Abortion and Voting

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Capital punishment is not necessarily murder.

“The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and the duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense” (CCC).

“Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor” (CCC).
 
Did we ever reach consensus on this question? (Ha, like there is ever reach consensus on here!) Or at least a most likely answer 😉 Thanks!
Is it a mortal sin to vote for anyone, regardless of the political party, who is in favor of abortion? I have researched and cannot get a definate answer. Everyone seems to be dancing around that question.

I myself would never vote for anyone who is pro-abortion no matter what party, however, I have a few catholic friends that I am concerned about who are staunch one political party. I thought if I could get a definate answer from you that might help.

Thank you,
JJ:slapfight:
 
The pope may have endorsed the death penalty, but putting a human being to death by lethal injection, firing squad (gary gilmore) all result in the same. not comfortable with this.
:onpatrol: :onpatrol: P.P.S. The Pope has not “endorsed” the death penalty in a few hundred years.
 
Did we ever reach consensus on this question? (Ha, like there is ever reach consensus on here!) Or at least a most likely answer 😉 Thanks!
For anyone who takes the time to read what the Church has said there is a consensus. For those who put politics ahead of faith there is not.
 
Mortal sin? I am very much Pro-Life, is the position of the Church this is a mortal sin?
For anyone who takes the time to read what the Church has said there is a consensus. For those who put politics ahead of faith there is not.
 
Sorry but anyone who can justify the killing of children, the elderly, and pregnant women (and their babies) in wartime activities has no business talking about how he’s so pro-life.
I don’t think anyone has tried to “justify” the killing that happens during a war. But pro-abortionists try to justify the killing of the unborn under the pretext doing this will save the economy, save a woman from going through an undwanted pregnancy thus preventing future child abuse, etc. etc. etc.

BUT the Church has never said War is an Intrinsic evil, telling us to use our prudential judgement to decide the morality of it. They DO say abortion is not supportable under any condition and it IS an Intrinsic evil…
 
Mortal sin? I am very much Pro-Life, is the position of the Church this is a mortal sin?
if it meets these three conditions, yes:

“Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

There is no dispute that abortion is a grave matter. I guess there could be a situation where a person was so ignorant of Catholic teaching that they did not realize that voting for pro-abortion candidate was a grievous sin. But anyone who took the time to research the issue, which all Catholics should do, should know this.
 
if it meets these three conditions, yes:

“Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

There is no dispute that abortion is a grave matter. I guess there could be a situation where a person was so ignorant of Catholic teaching that they did not realize that voting for pro-abortion candidate was a grievous sin. But anyone who took the time to research the issue, which all Catholics should do, should know this.
Abortion is grave matter, but voting is not. From the CCC
1757 The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the three “sources” of the morality of human acts.
In the scenario posed the Object is voting, not abortion.

This requires that the intention and/or the circumstances be evaulated to determine a particular votes morality.

To me this means that any declaration that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is a grave matter presumes to judge the intention and circumstance without sufficient data to do so.

Note: In there is any doubt, I vote pro-life.
 
Abortion is grave matter, but voting is not. From the CCC
In the scenario posed the Object is voting, not abortion.

This requires that the intention and/or the circumstances be evaulated to determine a particular votes morality.

To me this means that any declaration that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is a grave matter presumes to judge the intention and circumstance without sufficient data to do so.

Note: In there is any doubt, I vote pro-life.
Well I guess if one ignored the faithful citizenship document, the direct comments of over 100 US Catholic bishops and the direct comments of the Pope one could say there was not sufficient data. Tthe truth is there was “not sufficient data” only for those who had already made up their minds to put their politics ahead of their faith or for those who made no effort whatsoever to find out what the teachings of the church was.
 
Well I guess if one ignored the faithful citizenship document, the direct comments of over 100 US Catholic bishops and the direct comments of the Pope one could say there was not sufficient data. Tthe truth is there was “not sufficient data” only for those who had already made up their minds to put their politics ahead of their faith or for those who made no effort whatsoever to find out what the teachings of the church was.
Who beside God, the person and their confessor can determine whether a persons “attitude” creates a circumstance of “grave matter” in the case of a vote. I’m not dismissing the guidance provided by our Church. I’m objecting to the automatic “its grave matter” label it is given.

