Abolition of death penalty: is it utopian?

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brgregmack said:
I don’t think you’re reading me accurately. I acknowledge the extremely unjust use of the death penalty as it now stands. However, I think it needs to be on the books legally just in case something comes up where there really is no other option to protect society.
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That’s where we differ: as I understand it, as long as our legal system is in operation, ISTM there will always be alternative “options” to ending people’s beings for the sake of justice.

If our (USA) legal system is ever in collapse due to physical events, foreign attack, etc; whatever is on the books in the 2010s will not be an issue.

ICXC NIKA.
 
Jonatello said:
but as an anti-abortion and anti-deathpenalty creative pragmatist who believes in focusing on common ground solutions and progress, i am definitely interested if you have anything in mind as far as possible steps to remedy (doesn’t have to be perfect, but curious what you have in mind)
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Just read my earlier posts. Also, one possible solution for dealing with overpopulation could be to allow prisoners to be transported across state lines…
 
GEddie said:
That’s where we differ: as I understand it, as long as our legal system is in operation, ISTM there will always be alternative “options” to ending people’s beings for the sake of justice.

If our (USA) legal system is ever in collapse due to physical events, foreign attack, etc; whatever is on the books in the 2010s will not be an issue.

ICXC NIKA.
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Keep in mind that there could be other deteriorations without a legal collapse, e.g. financial.
 
brgregmack said:
Just read my earlier posts. Also, one possible solution for dealing with overpopulation could be to allow prisoners to be transported across state lines…
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maybe i’m still missing it, but i’ve gone through everything and don’t seem to see it.

i see where you say “i propose a 2-pronged approach” but don’t see what that approach is

i might just be blind tonight? lol
 
Jonatello said:
maybe i’m still missing it, but i’ve gone through everything and don’t seem to see it.

i see where you say “i propose a 2-pronged approach” but don’t see what that approach is

i might just be blind tonight? lol
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To get specific: Restrict the allowance of implementation in the extreme (e.g. dangerous criminal having difficult time keeping locked up, has escaped many times, no prisons with security needed). For the penalty after the fact if it can be proven that it was unjust, I propose disbarring the prosecutor.
 
brgregmack said:
Keep in mind that there could be other deteriorations without a legal collapse, e.g. financial.
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Doesn’t matter. The legal system and it’s physical appurtenances (police, prisons, etc) are what “protect the society” and would remain unless physical destruction prevailed.
 
Sorry for a perhaps stupid question, but what is bad about something being utopian?
Maybe there is something else implied… I’ve always thought “utopian” to mean “ideal, perfect” etc.
 
laircy said:
Sorry for a perhaps stupid question, but what is bad about something being utopian?
Maybe there is something else implied… I’ve always thought “utopian” to mean “ideal, perfect” etc.
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Utopia has always been understood as being unachievable; “utopian situations” are likewise unrealistic.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
Utopia has always been understood as being unachievable; “utopian situations” are likewise unrealistic.

ICXC NIKA
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So the Church condemns it because it is too unrealistic? Couldn’t one say outlawing abortion in the US is also utopian? :confused:
 
brgregmack said:
To get specific: Restrict the allowance of implementation in the extreme (e.g. dangerous criminal having difficult time keeping locked up, has escaped many times, no prisons with security needed). For the penalty after the fact if it can be proven that it was unjust, I propose disbarring the prosecutor.
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i would support the first part if the footnote signified by this asterisk right here > * < was not true. The second part, although I have my own issues with prosecutors and the whole system we have for prosecution, I can’t cosign because I just don’t think it would be fair to honest prosecutors and could also make finding a willing prosecutor almost impossible the worse the crime is.
    • i believe, while there are still loud and vocal proponents, the death penalty is rapidly losing popularity overall in this nation and it is reasonable to expect it could be eradicated and successfully banned within a generation or so. If this weren’t the case (a la abortion), I’d be much more willing to switch focus toward alternative pragmatic solutions.
 
laircy said:
Ah, I see. What would be an example of something utopian, then?
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—Abolition of all criminal punishment?

—Abolition of poverty (given that our LORD said the poor would always be around)?

ICXC NIKA
 
laircy said:
Sorry for a perhaps stupid question, but what is bad about something being utopian?
Maybe there is something else implied… I’ve always thought “utopian” to mean “ideal, perfect” etc.
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You’re thinking along the right lines. Anything is considered utopian when it ignores the imperfections of our fallen nature (e.g. Communism, socialism, and various forms of capitalism).
 
GEddie said:
Utopia has always been understood as being unachievable; “utopian situations” are likewise unrealistic.

ICXC NIKA
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Again, you’re thinking along the right lines, but that’s not the whole picture. I don’t consider absolute abolition of DP utopian because it is unachievable, but because I think it ignores the imperfections of man.
 
Jonatello said:
i would support the first part if the footnote signified by this asterisk right here > * < was not true. The second part, although I have my own issues with prosecutors and the whole system we have for prosecution, I can’t cosign because I just don’t think it would be fair to honest prosecutors and could also make finding a willing prosecutor almost impossible the worse the crime is.
    • i believe, while there are still loud and vocal proponents, the death penalty is rapidly losing popularity overall in this nation and it is reasonable to expect it could be eradicated and successfully banned within a generation or so. If this weren’t the case (a la abortion), I’d be much more willing to switch focus toward alternative pragmatic solutions.
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Having more focus on pragmatic solutions doesn’t necessarily mean that one shouldn’t stop going for the jugular. If pragmatic dialogue were going on, I think progress would be a lot quicker.

Like I said earlier, if protests have given ME the impression of being closed-minded, than I’m not the only one. Bad impressions can hinder progress.
 
GEddie said:
The Church disagrees that ending the DP is utopian.
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The only thing that would change my mind would be if JPII called for ending the DP ex cathedra, which I don’t think he did. (I could be mistaken).
 
brgregmack said:
The only thing that would change my mind would be if JPII called for ending the DP ex cathedra, which I don’t think he did. (I could be mistaken).
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He didn’t, and no Pope can, because that would conflict with centuries of church theology.

If that is really the only thing that would convince you, then we should just agree to disagree; because I’d say there is absolutely no reason to end a person’s being for the sake of “justice,” or to allow such just because a social collapse may someday occur. Law is for the here and now. Those living with social collapse will adapt laws to the conditions they know.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
He didn’t, and no Pope can, because that would conflict with centuries of church theology.

If that is really the only thing that would convince you, then we should just agree to disagree; because I’d say there is absolutely no reason to end a person’s being for the sake of “justice,” or to allow such just because a social collapse may someday occur. Law is for the here and now. Those living with social collapse will adapt laws to the conditions they know.

ICXC NIKA
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One last and succinct way to put my view: Keep it on paper, but render it next to impossible to use.
 
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