Aborted babies go to hell!?!?

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it has everything to do with the fact that they were killed because herod was trying to kill Jesus. So they were being killed in the name of Jesus. Unborn babies aren’t killed in a searching for Jesus or in the name of Jesus. the Holy innocents were killed in the name of Jesus.
St. Maximillian Kolbe is a martyr for Christ even though he didn’t die specifically in the name of Jesus; he died protecting the sanctity of human life, we who are the children of God.

I don’t see how you can say the Holy Innocents, then, are martyrs because even though they didn’t believe in Jesus they were killed in his name, but babies in the womb aren’t martyrs because they’re being killed for lack of belief in the sanctity of God’s life.
 
…what does happen with the unborn children who die because of miscarriages?
I wonder if the term “miscarriage” only applies to those zygotes, which already got implanted into the uterus wall? Though it hardly matters. The fact is that MOST zygotes get’s “flushed out” from the woman’s body. Of course these biological facts were unknown to the ancient people who came up with the idea that baptism is a necessary component of “salvation”. Rather uncool, I guess 🙂
 
I don’t see how you can say the Holy Innocents, then, are martyrs because even though they didn’t believe in Jesus they were killed in his name, but babies in the womb aren’t martyrs because they’re being killed for lack of belief in the sanctity of God’s life.
Earlier someone said that possibly Baptism of Desire would apply in the case of the children of believers. Someone else said that it wouldn’t matter if the parents were believers or not, that Baptism of Desire would either apply to all children or none.

It seems to me that the case of the Holy Innocents could follow the same type of logic. Either outside people/actions can affect the salvation of others or it can not. Or perhaps they are Saints/martyrs for another reason…
 
I wonder if the term “miscarriage” only applies to those zygotes, which already got implanted into the uterus wall? Though it hardly matters. The fact is that MOST zygotes get’s “flushed out” from the woman’s body. Of course these biological facts were unknown to the ancient people who came up with the idea that baptism is a necessary component of “salvation”. Rather uncool, I guess 🙂
They didn’t understand how the process of pregnancy worked in the same way that we do, but they were well aware that miscarriages happen. That’s why even in the 1st century we see Christian condemnations of abortion.
 
Earlier someone said that possibly Baptism of Desire would apply in the case of the children of believers. Someone else said that it wouldn’t matter if the parents were believers or not, that Baptism of Desire would either apply to all children or none.

It seems to me that the case of the Holy Innocents could follow the same type of logic. Either outside people/actions can affect the salvation of others or it can not. Or perhaps they are Saints/martyrs for another reason…
The Church has only applied BoD to those that desire baptism for themselves. However, many moral theologians have tried to make the case that it may/can apply to those unborn babies of Christian parents. I don’t think the Church as officially adopted this thought, though.
 
The word hell they are using could very well be meaning PURGATORY. Like when we say the I belive in God prayer in the middle of it we say “Jesus was cruxfied, died and was buried. he decended into hell” (purgatory)

But i’m only guessing. You know what and I forgot where i read this however i read that the babies aborted are with the Virgin Mary in heaven praying for their parents who have aborted them.
Incorrect, what it refers to is Abraham’s Bosom, a “safety net” (if you will) in hell (land of the dead; Hades) for those who died in God’s favor before the coming of Christ, and before admittance into heaven.

Purgatory isn’t taught to be a place, but a process of cleansing before entering heaven. Jesus wouldn’t have gone through purgatory as he had nothing to be cleansed of.

Jesus went to Abraham’s Bosom and preached to the souls there and brought them back to Earth with him, then they were taken up to Heaven.

To the OP: The Church has not made an infallible statement as to what happens to those children who are aborted, miscarried, or died in pregnancy or at birth (before baptism). Because they have no actual sin, the Church does no think the mercy of the Lord would allow them the sufferings of Hell, but with the Original Sin afflicting them, they are not yet worthy of Heaven either. For a while the Church taught of a theoretical place of Limbo, which is somewhere in-between, but I don’t think that belief is held much anymore (was never doctrine). Now, I think it is best to just leave them to the Mercy and Justice of the Lord. Pray for them, as we pray for adults who die, that the Lord will have mercy on their souls and to accept them into his Heavenly Kingdom.
 
Of course these biological facts were unknown to the ancient people who came up with the idea that baptism is a necessary component of “salvation”.
And perhaps that’s why they weren’t so sure either about the exact moment of ensouling.
I suppose that unborn or newborn babies weren’t anyway the focus of their teaching; these theories about unbaptized babies - limbo/a “milder” hell/hell - were rather used to prove a point (that there is no salvation for any unbaptized human being, regardless of their age). Something like “if not even innocent children can be saved in the absence of the Baptism, then what about adults?”
 
Can you truly argue that a child, conceived and put in place by God, who is taken by that same God naturally before birth, is punished for it? What was the point to their creation then, if not to serve God in the invisible realm? I have always been under the impression that our God, the one I worship and adore and give my whole self to, is not a cruel one.
 
