Abortion and DUI

[Doc_Keele]

It was a strawman because the none of the teachings of the Church are taught as “just because she said so”. Just because I didn’t recite them doesn’t mean the Church doesn’t have well thought out reasons for all her teachings

That’s not a straw man then is it?

With reason

Begging the question.

Why do you think it doesn’t?

Your answer above for one.

 

[davidv]

That’s not a straw man then is it?

Your assertion was a strawman.

Begging the question.

Your answer above for one.

I guess you’re not interested in a rational discourse on this subject.
Good day.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Your assertion was a strawman.

I guess you’re not interested in a rational discourse on this subject.
Good day.

Err, no - the problem is you don’t seem able to have a rational discourse

You still haven’t been able to state the basis of the Church’s moral absolutist deontological approach, and you won’t be able to - because it does boil down to “because we said so”. Please feel free to try and prove me wrong:shrug:

 

[LittleSoldier]

I did not say they are equal, you are twisting my words.

I said they are both grave sin.

Yeah, like we couldn’t see that coming…

Doc, it is very simple. They are both grave sins. I’m surprised you don’t know this, as you are a Carmelite Novice.

When one commits a grave act with full knowledge and intent, and that act is on his/her soul at the time of death, that person has chosen to live eternally without God and has damned him/herself. And that doesn’t just mean a procured abortion - it is also a grave sin to aid someone in obtaining a procured abortion or in performing the abortion.

BTW, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

OK, that’s a big fat “don’t know” then!

I don’t need to do any studying, it’s fairly obvious to me that abortion is a greater evil than contraception. Seems quite straightforward to me.

Maybe you should “contemplate” a bit - you do know how to contemplate, don’t you?

Sancta Maria! Sancta Maria,
mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I haven’t.

Because I don’t agree with the strict deontological approach.

There’s the deontological approach and the consequentialist/utilitarian approach to ethics. I favour versions of consequentialism eg rule consequentialism, virtue ethics, etc. Neither can be proven to be corrrect as such.

Why did you change your signature? You say it’s not wrong to ask questions, but there must be something wrong with answering them. All I’ve seen you do in this thread is play word games.

The other poster asked you what “deontological” is; not how to use it in a sentence!

Sancta Maria! Sancta Maria,
mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Edit to post #64:

I didn’t complete my post. Sorry.

About contraception: the use of contraception is a grave sin. And once again, if a person uses contraception with full knowledge and intent, and dies with that sin on his/her soul, that person has chosen to live eternally without God and has damned him/herself to hell.

God is loving and considerate. If you don’t want to be with Him, He won’t force you.

Ave Maria! Sancta Maria,
mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[Christopher68]

You are correct. Sex does have some other bonuses. But do you think sex would exist if we reproduced in some other manner? No. It wouldn’t. There’d be absolutely no point.

Do I think sex would exist if we reproduced in some other manner? Absolutely, and I would venture a guess that 99.9% of the population would be in agreement. You say there is no point??? How about bonding with your partner, pleasuring your partner, enjoying pleasure in return, etc.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Why did you change your signature? You say it’s not wrong to ask questions, but there must be something wrong with answering them. All I’ve seen you do in this thread is play word games.

The other poster asked you what “deontological” is; not how to use it in a sentence!

sorry, do I need ur permission to change my signature?

play word games? not at all. could you point out one example of “playing word games”?

…and that person can look “deontological” on google and educate themselves!

 

[Doc_Keele]

Doc, it is very simple. They are both grave sins. I’m surprised you don’t know this, as you are a Carmelite Novice

How do you manage to miss the point so spectacularly?

The very specific question I asked was which is the worse/more evil sin? Did I ask whether either or both are grave sins? NO.

So no, it’s not very simple - unless you miss the point completely.

This is why words are important - and why you think I’m playing word game perhaps
I’m not, it’s just you don’t understand the point I’m making. For whatever reason

 

[LittleSoldier]

sorry, do I need ur permission to change my signature?

Oh, that’s OK. Yes, you do need my permission to change your signature. You didn’t know that? Wow, I thought everyone knew that!!

Didn’t we have this same problem in another thread? I asked you a question. That is a sentence with a question mark at the end. If I knew why you changed your signature I wouldn’t be asking why you changed it. The reason I asked you about changing your signature should have become clear from the rest of my post. I never stated (with the exception of the above remarks) that you needed my permission to change your signature. Of course you don’t! My point is that you changed it to state “It’s not wrong to ask questions” but when someone asks you a question you never (IMHO) give a straight answer.

play word games? not at all. could you point out one example of “playing word games”?

…and that person can look “deontological” on google and educate themselves!

OK, here’s an example of a word game you play. The poster asked for a definition. You could have told him/her to google it, but you didn’t. Instead you posted some obscure, abstruse terms which most people here don’t understand (including me). It would have been much kinder to simply provide a definition of “deontological” instead of going to the work of writing a statement with more undefined words. I know you’re not stupid; surely you know that if a person does not understand the meaning of “deontological” they most likely are not going to understand the meaning of the other terms you used.

