Abode of the dead

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brendan55

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Greetings. I am looking for the Catholic response to the EO’s (at least of the Western Rite Antiochian type) claim that the souls of the blessed are not yet in heaven and will only be so once united with their bodies. I’ve read a bit on this and the early Fathers certainly do seem to overwhelmingly support this view. I know that the Catholic understanding was defined in the Middle Ages but am looking for the reasoning behind the decision. Any help? No EO’s please. I am not looking to debate, just a Catholic response. Thank you.
 
brendan55 said:
Greetings. I am looking for the Catholic response to the EO’s (at least of the Western Rite Antiochian type) claim that the souls of the blessed are not yet in heaven and will only be so once united with their bodies. I’ve read a bit on this and the early Fathers certainly do seem to overwhelmingly support this view. I know that the Catholic understanding was defined in the Middle Ages but am looking for the reasoning behind the decision. Any help? No EO’s please. I am not looking to debate, just a Catholic response. Thank you.
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I know you said “No EO’s please” but I couldn’t resist (don’t worry I don’t want to debate either). First off, western rite Orthodox and eastern rite Orthodox have the exact same beliefs and the exact same views on their beliefs. The only difference in the “eastern” and “western” rites of Orthodoxy is in their small “t” traditions (which includes the way they celebrate the liturgy). In Catholicism, correct me if I’m wrong, eastern and western rite Catholics have the exact same beliefs, but different views/emphasis on their beliefs (like purgatory and the final theosis). So the views/emphasis of this topic in western rite Orthodoxy should be the same in all of Orthodoxy.

Secondly, from what I have been led to believe, Orthodoxy teaches that after death we can go to heaven, but that it’s not our final destination place. Once our souls are re-united to our bodies, then we are at our final destination. I am basing this off of my memory so I may be wrong but like I said above, “this is what I have been led to believe”. I have also heard Orthodox talk about Heaven and Hell more of as a state-of-being rather than as a place, so there may be some confusion from this. But unlike you, I haven’t read that much about this and I haven’t read the father’s teachings on this so I may be wrong. Hopefully someone else knows more about this subject than I do.
 
brendan55 said:
Greetings. I am looking for the Catholic response to the EO’s (at least of the Western Rite Antiochian type) claim that the souls of the blessed are not yet in heaven and will only be so once united with their bodies. I’ve read a bit on this and the early Fathers certainly do seem to overwhelmingly support this view. I know that the Catholic understanding was defined in the Middle Ages but am looking for the reasoning behind the decision. Any help? No EO’s please. I am not looking to debate, just a Catholic response. Thank you.
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The Catholic view is pretty much the same, we just use different wording to express it. The souls of the blessed are in heaven (meaning, they are in the state of salvation…whether or not there is a corresponding place is pretty much irrelevant). While they do currently experience joy and peace, their reward will not be complete until after the resurrection of the body, when their happiness will manifest both spiritually and physically. Similarly, the damned are suffering, but will not experience the fullness of this suffering until they are returned to their bodies, when their punishments will afflict both body and soul. The phase before the resurrection of the body can thus be reconciled with the Orthodox concept of an “intermediate state”.

The Orthodox also state that there are those souls in the afterlife who, while currently suffering among the damned, can be freed from their suffering and saved by the prayers and offerings of the faithful on Earth. This can be an acceptable interpretation of the Catholic purgatory, since the doctrine is extremely vaguely defined. The only difference as far as I can tell is that in the Orthodox interpretation the suffering souls do not know that they will be saved, whereas in the Catholic teaching they are aware of their status. Note, however, that in the Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem Patriarch Dositheus expressed a very literal fire and brimstone view of purgatory of which even some traditional Catholics would be proud.
 
As brother Fuerza stated, there is really no difference between East, West and Orient as far as the universal Sacred Tradition of the Church. In the Catholic Church, we find unity in the dogmatic definition of Purgatory - that there is (1) a state that is not heaven or hell where souls experience purification (or further perfection or theosis) after death, and (2) that the prayers and suffrages of the living, especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is efficacious to aid the souls in that state.

Those not in the Catholic Church use different wording, but the Faith is essentially the same.