Is there a direct quote in any of this materials that define unequivocally that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is de facto “grave matter”? Or does it, as I suspect, define the combination of circumstances and events that can be considered grave?
 
Who beside God, the person and their confessor can determine whether a persons “attitude” creates a circumstance of “grave matter” in the case of a vote. I’m not dismissing the guidance provided by our Church. I’m objecting to the automatic “its grave matter” label it is given.

Is there a direct quote in any of this materials that define unequivocally that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is de facto “grave matter”? Or does it, as I suspect, define the combination of circumstances and events that can be considered grave?
So you would have us punish those who ran the gas chambers but not those who hired them.
 
So you would have us punish those who ran the gas chambers but not those who hired them.
I don’t know. Your provided too little info.

Was running the gas chamber the thing they were hired to do? Or was this something they took on by themselves?
Was it the only thing they were required to do?

Is the elected official compelled to only enact those things that they espoused, or are they subject to persuasion to the contrary?

Do we know any politicians who have, or will procure an abortion?

How does the probability of imposing their particular view on the country factor in?
 
I don’t know. Your provided too little info.

Was running the gas chamber the thing they were hired to do? Or was this something they took on by themselves?
Was it the only thing they were required to do?

Is the elected official compelled to only enact those things that they espoused, or are they subject to persuasion to the contrary?

Do we know any politicians who have, or will procure an abortion?

How does the probability of imposing their particular view on the country factor in?
A perfect example of the convoluted thought process of those who vote for those who support intrinsic evil while at the same time claiming to oppose that evil .
 
Abortion was never refered to being the word of God until the 1980’s with the self professed preachers such as Jerry Faldwel. The bible actually does not say much anything about abortion.
It does use the word womb. God said to Paul, “I knew you when you were in the womb”. That is the closest scripture the self professed teachers of the bible can come to, but the real intent of that scripture was the Lord telling Paul that he was a prophet of the Lord and that is why he knew him before he was born.
The scripture of Lot clearly says “Lord, why did you let me be born. You should have taken me from the womb to the grave and it would be as if I was never born”. that pretty much says like the bible saYs many times that life begins with the breath. That is when we start counting how old we are and that is also when we are pronounced dead is with the last breath. I do not know why the self professed preachers need to add to and take away from the word to make their dreams be taught and not the true word. the truth lasts forever and woe to anyone who adds to or takes away from the word.
 
Abortion was never refered to being the word of God until the 1980’s with the self professed preachers such as Jerry Faldwel. The bible actually does not say much anything about abortion.
It does use the word womb. God said to Paul, “I knew you when you were in the womb”. That is the closest scripture the self professed teachers of the bible can come to, but the real intent of that scripture was the Lord telling Paul that he was a prophet of the Lord and that is why he knew him before he was born.
The scripture of Lot clearly says “Lord, why did you let me be born. You should have taken me from the womb to the grave and it would be as if I was never born”. that pretty much says like the bible saYs many times that life begins with the breath. That is when we start counting how old we are and that is also when we are pronounced dead is with the last breath. I do not know why the self professed preachers need to add to and take away from the word to make their dreams be taught and not the true word. the truth lasts forever and woe to anyone who adds to or takes away from the word.
The Catholic Church has taught that abortion was a grevious sin since the first century. In fact up until the latter part of the 20th century every major Christian religion taught the same. The idea that this is a creation of Jerry Falwell is specious .

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that life begins before we draw the first breath:

Jeremiah 1:5 , "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Isaiah 49:1 The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me."


**Luke 1:41"when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb". **

Luke 1:15 15 : for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.a]
 
According to the bible, life begins at birth–when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as “breath”. See Genesis 2: 7, Job 33: 4, Palms 104: 29: Acts 17: 25. This is also the time that all civilizations start counting the days from how old we all are, is at the first breath.
All civilizations also pronounce our deaths with the last breath we take.
THE BIBLE NEVER MENTIONS ABORTION, BUT DOES MENTION BEING IN THE WOMB. (SEE BELOW EXAMPLES OF BEING IN THE WOMB FROM THE BIBLE)
“Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire? Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck? For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then, I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth, who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master.”
Job 3:2-4,11-19

Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not been, carried from womb to tomb."