Why not answer the poster’s question in a way that everyone, including the lurkers, would understand? Why not tell the poster to google the word? Why the addition of even more abstruse terms? You didn’t answer the poster’s question at all. Not one bit. All he/she wanted was a definition but you didn’t provide that.

Anyone reading the posts in this thread could come to several conclusions: you are showing off your “superior” knowledge, you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re attempting to cloud the issue for some reason. But I don’t think anybody would conclude that you answered the poster’s question.

That is a word game.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

How do you manage to miss the point so spectacularly?

The very specific question I asked was which is the worse/more evil sin? Did I ask whether either or both are grave sins? NO.

So no, it’s not very simple - unless you miss the point completely.

This is why words are important - and why you think I’m playing word game perhaps
I’m not, it’s just you don’t understand the point I’m making. For whatever reason

Did I really miss the point? I didn’t think I missed it. But I will certainly accept the possibility that I did miss it. And if I really missed it then that could very well be why I think you play word games.

So please tell me what your point is and I will respond to that.

Sancta Maria! Sancta Maria, mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I just disagree, contraception is our friend. If we stopped making sex so taboo it would be seen for what it is - a private act of bonding to another.

But that’s the point - sex is not just a private act of bonding to each other. It *should *be a method to bring children into the world and a private act in which a married man bonds with the woman he is married to and vice versa.

There are also other reasons why sex is used: quite simply, it is to satisfy oneself with no regard to anyone else. That is why people masturbate, right? They aren’t bonding with themselves.

Sex is also used as a means to control other people, as in rape, as in withholding sex from a spouse as a means of punishment, a reason to put a notch in one’s bedpost…I can think of more.

But I think that sex should be used for two reasons only: (1) as a matter of procreation; (2) as a reflection of the marriage covenant. And I hope I am portraying Church teaching (and if I’m not, please tell me, somebody).

To remove sex from those two reasons is to use it in a way God did not intend for it to be used. To use contraception is to mess with what God created as a pure act of love and acceptance of the fostering of the children He sends via that act.

I don’t think sex is taboo! Not today, when it’s everywhere in ads, on tv programs during prime-time, on the Internet, when it’s in pornography, pedophilia, bestiality, when some men think that giving a date a dinner means that he should be rewarded via sex (on the first date), why some people don’t even wait until the first date, and on and on ad nauseum. All these things go on because many people can’t see beyond immediate gratification and they don’t understand why sex exists. It’s not taboo - it’s been cheapened.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Anyone reading the posts in this thread could come to several conclusions

No, these are your conclusions, which are affected by your resentment towards me for “making you look a fool” supposedly. Your bitterness comes through in all your posts now.

you are showing off your “superior” knowledge, you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re attempting to cloud the issue for some reason

…and you just come across as petty and spiteful. I am quite secure about what I do and don’t know, and I’m not going to get involved in some sort of adolescent contest. You whine about me not really knowing what I’m talking about, which means you should be able to demonstrate that quite easily instead of moaning about “abstruse” words (of which abstruse must surely be one?).

Stop being so bitter Little Soldier. I am not the cause of your problems.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Did I really miss the point? I didn’t think I missed it. But I will certainly accept the possibility that I did miss it. And if I really missed it then that could very well be why I think you play word games.

So please tell me what your point is and I will respond to it

Here you are again with these silly allegations. My point couldn’t be clearer. I am not disputing that abortion and contraception are grave sins at all, and that can easily be seen if one takes the time to read my posts.

Why I have to repeat the same cogent point time after time is beyond me, but I will do so for the sake of my sanity -
is abortion a worse/graver/more evil sin than contraception?

is there anything to misunderstand there?

I don’t think so.

 

[LittleSoldier]

No, these are your conclusions, which are affected by your resentment towards me for “making you look a fool” supposedly. Your bitterness comes through in all your posts now.
…and you just come across as petty and spiteful. I am quite secure about what I do and don’t know, and I’m not going to get involved in some sort of adolescent contest. You whine about me not really knowing what I’m talking about, which means you should be able to demonstrate that quite easily instead of moaning about “abstruse” words (of which abstruse must surely be one?).

Stop being so bitter Little Soldier. I am not the cause of your problems.

Here is a copy of the post you are responding to:
Re: Abortion and DUI

---

Doc Keele:
sorry, do I need ur permission to change my signature?

Me:
Oh, that’s OK. Yes, you do need my permission to change your signature. You didn’t know that? Wow, I thought everyone knew that!!

Didn’t we have this same problem in another thread? I asked you a question. That is a sentence with a question mark at the end. If I knew why you changed your signature I wouldn’t be asking why you changed it. The reason I asked you about changing your signature should have become clear from the rest of my post. I never stated (with the exception of the above remarks) that you needed my permission to change your signature. Of course you don’t! My point is that you changed it to state “It’s not wrong to ask questions” but when someone asks you a question you never (IMHO) give a straight answer.

Doc Keele:
play word games? not at all. could you point out one example of “playing word games”?