***Council of Lyons II: “…The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished with different punishments…-- (Denzinger 464)

Council of Florence: “…Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds.— (Denzinger 693)

Pope John XXII: “It (The Roman Church) teaches… that the souls… of those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places.” (Denzinger 493(a).

“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my father’s house there are many mansions”(JN14:2): that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is eternal life, let him be anathema. For when the lord says :“Unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God”(Jn3:5), what Catholic will doubt that he will be partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a co-heir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left” (Denzinger 102 fn.2; 30th edition)***

**St. Augustine … in the course of the controversy he himself condemned, and persuaded the Council of Carthage (418) to condemn, the substantially identical Pelagian teaching affirming the existence of “an intermediate place, or of any place anywhere at all (ullus alicubi locus), in which children who pass out of this life unbaptized live in happiness” (Denzinger 102).

Tradition holds that Zosimus published the canons of Council of Carthage as his own making them infallable in his famous Tractoria", in which Pelagianism and its authors were condemned.

“Thus, finally, the occupant of the Apostolic See at the right moment maintained with all authority the traditional dogma of the Church, and protected the truth of the Church against error.” (catholic Ecyclo. “Zosimus”)That is Why Denzinger 102 under the section of Zosimus in the Denzinger**
My advice to you, given your posting history: strengthen your faith first, learn exactly what the Catholic church teaches and assent to it before delving into complex theology like this.

Second, the Church has not contradicted itself. It merely now says she entrusts unbaptized infants to the mercy of God. That is not incompatible with the theories presented above.

Finally, we know that God desires the salvation of all, so we know he will not torment unbaptized infants for eternity. But we also know the baptism is an absolute necessity for heaven. We cannot say for sure that they will be in heaven, which is why “limbo” was theorized, but it was never defined as a dogma of faith so there is bound to be change. The simple fact is, we do not know for sure, but we know that God will deal mercifully with them.

This is lifted directly from the old Catholic Encyclopedia on “Limbo”:

• we must not confound St. Augustine’s private authority with the infallible authority of the Catholic Church; and
• if allowance be made for the confusion introduced into the Pelagian controversy by the want of a clear and explicit conception of the distinction between the natural and the supernatural order one can easily understand why St. Augustine and the Council of Carthage were practically bound to condemn the locus medius of the Pelagians. St. Augustine himself was inclined to deny this distinction altogether, although the Greek Fathers had already developed it pretty fully, and although some of the Pelagians had a glimmering of it (see Coelestius in August., De Peccat. Orig., v), they based their claim to natural happiness for unbaptized children on a denial of the Fall and original sin, and identified this state of happiness with the “life eternal” of the New Testament.
• Moreover, even if one were to admit for the sake of argument that this canon of the Council of Carthage (the authenticity of which cannot be reasonably doubted) acquired the force of an ecumenical definition, one ought to interpret it in the light of what was understood to be at issue by both sides in the controversy, and therefore add to the simple locus medius the qualification which is added by Pius VI when, in the Constitution “Auctoreum Fidei”, he speaks of “locum illium et statum medium expertem culpae et poenae.”
• Finally, in regard to the teaching of the Council of Florence, it is incredible that the Fathers there assembled had any intention of defining a question so remote from the issue on which reunion with the Greeks depended, and one which was recognized at the time as being open to free discussion and continued to be so regarded by theologians for several centuries afterwards. What the council evidently intended to deny in the passage alleged was the postponement of final awards until the day of judgement. Those dying in original sin are said to descend into Hell, but this does not necessarily mean anything more than that they are excluded eternally from the vision of God. In this sense they are damned; they have failed to reach their supernatural destiny, and this viewed objectively is a true penalty. Thus the Council of Florence, however literally interpreted, does not deny the possibility of perfect subjective happiness for those dying in original sin, and this is all that is needed from the dogmatic viewpoint to justify the prevailing Catholic notion of the children’s limbo, while from the standpoint of reason, as St. Gregory of Nazianzus pointed out long ago, no harsher view can be reconciled with a worthy concept of God’s justice and other attributes.
 
Ben, you seem to keep deliberately searching for things to disturb your faith.

You need to stop that, and spend some serious time studying the Catechism of the Catholic Church, so you have a foundation on which to build.
 
Now this bothers me for 2 reasons
  1. The teaching that unbaptized babies go to hell
  2. These quotes seem to be in conflict with what the church teaches now…thus making it’s infallibility shaky to me
Please help me! I dont want babies going to hell and I don’t want the church to be fallible!😦

…and here is another quote I found on a different catholic message board…

**Pope St. Siricius, 385, [Concerning the necessity of baptism] **
“Therefore just as we declare that respect for the Easter sacrifice [Paschal time] should not be lessened in the case of any person, in like manner we wish help to be brought with all speed to children who because of their age cannot yet speak, and to those who in any emergency are in need of the water of holy baptism, lest it should lead to the destruction of our souls if, by refusing the water of salvation to those who desire it, each of them, when taking leave of this world, should lose both the kingdom and life. Indeed whoever suffers the peril of shipwreck, an enemy attack, the danger of siege or desperation resulting from some bodily infirmity, and so asks for what in their faith is their only help, let them receive at the moment of their request the reward of regeneration that they beg for. This much should suffice for my digression on this subject; now let all priests who do not wish to be wrenched from the firmly-fixed rock of the apostles, on which Christ built his universal church, hold fast to the aforesaid rule.” (Latin found in Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Latin Edition, 1962, no. 184; an English Translation found in The Christian Faith, Sixth Revised and Enlarged Edition, Staten Island, NY: Alba House, 1996, p. 540.)