Job 10:18-19
Christians to defend their cause. From the book of Jeremiah, are fond of quoting the phrase, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,” from the first chapter. But they never quote the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably:
“Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.”

Jeremiah 1:4-10

This is a special event – the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God was planning Jeremiah’s life “before” he was even conceived. God was preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and kingdoms. But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as individual people while still in the womb. God saw Jeremiah in that way, but to claim it applies to all of us is akin to saying that we were all prepared as children to speak for God, and that God has placed all of us “over the nations and over the kingdoms” of the world. In essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is to claim that we are all God’s divine prophets. We are not; therefore, we cannot apply these verses to our own lives.
Another problem in this passage is the phrase, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.” In Psalm 139:13-16 the anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of King David in his mother’s womb that we must conclude the fetus is recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that he knew Jeremiah “before” he was formed in the womb. By anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting these verses incorrectly.
 
Questions:

What if there are two candidates with one who will allow abortion and the other candidate in favor of capital punishment. Is one better than the other? If both in the end murder a human being, does one take precedent over the other? This is actually a possibility where I live.
Abortion is always, without exception, and in every case the greater crime and always a MORTAL SIN.

Why: It is the premeditated MURDER of a defenceless baby.

Capitol Punishment on the other hand, is the results of proven criminal activity, worthy of the death penality, in the judgement of the State, the Court, and the Juriors.

Not even close to being the same thing, in the context presented.

Just as one is permitted to argue and judge on a “just-war,” so might one hold a differing opinion on CP.

The RCC does not support either, yet permits both in specific circumstances. NOT SO with Abortion!👍
 
According to the bible, life begins at birth–when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as “breath”. See Genesis 2: 7, Job 33: 4, Palms 104: 29: Acts 17: 25. This is also the time that all civilizations start counting the days from how old we all are, is at the first breath.
All civilizations also pronounce our deaths with the last breath we take.
THE BIBLE NEVER MENTIONS ABORTION, BUT DOES MENTION BEING IN THE WOMB. (SEE BELOW EXAMPLES OF BEING IN THE WOMB FROM THE BIBLE)
“Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire? Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck? For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then, I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth, who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master.”
Job 3:2-4,11-19

Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not been, carried from womb to tomb."

Job 10:18-19
Christians to defend their cause. From the book of Jeremiah, are fond of quoting the phrase, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,” from the first chapter. But they never quote the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably:
“Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.”

Jeremiah 1:4-10

This is a special event – the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God was planning Jeremiah’s life “before” he was even conceived. God was preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and kingdoms. But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as individual people while still in the womb. God saw Jeremiah in that way, but to claim it applies to all of us is akin to saying that we were all prepared as children to speak for God, and that God has placed all of us “over the nations and over the kingdoms” of the world. In essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is to claim that we are all God’s divine prophets. We are not; therefore, we cannot apply these verses to our own lives.
Another problem in this passage is the phrase, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.” In Psalm 139:13-16 the anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of King David in his mother’s womb that we must conclude the fetus is recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that he knew Jeremiah “before” he was formed in the womb. By anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting these verses incorrectly.
Failure to refute any of the passage quoted noted. I will have to admit that this is the very first time I have seen a pro-abortion post claim that opposing abortion was the creation of Jerry Falwell.
 
Abortion is grave matter, but voting is not. From the CCC
In the scenario posed the Object is voting, not abortion.

This requires that the intention and/or the circumstances be evaulated to determine a particular votes morality.

To me this means that any declaration that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is a grave matter presumes to judge the intention and circumstance without sufficient data to do so.

Note: In there is any doubt, I vote pro-life.
The Pope, The Church and the Bishops teach:

"2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish."

“2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”

“2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.”

The "only option a Catholic or Christian is OBEDIENCE…period!

Anything esle is cooperation with MURDER! Not an act of Love!
 
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