Abolition of death penalty: is it utopian?

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brgregmack

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I think fighting for the abolition of the death penalty IS a utopian goal, and the Church condemns ALL forms of utopianism. I understand that the cases where the penalty would be justified are practically nonexistent in our current state of society, and that’s why many are fighting for its abolition. However, to want it’s absolute abolition imprudently assumes that there will never again be ANY case where it truly would be justified.

…thoughts???
 
brgregmack said:
I think fighting for the abolition of the death penalty IS a utopian goal, and the Church condemns ALL forms of utopianism. I understand that the cases where the penalty would be justified are practically nonexistent in our current state of society, and that’s why many are fighting for its abolition. However, to want it’s absolute abolition imprudently assumes that there will never again be ANY case where it truly would be justified.

…thoughts???
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It’s application cannot be justified within the modern legal framework; therefore abolishing it is a valid goal within that framework. Should the modern legal paradigms disappear, so would the law providing for abolition.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
It’s application cannot be justified within the modern legal framework; therefore abolishing it is a valid goal within that framework. Should the modern legal paradigms disappear, so would the law providing for abolition.

ICXC NIKA
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Could you explain further?

In positing this question, I want to know if anyone else thinks that fighting for outright abolition is singleminded. I personally think that there’s a better way that could make a lot more headway in remedying the unjust use of the death penalty.
 
You do realise that half the countries in the world don’t have the death penalty?
 
Yes, it has been done, eg. in Australia, last century.
If it was ''utopian" to do so, surely the authorities of the Church would have objected to the abolition of the death penalty in Australia

nswccl.org.au/issues/death_penalty/australia.php
Death Penalty in Australia
Code: 
                                      **Australian Law**

                 The last person executed in Australia was [Ronald                         Ryan](http://web.archive.org/web/20040908134249/www.angelfire.com/stars/dorina/ryan.html) in 1967.
                 Australia is a federation of States. The Federal Government                       abolished the death penalty in 1973: [ (Cth)*Death                       Penalty Abolition Act 1973*](http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/dpaa1973228). All Australian                       States and Territories have abolished the death penalty.
                                                                 [RIGHT]**jurisdiction**[/RIGHT]
                                              **last execution**
                                              **abolition**
                                                                                            [RIGHT]Queensland[/RIGHT]
                                              1913
                                              1922
                                                                                            [RIGHT]New South Wales[/RIGHT]
                                              1940
                                              1985(*)
                                                                                            [RIGHT]Tasmania[/RIGHT]
                                              1946
                                              1968
                                                                                            [RIGHT]Commonwealth[/RIGHT]
                                              nil
                                              1973
                                                                                            [RIGHT]ACT[/RIGHT]
                                              nil
                                              1973
                                                                                            [RIGHT]Northern Territory[/RIGHT]
                                              1952
                                              1973
                                                                                            [RIGHT]Victoria[/RIGHT]
                                              1967
                                              1975
                                                                                            [RIGHT]South Australia[/RIGHT]
                                              1964
                                              1976
                                                                                            [RIGHT]Western Australia[/RIGHT]
                                              1964
                                              1984
                                                                                      [RIGHT](*) Though the death penalty for murder                         was abolished in NSW in 1955, NSW was the last state                         to completely abolish the death penalty when in 1985                         capital punishment was abolished for treason and piracy: *Crimes                         Amendment (Death Penalty Abolition) Act 1985* (NSW).
[/RIGHT]
 
Perhaps you should check out the map here which shows how few countries use the death penalty on the same kind of basis (abolished/abolished in practice/only in special circumstances/retained).

You might be surprised at the countries you share a policy with.
 
Teaching of the U.S. bishops [regarding the death penalty]
Code: 
             The Catholic bishops of the United States have                    provided careful guidance about this difficult issue, applying                    the teaching of the universal Church to our American culture.                    Along with the leadership assemblies of many Churches (for example.                    American Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Episcopalians, Lutherans,                    Presbyterians), the U.S. bishops have expressed their opposition                    to the death penalty. First articulated in 1974, the bishops'                    position is explained in a 1980 statement, *Capital Punishment*.                    Individual bishops and state conferences of bishops have repeated                    in numerous teachings their opposition to the death penalty.                  

             In their 1980 statement, the bishops begin by                    noting that punishment, "since it involves the deliberate infliction                    of evil on another," must be justifiable. They acknowledge that                    the Christian tradition has for a long time recognized a government's                    right to protect its citizens by using the death penalty in                    some serious situations. The bishops ask, however, if capital                    punishment is still justifiable in the present circumstances                    in the United States.
In this context, the bishops enter the debate about deterrence and retribution. They acknowledge that capital punishment certainly prevents the criminal from committing more crimes, yet question whether it prevents others from doing so. Similarly, concerning retribution, the bishops support the arguments against death as an appropriate form of punishment. The bishops add that reform is a third reason given to justify punishment, but it clearly does not apply in the case of capital punishment. And so they affirm: “We believe that in the conditions of contemporary American society, the legitimate purposes of punishment do not justify the imposition of the death penalty.”
americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp

Thereforein answer to your question, it would seem that the Church does not view the abolition of the death penalty as utopian, but as a moral necessity.
 
Kaninchen said:
Why would it be utopian in the US but not in other countries?
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I didn’t say that it wouldn’t be and isn’t a utopian ideal in other countries. If it’s already abolished in any given country, then it’s a moot point in that country. But where the debate is still going on, then the question of whether or not there is a better way of getting the problem dealt with must be asked.