The difference comes in when people mistake particularly Latin theologoumena on this state after death as the universal teaching of the Church. This goes for both Catholics and non-Catholics, and when both Catholics and non-Catholics make that error, both groups pretend to claim that such a misinterpretation is sufficient cause for disunity on the matter.

Blessings
 
brendan55 said:
Greetings. I am looking for the Catholic response to the EO’s (at least of the Western Rite Antiochian type) claim that the souls of the blessed are not yet in heaven and will only be so once united with their bodies. I’ve read a bit on this and the early Fathers certainly do seem to overwhelmingly support this view. I know that the Catholic understanding was defined in the Middle Ages but am looking for the reasoning behind the decision. Any help? No EO’s please. I am not looking to debate, just a Catholic response. Thank you.
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One of the most damaging attacks by satan against the church has been the lie that when a man dies, he ceases to exist. It is surprising or should I say startling just how many believe in this lie of the devil.

If a man just ceased to exist, then where is his reward or punishment? There is indeed life after death. Most do not understand exactly what death is. Death is seperation from God. When Adam sinned, he brought death to all mankind and to this very day, we suffer physical death.

Now, here is where one must gain understanding before he or she suffers physical death.
When Adam sinned, he died in his spirit, condeming all of mankind to be held prisoner in a place known as death or hell. Because the spirit of man dies through sin, his soul is held prisoner in the place reserved for the dead. Prior to Jesus defeating death, all mankind were held prisoner in hell, both righteous and unrighteous alike.

The reason why I stated a man must gain understanding is simple. If the soul/spirit of a man remains dead in him till he is called of God, physical death, because his soul/spirit is dead, it is taken to the place where the unrighteous dead are reserved until the day of judgement.

That is why it is important a man be born again. For when a man is born again, his soul/spirit is renewed, reborn, born again, giving him fellowship with God. So when this man dies in the flesh, because his spirit has been born again, because he is alive through Christ, his soul/spirit is taken to where the living reside, to heaven.

I will post the complete understanding after this post. I hope this helps you.
 
The resurrection does exist. It is what we call being born again. It deals with the rebirth of the spirit of the man while yet in his flesh, and then the resurrection of the physical body after the man suffers physical death.

When a man is born again, the spirit in him that was dead because of sin is reborn, and can now have association with God.

Yet, the soul is renewed, but what about the body? If a man does not become reborn in his spirit, when he dies, his soul is cast into hell and his body, that returns to dust will never be resurrected.

When a man is born again, and he dies in the flesh, his soul which has been made alive by the quickening spirit Christ Jesus goes to be with him and awaits the day of resurrection when it will be placed into the body that was asleep in the earth.

Jesus will come and all those who were born again and died in the flesh will be with him. They will then be put into their newly resurrected bodies, their uncorruptible bodies, their eternal bodies.

So unless a man is born again in his spirit before he suffers physical death, his soul will forever remain in torment and his physical body will never be resurrected.

Now, those of us who are living at the time Jesus returns will be taken in a blink of an eye just after the resurrection of those who have died in Christ. We will be transformed immediately. Our bodies will die and be changed from corruptible to incorruptible in the blink of an eye and we will met Jesus and all the dead in Christ in the clouds.
 
Does not the Church teach that those in heaven (whether state or place) enjoy the Beatific Vision? Not just a happiness of awaiting said Vision? Is this not different than the EO’s understanding of the current pre-Second Coming afterlife? I can reconcile Purgatory with the Abode of the Dead, but what of Heaven? That really is my question. Thank you to all who responded. You really are doing the Lord’s work by instructing the (hopefully-not-so) ignorant.
 
brendan55 said:
Does not the Church teach that those in heaven (whether state or place) enjoy the Beatific Vision? Not just a happiness of awaiting said Vision? Is this not different than the EO’s understanding of the current pre-Second Coming afterlife? I can reconcile Purgatory with the Abode of the Dead, but what of Heaven? That really is my question. Thank you to all who responded. You really are doing the Lord’s work by instructing the (hopefully-not-so) ignorant.
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At the particular judgement at the time of death, one see’s Jesus, face to face. That, technically, is the start of the beatific vision, but it is not the fullness. The fullness is an eternity of continuing theosis, from that point, after the final judgement!
 