…and that person can look “deontological” on google and educate themselves!

Me:
OK, here’s an example of a word game you play. The poster asked for a definition. You could have told him/her to google it, but you didn’t. Instead you posted some obscure, abstruse terms which most people here don’t understand (including me). It would have been much kinder to simply provide a definition of “deontological” instead of going to the work of writing a statement with more undefined words. I know you’re not stupid; surely you know that if a person does not understand the meaning of “deontological” they most likely are not going to understand the meaning of the other terms you used.

Why not answer the poster’s question in a way that everyone, including the lurkers, would understand? Why not tell the poster to google the word? Why the addition of even more abstruse terms? You didn’t answer the poster’s question at all. Not one bit. All he/she wanted was a definition but you didn’t provide that.

Anyone reading the posts in this thread could come to several conclusions: you are showing off your “superior” knowledge, you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re attempting to cloud the issue for some reason. But I don’t think anybody would conclude that you answered the poster’s question.

That is a word game.

---

Boy, you just don’t get it. Where did I ever say these were my conclusions? I listed possible conclusions. I never stated which conclusion I have come to, and I have no intention of doing so. I have never said nor implied you are the cause of my “problems” (and I have *no *idea what you think my “problems” are). You are jumping to an illogical conclusion by implying you even have the power to make me have a grudge against you for making me look like a fool. That was quite awhile ago in my timeline and I haven’t even thought about it until I read your post and honestly I can’t even remember how you made me look like a fool. Nor do I care. I don’t carry grudges.

OK. You’ve stated what you think of me. Now let me tell you what I think of you. I have no bitterness towards you; I believe you are a loved child of a loving God and that you are precious. I think that anyone who has three cats is a good person - IMHO it is impossible to love cats and be a jerk. I also feel you have a problem in communication and that is why the other poster gave up and left. I told you why I believed that happened. Now I’m done.

Moaning? Petty? Bitter (twice)? Whining? Spiteful? Adolescent? Pure ad hominem attacks. You seem to have no problem listing others’ faults but when someone points out a problem in your posts, you appear to take a huge amount of offense. And as we all know, ad hominem attacks are usually the sign of desperation in someone who is losing a debate. I take no offense at your insults. If it makes you feel better, throw some more my way. You don’t have the power to upset me.

Someone asked you a question. You wouldn’t or couldn’t answer it. It would have been kind and charitable if you had answered. If that’s beyond you, it’s a loss to everyone who is trying to discover truth.

I suggest we not take this any further as it would be veering this thread off-topic and the thread might be closed. I don’t want that to happen.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Here you are again with these silly allegations. My point couldn’t be clearer. I am not disputing that abortion and contraception are grave sins at all, and that can easily be seen if one takes the time to read my posts.

Why I have to repeat the same cogent point time after time is beyond me, but I will do so for the sake of my sanity -
is abortion a worse/graver/more evil sin than contraception?

is there anything to misunderstand there?

I don’t think so.

Oh I see. My apologies. I did, indeed, miss your point. I’m not sure about the answer to your question but I will do my best to find someone who does know and then I will happily respond.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Sorry Little Soldier but it seemed the only explanation for your posts. I didn’t take kindly to your ad hominems, which you can understand of course.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Here you are again with these silly allegations. My point couldn’t be clearer. I am not disputing that abortion and contraception are grave sins at all, and that can easily be seen if one takes the time to read my posts.

Why I have to repeat the same cogent point time after time is beyond me, but I will do so for the sake of my sanity -
is abortion a worse/graver/more evil sin than contraception?

is there anything to misunderstand there?

I don’t think so.

I just received the answer I was looking for and will now share it with anyone who is interested.

The greater evil is abortion and that’s because it encompasses two evils: (1) a human being is murdered, and (2) it interferes with the intended reason for sexuality, which is communion between a man and a woman, and procreation. In contraception, the evil is that it interferes with procreation.

We must not procure abortions and we must not use contraception because both interfere with God’s gift of life. Allowing the use of contraception because it is “less evil” than abortion is wrong because the use of contraception is wrong.

Truth shows us that not only are abortion and contraception both evil, but human beings are not to choose the “lesser of two evils.” Both are anti-life, both are evil, both are grave matters, and neither can be chosen. We must always choose good.

I hoped I worded this correctly and that it answers your question.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I just received the answer I was looking for and will now share it with anyone who is interested.

The greater evil is abortion and that’s because it encompasses two evils: (1) a human being is murdered, and (2) it interferes with the intended reason for sexuality, which is communion between a man and a woman, and procreation. In contraception, the evil is that it interferes with procreation.

We must not procure abortions and we must not use contraception because both interfere with God’s gift of life. Allowing the use of contraception because it is “less evil” than abortion is wrong because the use of contraception is wrong.

Truth shows us that not only are abortion and contraception both evil, but human beings are not to choose the “lesser of two evils.” Both are anti-life, both are evil, both are grave matters, and neither can be chosen. We must always choose good.

I hoped I worded this correctly and that it answers your question.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

Hmmm, I wonder if I answered his question.