I propose a two-pronged approach of further restricting when it can be implemented and providing for legal action and a harsh penalty when it can be proven that its use was unjust after the fact.
 
Trishie said:
“We believe that in the conditions of contemporary American society, the legitimate purposes of punishment do not justify the imposition of the death penalty.”
americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp

Thereforein answer to your question, it would seem that the Church does not view the abolition of the death penalty as utopian, but as a moral necessity.

But you assume that the conditions of society can’t or won’t ever change to where there WOULD be justifiable uses of the death penalty, which the Church (in this statement) does NOT assume. The key phrase is “in the conditions of contemporary American society.” Conditions of society can change and have changed throughout the course of history.
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If your concern is the USA, you must admit that there is no need for executions in the USA. The communities of which can easily protect themselves without recourse to execution.

Punishing the perpetrators after an unjust execution is no use to the one subjected to it; so that in itself is not good enough.

Since execution inflicts an irredeemable evil on a human being, while achieving no good purpose (in the USA) that cannot be achieved without it, abolition is not only not utopian, it is overdue. When a society can protect itself otherwise, revulsion at someone’s actions is no valid reason to end his being.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
brgregmack said:
I didn’t say that it wouldn’t be and isn’t a utopian ideal in other countries. If it’s already abolished in any given country, then it’s a moot point in that country. But where the debate is still going on, then the question of whether or not there is a better way of getting the problem dealt with must be asked.

I propose a two-pronged approach of further restricting when it can be implemented and providing for legal action and a harsh penalty when it can be proven that its use was unjust after the fact.
Click to expand...
The thing is that most other countries went from having the death penalty to not having the death penalty and that wasn’t achieved by wishful-thinking.

Saying that it’s utopian in the case of the US suggests that there is something unique about Americans and the death penalty. I think you’d have to consider that first.
 
Kaninchen said:
The thing is that most other countries went from having the death penalty to not having the death penalty and that wasn’t achieved by wishful-thinking.

Saying that it’s utopian in the case of the US suggests that there is something unique about Americans and the death penalty. I think you’d have to consider that first.
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You’re still assuming that I’m saying that it isn’t utopian in other countries…
 
Kaninchen said:
You’d have to establish that it was utopian in other countries.
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My view of abolition of the death penalty as utopian isn’t based on a country by country scrutiny. It’s based upon seeing in it the ignoring of the extreme evil that can come out of men’s hearts WITH the possibility of conditions of justified capital punishment. Still I pray that those conditions never be met.
 
GEddie said:
If your concern is the USA, you must admit that there is no need for executions in the USA. The communities of which can easily protect themselves without recourse to execution.

Punishing the perpetrators after an unjust execution is no use to the one subjected to it; so that in itself is not good enough.

Since execution inflicts an irredeemable evil on a human being, while achieving no good purpose (in the USA) that cannot be achieved without it, abolition is not only not utopian, it is overdue. When a society can protect itself otherwise, revulsion at someone’s actions is no valid reason to end his being.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
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If the penalty were harsh enough, it should be a deterrent for implementing it in the first place, thereby sparing more.

Also, I do recognize that as things stand there really is no need. But my personal experience with public protests for outright abolition have given me the impression of being closed-minded to other routes of making legislation reflect the significant lack of need.
 
i think the idea that we could ever have a human justice system that would never convict innocent people is Utopian.

there is no such crime whatsoever in which we are morally or religiously obligated to give the death penalty for, but are you comfortable with killing innocent people in the meantime?

we do have a problem with overcrowded prisons, which some cite as a reason for DP (awful imo to kill people over “logistics”), but overcrowding of prisons has much more to do with all these non-violent prison sentences and economic stratification of our communities via things like suburban flight, leaving the poor behind to live among each other like lepers in bleak desperation zones.
 
Jonatello said:
i think the idea that we could ever have a human justice system that would never convict innocent people is Utopian.

there is no such crime whatsoever in which we are morally or religiously obligated to give the death penalty for, but are you comfortable with killing innocent people in the meantime?

we do have a problem with overcrowded prisons, which some cite as a reason for DP (awful imo to kill people over “logistics”), but overcrowding of prisons has much more to do with all these non-violent prison sentences and economic stratification of our communities via things like suburban flight, leaving the poor behind to live among each other like lepers in bleak desperation zones.
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I don’t think you’re reading me accurately. I acknowledge the extremely unjust use of the death penalty as it now stands. However, I think it needs to be on the books legally just in case something comes up where there really is no other option to protect society.

Perhaps another way to put it is that I would like to see more creativity in remedying this grave injustice like there is going on in the fight against abortion, which is far worse.
 
brgregmack said:
I don’t think you’re reading me accurately. I acknowledge the extremely unjust use of the death penalty as it now stands. However, I think it needs to be on the books legally just in case something comes up where there really is no other option to protect society.

Perhaps another way to put it is that I would like to see more creativity in remedying this grave injustice like there is going on in the fight against abortion, which is far worse.
Click to expand...
i haven’t checked, but i think its my second line where i addressed your concern about it being unavailable in the rare occasion when its finally needed (i said something to the effect of i don’t believe there is such a rare occasion, and then asked even if there was, would its availability in that instance be worth all the innocent lives lost in the meantime)

but as an anti-abortion and anti-deathpenalty creative pragmatist who believes in focusing on common ground solutions and progress, i am definitely interested if you have anything in mind as far as possible steps to remedy (doesn’t have to be perfect, but curious what you have in mind)
 
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