brendan55 said:
Does not the Church teach that those in heaven (whether state or place) enjoy the Beatific Vision? Not just a happiness of awaiting said Vision? Is this not different than the EO’s understanding of the current pre-Second Coming afterlife? I can reconcile Purgatory with the Abode of the Dead, but what of Heaven? That really is my question. Thank you to all who responded. You really are doing the Lord’s work by instructing the (hopefully-not-so) ignorant.
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In line with what brother Aramis has stated, all that the Church has stated is that one enjoys the Beatific Vision. The Church has never defined what that Grace consists of. If you think about it, if one understands the Beatific Vision as the direct and clear perception of God as He truly is, how could you (as a Latin) possibly ever come to fully understand infinity, unless you are infinite? But according to the Latin Church, glorification is not absorption into the infinite, or self-identification with the infinte. No matter what state of perfect happiness one attains in heaven, it cannot ever become or coincide with the very object of the Beatific vision, which is Happiness itself. So even by the “rational” standards of the Latin Church, it is more “logical” to view the Beatific Vision as a process of acquiring joyful knowledge of God.

In mathematics, there is a concept called “approaching the limit,” where a curved line approaches, but never intersects or coincides with a certain value (the limit). Think of God as “the limit” think of yourself as a point on the line, and think of the line as your journey of theosis towards perfection.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
And as other posters have said, many Latins forget that, while we speak of the saints being in Heaven, they have not yet reached their “eternal state” of glory; with the exception of Our Blessed Lady, the saints in heaven are disembodied souls, technically “incomplete” humans, until the resurrection when they are once again united with their glorified bodies.
 
twf said:
And as other posters have said, many Latins forget that, while we speak of the saints being in Heaven, they have not yet reached their “eternal state” of glory; with the exception of Our Blessed Lady, the saints in heaven are disembodied souls, technically “incomplete” humans, until the resurrection when they are once again united with their glorified bodies.
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Yet, I don’t think they are in misery. Jesus told the prisoner on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that day. Yet, where exactly was that paradise? It was in the upper part of hell known as the bosom of Abraham, was it not. So if this place is viewed as paradise, imagine how great it must be in heaven, even not yet in their immortal bodies.
 
mardukm said:
In line with what brother Aramis has stated, all that the Church has stated is that one enjoys the Beatific Vision. The Church has never defined what that Grace consists of. If you think about it, if one understands the Beatific Vision as the direct and clear perception of God as He truly is, how could you (as a Latin) possibly ever come to fully understand infinity, unless you are infinite? But according to the Latin Church, glorification is not absorption into the infinite, or self-identification with the infinte. No matter what state of perfect happiness one attains in heaven, it cannot ever become or coincide with the very object of the Beatific vision, which is Happiness itself. So even by the “rational” standards of the Latin Church, it is more “logical” to view the Beatific Vision as a process of acquiring joyful knowledge of God.

In mathematics, there is a concept called “approaching the limit,” where a curved line approaches, but never intersects or coincides with a certain value (the limit). Think of God as “the limit” think of yourself as a point on the line, and think of the line as your journey of theosis towards perfection.

Blessings,
Marduk
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As a computer scientist who had to take A LOT of math for her B.S. degree, I could REALLY appreciate this analogy. Thanks! 👍
 
heiscominginthe said:
Yet, I don’t think they are in misery. Jesus told the prisoner on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that day. Yet, where exactly was that paradise? It was in the upper part of hell known as the bosom of Abraham, was it not. So if this place is viewed as paradise, imagine how great it must be in heaven, even not yet in their immortal bodies.
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The Catholic Church does not teach that the souls of the saved are in misery, and no one here has stated anything to that effect. They are experiencing the bliss of the beatific vision, but that bliss will not be complete until they are reunited with their bodies at the final judgement. Therefore, they are in an “intermediate state” until that point.

The damned, on the other hand, are in misery and will only suffer more intensely after the resurrection of the body.
 
