That’s better than the way I would have put it.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Thanks for the thumbs up, but I must ask: What do you mean by “Wrong, the whore of babylon is yet to come”?That’s better than the way I would have put it.
The interpretation I shared was refering to first century Jerusalem and it’s destruction by the Romans in 70 A.D. In otherwords, the whore of Babylon is not still to come. Rather, it is ancient history.
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Mumbles140
Guest
Thank you for the clarification!
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ryanoneil
Guest
Your Welcome! Randy Carson provided some good links that are similar.
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jschutzm
Guest
Here’s the thing that I NEVER get about nearly all these references to Revelations or the Book of Mormon… all of the supposed references seem to state that this Abomination will consume or torture the Saints.
Problem is… where in History has the Catholic church tortured or killed Saints? – If anything the Catholic church is attacked because we uphold the Saints, have memorials to them, Holidays, statues, are even accused of Worshipping them.
That doesn’t sound like torturing and killing Saint to ME? – so that never made any sense to me.
That’s like accusing America of being Evil because we killed and tortured the Founding Fathers – which we don’t. We build monuments to them, put them on our money, have holidays, etc.
Problem is… where in History has the Catholic church tortured or killed Saints? – If anything the Catholic church is attacked because we uphold the Saints, have memorials to them, Holidays, statues, are even accused of Worshipping them.
That doesn’t sound like torturing and killing Saint to ME? – so that never made any sense to me.
That’s like accusing America of being Evil because we killed and tortured the Founding Fathers – which we don’t. We build monuments to them, put them on our money, have holidays, etc.
Revelation ch 17: 15 The angel continued, 'The waters you saw, beside which the prostitute was sitting, are all the peoples, the populations, the nations and the languages.
Revelation ch 17: 18 The woman you saw is the great city which has authority over all the rulers on earth.’
Jerusalem hasn’t had this authority yet but it will when the antichrist rules.
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ryanoneil
Guest
There has been an initial fulfillment already. Please read the links from Randy Carson.
Also, the earth/land is symbolic of the holy land in apocalyptic liturature, while the sea always represents the gentiles surrounding it. Since Jerusalem was the center of political power in Canaan and, under the authority of the Romans, it ruled a considerable amount of territory and less powerful peoples. On this thesis “the kings of the earth” would be “the kings of the land” (the Greek phrase can be translated either way). Such local rulers of the land of Canaan would naturally resent Jerusalem and wish to cooperate with the Romans in its destruction—just as history records they did. Local non-Jewish peoples were used by the Romans in the capture of Jerusalem. I got that from the first link. So it is not accurate to say it didn’t happen, because it did.
Catholics are typically amillenial meaning we believe that we are currently in the 1,000 years of Rev 20. The next events in history (in my opinion) would be:
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:7-10)
A final tribulation and anti-christ will come with Gog and Magog. Will an abominable church give them religious cover? I don’t know. Maybe details from the first 19 chapters will repeat in this final context somehow, but they wouldn’t necessarily have to. Does that make sense?
If this is applied to Rome they did have political authority. St. Paul even referred
If this is applied to Jerusalem it could refer to the manipulation by Jerusalem’s leadership to get the Roman state persecuting the Christians.
Also, the earth/land is symbolic of the holy land in apocalyptic liturature, while the sea always represents the gentiles surrounding it. Since Jerusalem was the center of political power in Canaan and, under the authority of the Romans, it ruled a considerable amount of territory and less powerful peoples. On this thesis “the kings of the earth” would be “the kings of the land” (the Greek phrase can be translated either way). Such local rulers of the land of Canaan would naturally resent Jerusalem and wish to cooperate with the Romans in its destruction—just as history records they did. Local non-Jewish peoples were used by the Romans in the capture of Jerusalem. I got that from the first link. So it is not accurate to say it didn’t happen, because it did.
Catholics are typically amillenial meaning we believe that we are currently in the 1,000 years of Rev 20. The next events in history (in my opinion) would be:
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:7-10)
A final tribulation and anti-christ will come with Gog and Magog. Will an abominable church give them religious cover? I don’t know. Maybe details from the first 19 chapters will repeat in this final context somehow, but they wouldn’t necessarily have to. Does that make sense?
I’ve never known anybody say this before you.
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markomalley
Guest
An interesting piece of trivia somebody pointed out to me a while ago (don’t remember who, so I can’t give attribution).
Click on the thumbnail below for a map of ancient Rome:
i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/markomalley/anticatholic/oldromemap-1.jpg
You can clearly see that the Vatican is on the NW side of the city of Rome…opposite the Tiber. The walls of Rome are clearly defined in this map, so there should be no question. The fact that the modern city of Rome goes all around the Vatican has nothing to do with what was written in the Apocalypse.
To get to the Vatican in the first century, one would literally have to cross the Tiber…out of Rome.
Just something to consider when discussing the abomination &tc with our separated brethren…
Click on the thumbnail below for a map of ancient Rome:
i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/markomalley/anticatholic/oldromemap-1.jpg
You can clearly see that the Vatican is on the NW side of the city of Rome…opposite the Tiber. The walls of Rome are clearly defined in this map, so there should be no question. The fact that the modern city of Rome goes all around the Vatican has nothing to do with what was written in the Apocalypse.
To get to the Vatican in the first century, one would literally have to cross the Tiber…out of Rome.
Just something to consider when discussing the abomination &tc with our separated brethren…
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ryanoneil
Guest
Historically, amillennialism is the Catholic position. Here is an article explaining it.
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
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StTommyMore
Guest
There are two schools of thought. One places its date in the AD60’s.
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ryanoneil
Guest
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FCEGM
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Walt_in_Orlando
Guest
I believe it IS Jerusalem Israel, Not Rome, that is spoken of As the Whore Of Babylon.
Apologist Scoot Hahn does an excellent job outlining Why, it is so.
defendingthebride.com/ch/whore2.html
This passage in Revelation 11:8 is most important because it clues us in as to where this “great city” is. It is “WHERE indeed their Lord was crucified.” It is Jerusalem.
SEVEN HILLS
Revelation 17:9-10 “Here is a clue for one who has wisdom. The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings: five have already fallen, one still lives, and the last has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a short while.”
7 HILLS of JERUSALEM
Jerusalem was a large city spreading beyond the walls of the fort and onto the seven hills there during the time of Jesus and the Apostles.
It’s seven hills are;
1.) Mount Gared; 2.) Mount Goath; 3.) Mount Acra; 4.) Mount Bezetha; 5.) Mount Moriah; 6.) Mount Ophel; 7.) Mount Zion.
Sometimes, some will substitute the first four with the Mount of Olives, Mount of Offence, Mount of Evil Counsel, and Mount Calvary.
Apologist Scoot Hahn does an excellent job outlining Why, it is so.
defendingthebride.com/ch/whore2.html
This passage in Revelation 11:8 is most important because it clues us in as to where this “great city” is. It is “WHERE indeed their Lord was crucified.” It is Jerusalem.
SEVEN HILLS
Revelation 17:9-10 “Here is a clue for one who has wisdom. The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings: five have already fallen, one still lives, and the last has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a short while.”
7 HILLS of JERUSALEM
Jerusalem was a large city spreading beyond the walls of the fort and onto the seven hills there during the time of Jesus and the Apostles.
It’s seven hills are;
1.) Mount Gared; 2.) Mount Goath; 3.) Mount Acra; 4.) Mount Bezetha; 5.) Mount Moriah; 6.) Mount Ophel; 7.) Mount Zion.
Sometimes, some will substitute the first four with the Mount of Olives, Mount of Offence, Mount of Evil Counsel, and Mount Calvary.
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