing Catholic families. My suspicion is very few, and so there are many different factors at play in these things.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
I would bet that most are unbaptized young people, who satan has easy control over because that have no Grace in their soul.
 
Evan said:
Not some of the 2yo’s I’ve known. Checking to see if they are watched. Deciding what to do based on that.
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THis is still not evidence that there is sin. In fact, that is exactally testing. “What happens if I do thing X? Will mommy be upset? Will she be upset every time? What if I do it when she isn’t there?”

If I go out of the room and leave food on the table, my dog will try to pull it off. He waits until I am gone because he knows I will stop him and yell. If I catch him in the act, he makes signs of doggy submission, because he knows that he is in trouble - he will be scolded and sent to his bed.

Do you think he sinned? Of course not. THis is called operant conditioning - he is responding to what the effects of his actions have been in the past. He has no idea that there is any moral component to stealing, or even to obeying me - he just knows that undesirable things happen when he doesn’t.

Neither dogs or two-year olds have any awareness that there is an abstract, objective, right and wrong. That is what is required for sin.
 
JRKH said:
A four year old with a boyfriend??:confused:

Peace
James
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sorry, thanks for proofreading (again) a 14 yr old with a 21 yr old boyfriend who looks like he will get of scot free, not only for murder but for statuatory rape as well.
 
Evan said:
Not some of the 2yo’s I’ve known. Checking to see if they are watched. Deciding what to do based on that.
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oh yeah, but they still are not capable of reasoning from “thou shalt not steal” to “thou shalt share” and “if you touch the dirt in those plants again you are big trouble” but they heartily enjoy the satisfaction of seeing mom get mad again and putting on a show
 
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