Notice that Pope St. Siricius says that not only infants, but even those who desire baptism and who are not able to recieve it sacramentally are deprived of "the kingdom and life."

…what is going on here, is the teaching of baptism of desire is being contradicted also?

I’m freaked out!:eek:
How can a G-d of love, compassion, and mercy send an infant who was aborted on account of their mother to hell? This makes no sense to me. Then again, Judaism does not believe in original sin, so I’m thinking from a different paradigm.
 
Incorrect, what it refers to is Abraham’s Bosom, a “safety net” (if you will) in hell (land of the dead; Hades) for those who died in God’s favor before the coming of Christ, and before admittance into heaven.

Purgatory isn’t taught to be a place, but a process of cleansing before entering heaven. Jesus wouldn’t have gone through purgatory as he had nothing to be cleansed of.

Jesus went to Abraham’s Bosom and preached to the souls there and brought them back to Earth with him, then they were taken up to Heaven.

To the OP: The Church has not made an infallible statement as to what happens to those children who are aborted, miscarried, or died in pregnancy or at birth (before baptism). Because they have no actual sin, the Church does no think the mercy of the Lord would allow them the sufferings of Hell, but with the Original Sin afflicting them, they are not yet worthy of Heaven either. For a while the Church taught of a theoretical place of Limbo, which is somewhere in-between, but I don’t think that belief is held much anymore (was never doctrine). Now, I think it is best to just leave them to the Mercy and Justice of the Lord. Pray for them, as we pray for adults who die, that the Lord will have mercy on their souls and to accept them into his Heavenly Kingdom.
I must say this is a very good answer. However, Limbo has never been denied by the Church and seems to be the best solution. Here is a good link that goes into this further.

newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/06/nativity-of-st-john-baptist-and-limbo.html
 
Broaden this out, why is abortion so prevelant, but because of the sins of those that let it come to be.
to those that promote it as an industry of profit for those that perform, to the ludity, vulgarity, and permiscuaous natures that bring on the free for all sexual activity that todays CHILDREN waller in that see innercourse as an after school activity…

those are the souls that are NOT going to heaven, but with that lest broaden this out to those that merely look on and condon the actions by not standing against the sin that it is…

very few people are going to heaven, that is for sure, though the multitudes claim to be…

merely shaking your head in disgust doesnt excuss from the reality of the issue

though shall not covet the neighbors wife, but nor that which is not your wife. these are sins that can never be forgiven, of those that dont stand against by admitting they are sins that are unforgivenable.
Your “god” is a terrifying entity. How do you live with this belief system? Did Jesus do all that He did for nothing? And…what would that make Him, having (as part of the Trinity) the foreknowledge that “very few people are going to heaven…”? Don’t mean to be on the attack here but these statements are provocative and, frankly, perhaps even influenced by the “father of Lies”. No one, not one among us now or ever, can make statements regarding the final judgment of another. That is God’s domain, and His alone.
 
St. Maximillian Kolbe is a martyr for Christ even though he didn’t die specifically in the name of Jesus; he died protecting the sanctity of human life, we who are the children of God.

I don’t see how you can say the Holy Innocents, then, are martyrs because even though they didn’t believe in Jesus they were killed in his name, but babies in the womb aren’t martyrs because they’re being killed for lack of belief in the sanctity of God’s life.
there is a link on the first page one of the first two posts of Jimmy Aiken discussing this issue go watch it.
 
One other point about this topic that may be worth pondering. Doesn’t Catholicism believe that it is we who choose hell by our own free will? If that is the case, does an aborted infant choose hell by their free will? If the answer is no, then can an infant go to hell?
 
though shall not covet the neighbors wife, but nor that which is not your wife. these are sins that can never be forgiven, of those that dont stand against by admitting they are sins that are unforgivenable.
I’m sorry, but this is contrary to Church teaching, and pretty much all Christian teaching. There is no sin too big or gruesome to be unforgivable, for our God is a Merciful one. It is said in the NT that only one sin is unforgivable, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is, in knowing that you have done wrong by God from your sin, you remain unrepentant.
 
I’m sorry, but this is contrary to Church teaching, and pretty much all Christian teaching. There is no sin too big or gruesome to be unforgivable, for our God is a Merciful one. It is said in the NT that only one sin is unforgivable, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is, in knowing that you have done wrong by God from your sin, you remain unrepentant.
It is also contrary to Jewish teaching.
 
One other point about this topic that may be worth pondering. Doesn’t Catholicism believe that it is we who choose hell by our own free will? If that is the case, does an aborted infant choose hell by their free will? If the answer is no, then can an infant go to hell?
Yes, this is correct but the Church also teaches that one that dies with Original Sin cannot go to Heaven.
 
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