Fuerza said:
The Catholic Church does not teach that the souls of the saved are in misery, and no one here has stated anything to that effect. They are experiencing the bliss of the beatific vision, but that bliss will not be complete until they are reunited with their bodies at the final judgement. Therefore, they are in an “intermediate state” until that point.

The damned, on the other hand, are in misery and will only suffer more intensely after the resurrection of the body.
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Yet, the unrighteous dead suffer as soon as they are cast into hell. And as you said, more suffering, greater suffering comes when they are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

Now as for the catholic belief, in that all will go through purgatory before going to heaven, that is unscriptural. All who die believing in Christ die only in their flesh, for their soul/spirit was reborn in Christ while they still walked the earth and because of their faith, the soul never dies, but goes to be with Jesus since that is where all the living in Christ go.
 
heiscominginthe said:
Yet, the unrighteous dead suffer as soon as they are cast into hell. And as you said, more suffering, greater suffering comes when they are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

Now as for the catholic belief, in that all will go through purgatory before going to heaven, that is unscriptural. All who die believing in Christ die only in their flesh, for their soul/spirit was reborn in Christ while they still walked the earth and because of their faith, the soul never dies, but goes to be with Jesus since that is where all the living in Christ go.
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This isn’t really the topic of the thread, but it is not Catholic belief that all will go through purgatory before reaching heaven. It is however believed that many, possibly even most, will require some sort of purgation. Even the Catholic Church admits that scriptural evidence for purgatory is weak (although it certainly is in there), and it’s not a problem for us. We rely on Tradition as well as scripture (which scripture tells us to do), and belief in prayer for the dead goes back way before Christ even walked the Earth. Do a little investigation in Judaism, in which belief in prayer for the dead and post-mortem purification holds a central role.
 
When a man is born again, and he dies in the flesh, his soul which has been made alive by the quickening spirit Christ Jesus goes to be with him and awaits the day of resurrection when it will be placed into the body that was asleep in the earth.

.
 
Fuerza said:
This isn’t really the topic of the thread, but it is not Catholic belief that all will go through purgatory before reaching heaven. It is however believed that many, possibly even most, will require some sort of purgation. Even the Catholic Church admits that scriptural evidence for purgatory is weak (although it certainly is in there), and it’s not a problem for us. We rely on Tradition as well as scripture (which scripture tells us to do), and belief in prayer for the dead goes back way before Christ even walked the Earth. Do a little investigation in Judaism, in which belief in prayer for the dead and post-mortem purification holds a central role.
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Do a little investigation in Judaism, in which belief in prayer for the dead and post-mortem purification holds a central role.
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It is written that God is not the god of the dead, but the living.
 
Johnbear said:
When a man is born again, and he dies in the flesh, his soul which has been made alive by the quickening spirit Christ Jesus goes to be with him and awaits the day of resurrection when it will be placed into the body that was asleep in the earth.
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Not sure what your response is to the above Johnbear.
 
brendan55 said:
Does not the Church teach that those in heaven (whether state or place) enjoy the Beatific Vision? Not just a happiness of awaiting said Vision? Is this not different than the EO’s understanding of the current pre-Second Coming afterlife? I can reconcile Purgatory with the Abode of the Dead, but what of Heaven? That really is my question. Thank you to all who responded. You really are doing the Lord’s work by instructing the (hopefully-not-so) ignorant.
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The souls of the faithful departed enjoy the Beatific Vision, but they only enjoy it with their souls. As human beings, we are both body and soul. That most Western of Western Theologians, St Thomas Aquinas, said that if only our souls are saved, we are not truly saved. While the souls in heaven enjoy the experience of God’s presence as far as a disembodied soul can, part of what gives a human soul the full capacity to enjoy God is that it is made for a body. Only at the resurrection will we have the full capacity to enjoy the Beatific Vision which the souls in heaven already experience.

As I understand it, (and I’m no expert) the Eastern Churches (Orthodox at least, not sure about Eastern Catholic) tend to think of heaven, hell and purgatory as the same physical place - the inescapable presence of God - which is a fire for those who have lived in enmity with Him, a light of joy for those who have lived in His friendship, and something in between for those who are somewhere between the two.
 
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